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      10-31-2019, 12:27 PM   #1
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BMW M Boss Says No to M2 Gran Coupe and FWD M Cars

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BMW M Boss Says No to M2 Gran Coupe and FWD M Cars
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BMW M head Markus Flasch was asked at the recent M Festival in South Africa whether BMW's FWD architecture based vehicles would be suitable as full blown M models. "No, it's not," Flasch said, according to CarAdvice.com.au.

This of course means that there is no M2 Gran Coupe planned as the 2 Series Gran Coupe shares the same front drive platform as the 1 Series hatchback. On this, Flasch said: "We have a very strong offering in the M2 so we figure there’s no need to have [both] a high-performance car based on the [rear-wheel drive] 2-Series [Coupe] and then a performance car based on the [front-drive-based] 1-Series."

Looks like the 2 Series Gran Coupe will top out at the M235i xDrive Gran Coupe.

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      10-31-2019, 12:53 PM   #2
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This confirms what we had already concluded given comments from past BMW M Division front men.

Sure, a high performance vehicle based on a FWD chassis is generally going to give up something in terms of dynamics to one based on a RWD chassis. But is it really better to punt entirely in this market than it is to come up with something that makes the best of the platform? Mercedes and Audi have answered that question with a resounding "No!".

Moreover, BMW has been hyping the flexibility of their vehicle architectures - including the FAAR architecture that the 1 Series and 2 Series Gran Coupe are built on - with specific regard to ease with which they can support not just hybrid drive but pure electric drive as well. So, why not jump in here and develop a high performance electric sedan that is smaller than any that exist or are coming in the near future? Not only would that give you a USP, but a dual motor electric drive setup would (at least in theory) allow for a RWD biased all wheel drive setup or even (again, in theory) a single motor true RWD setup in vehicle class that was here-to-for burdened with a FWD-biased Haldex system at best. BMW seems to be trying to convince us that such a possibility is just a matter of simple plug-and-play. So let's see it BMW.
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      10-31-2019, 01:50 PM   #3
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Let's mark this thread and return in 6-8 years to discuss

If the CLA45 outsells the M235i Gran Coupe/M2/M240i Coupe they will for sure reconsider a FWD-biased true M.
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      10-31-2019, 02:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feddersen View Post
Let's mark this thread and return in 6-8 years to discuss
By that time, automakers will almost surely be releasing vehicles like the one I describe in my post above. Hopefully BMW will be among them.

Quote:
If the CLA45 outsells the M235i Gran Coupe/M2/M240i Coupe they will for sure reconsider a FWD-biased true M.
You forgot the CLA35 and A35 which are in the same market segment that BMW will target with the M235i.

Furthermore, I suspect you will find it very difficult (if not impossible) to find sales numbers for the individual trim levels that we are considering here. I know for sure that BMW does not release those numbers.
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      10-31-2019, 02:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You forgot the CLA35 and A35 which are in the same market segment that BMW will target with the M235i.

Furthermore, I suspect you will find it very difficult (if not impossible) to find sales numbers for the individual trim levels that we are considering here. I know for sure that BMW does not release those numbers.
I think you missed his point. He is saying that when the top of the line of Mercedes (CLA 45 AMG) outsells the M235 because it has significantly more power/capability, they may reconsider. He is not ignoring the middle tier CLAs just comparing top offering to top offering I believe.
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      10-31-2019, 02:34 PM   #6
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All makes sense to me
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      10-31-2019, 02:37 PM   #7
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In 2013 BMW said there will be no non-SUV Ms with AWD:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=805747

Money talks and if a FWD based M will sell they will make it.

BTW: It took about 5 minutes to find the exact sales figures per make/model of 2018 in Germany. They are published here: https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahr...ller_node.html (only in German)
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      10-31-2019, 02:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
I think you missed his point. He is saying that when the top of the line of Mercedes (CLA 45 AMG) outsells the M235 because it has significantly more power/capability, they may reconsider. He is not ignoring the middle tier CLAs just comparing top offering to top offering I believe.
If that was his point, it's a terribly weak one.

It would be a bit like a hypothetical situation where there were no M3, and the response to that being something like, "Well maybe if the C63 outsells the M340i, BMW will reconsider and decide to bring an M3 to market". The folly there is that the top tier rarely if ever outsells the middle tier - that's fairly fundamental to how tiered pricing/segmentation works - but it certainly does not mean that there is no business case for the top tier.
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      10-31-2019, 02:47 PM   #9
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I think there should be an E36 sized 4 door M car......
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      10-31-2019, 02:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feddersen View Post
Money talks and if a FWD based M will sell they will make it.
The money has already spoken. The first generation CLA (including the CLA45) sold so well that they have not just debuted a second generation, but added the CLA35 to the lineup. But that wasn't even the genesis. The RS3 and TT RS have existed for multiple generations - since long before the Mercedes models - and have sold briskly. Still not convincing enough? The same powertrains have been applied to the hot selling SUV form factor in the form of the GLA45 (and soon, a new GLB45) and RS Q3 (in both standard and now coupe form factor).

