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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions Anyone tried the 318i yet?

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      04-04-2020, 05:02 PM   #1
vatdim
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Anyone tried the 318i yet?

Hello guys.

I've been lurking around the web and checking out how the G20 is evolving. It seems like a really nice platform overall, but I'm having some difficulties choosing an engine. For now I'm pretty sure I want a petrol. I was almost set on a 320i, since 330i seems a bit expensive and, you know, stressed (258 bhp out of 2 liters)?

I noticed BMW slightly increased 320i and 330i prices and introduced 318i in the start of the year. It appears that the 318i still has a 4-cylinder engine, pretty much the same 2-liter B48 as in the 320i, but it's further detuned to 156 bhp? The discount on its MSRP is quite nice and, possibly with a conservative tune it could reach at least 200 bhp?

What do you guys think? Has anyone tried this car yet? What are the main differences to the 320i and what would you recommend I should get?
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      04-04-2020, 05:27 PM   #2
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Probably not many hand on experiences yet and probably not an engine of choice for the real enthousiasts here.
Nevertheless, I'am really super glad they abandoned the 3-pot 1.5l of the F30 LCI. The 2.0 engine of the 318i will probably have the same potential as the one in the 320i/30i except probably a lesser turbo.
There are no stage 1 tunes available yet, but it seems very realistic to believe they will come soon with 200hp/300Nm or more. Putting it direct on the level of the 320i.

Last edited by KoenG; 04-04-2020 at 06:13 PM..
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      04-04-2020, 05:43 PM   #3
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Didn't answer your question. LOL

Since you drive a E34 525i with 192hp and 250Nm that comes in rather late (you need high rpm to get the torque awake), a 318iA will feel lighter and nimbler during all circumstances. The turbo brings the torque much sooner and the 8-step ZF is the best transmission you can pair with such an engine. Your consumption will drop with -25% also, but the smooth 6 inline sound will be replaced with a more muted noise. I much prefer torque above noise.

In Belgium, the price delta between the 18i and 20i is almost 5000€ and this is too much to my opinion. I would buy the 318i and after half a year, would add the stage 1 tune.
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      04-04-2020, 05:53 PM   #4
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BTW, you could also get a