So, no, this is most definitely not about the lack of sales data or proven product. This is about BMW product planners falling asleep at the wheel. That same long snooze, incidentally, caused them to come dreadfully late to the party with the 2 Series GC.

Quote:
BTW: It took about 5 minutes to find the exact sales figures per make/model of 2018 in Germany. They are published here: https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahr...ller_node.html (only in German)
That's great. But you won't find US numbers, and I suspect you'll have a difficult time finding numbers for other regions that account for a significant portion of BMW's worldwide M and M Performance vehicle sales as well.
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      10-31-2019, 03:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feddersen View Post
Let's mark this thread and return in 6-8 years to discuss

If the CLA45 outsells the M235i Gran Coupe/M2/M240i Coupe they will for sure reconsider a FWD-biased true M.
Check back in 6-8 months ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 535i MSport View Post
I think there should be an E36 sized 4 door M car......
And it should be REAR WHEEL DRIVE ..

Yes. An M2 SEDAN is needed.

BMW NA AND USA are simply ignoring previous customers/consumers that want this while they hope that buyers decide to just give up and order a 3 series sedan or an X vehicle.

Meanwhile , buyers of E36. sedan, E46 sedan and E90 sedan be . Awaiting a suitable replacement....

I've got a news " FLASCH" for you MARKUS..
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      10-31-2019, 03:13 PM   #12
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This is so messed up, BMW should sort things out here.
Why would we have 2 different drive-train within one model 2er?
Front wheel and rear wheel 2 series at the same time/generation?
From marketing perspective, this is really terrible..
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      10-31-2019, 03:14 PM   #13
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Thank you BMW gods...we didn't need either of these options.
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      10-31-2019, 03:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrgunfun View Post
This is so messed up, BMW should sort things out here.
Why would we have 2 different drive-train within one model 2er?
Front wheel and rear wheel 2 series at the same time/generation?
From marketing perspective, this is really terrible..

I'm Not sure how this got approved by corporate heads either. It would have been simpler and numerically appropriate to make a 1er sedan out of this FWD " gran coupe " platform.
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      10-31-2019, 03:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I'm Not sure how this got passed by corporate heads either. It would have been simpler and numerically appropriate to make a 1er sedan out of this FWD " gran coupe " platform.
Well, these are the same corporate heads who approved the hideous 4-series concept so let's not give them too much credit.
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      10-31-2019, 03:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I'm Not sure how this got approved by corporate heads either.
Because the previous CEO sucked and was fired. Not sure if the new one is any better.
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      10-31-2019, 03:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I'm Not sure how this got passed by corporate heads either. It would have been simpler and numerically appropriate to make a 1er sedan out of this FWD " gran coupe " platform.
Well, these are the same corporate heads who approved the hideous 4-series concept so let's not give them too much credit.
Yes. The same poor/odd decision making was involved with making the sedan a 3 series and the coupe a 4 series... just ahead of the 30th anniversary of the M3 ... which began as a coupe ...
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      10-31-2019, 03:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrgunfun View Post
This is so messed up, BMW should sort things out here.
Why would we have 2 different drive-train within one model 2er?
Front wheel and rear wheel 2 series at the same time/generation?

From marketing perspective, this is really terrible..
The short answer to that is that they determined that they needed to move their volume models in the small vehicle range to a more space efficient and lower cost platform in order to compete against similar products from other manufacturers, while at the same time they could not afford to abandon RWD for the lower volume enthusiast coupe form factor because that would risk alienating core customers.

If insiders are to be believed, there was a non-trivial contingent in the company that supported moving the coupe (and convertible, if it were not being EOL'd) to FAAR. But they were outnumbered by those who wanted to move it to CLAR instead.
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      10-31-2019, 03:58 PM   #19
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Bummer.

I was looking forward to a PHEV ///M Car.
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      10-31-2019, 04:15 PM   #20
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      10-31-2019, 04:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feddersen View Post
Let's mark this thread and return in 6-8 years to discuss

If the CLA45 outsells the M235i Gran Coupe/M2/M240i Coupe they will for sure reconsider a FWD-biased true M.
Check back in 6-8 months ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 535i MSport View Post
I think there should be an E36 sized 4 door M car......
And it should be REAR WHEEL DRIVE ..

Yes. An M2 SEDAN is needed.

BMW NA AND USA are simply ignoring previous customers/consumers that want this while they hope that buyers decide to just give up and order a 3 series sedan or an X vehicle.

Meanwhile , buyers of E36. sedan, E46 sedan and E90 sedan be . Awaiting a suitable replacement....

I've got a news " FLASCH" for you MARKUS..
I was an e90 buyer and now in an M2, thankfully the rear seats are enough to accommodate my 2 small children but I worry about my choices in 4 or so years when I'm ready to replace the M2. I'm a rear drive purist and there are fewer and fewer choices.
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      10-31-2019, 04:36 PM   #22
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Coulda sworn we had this same discussion a few months ago...
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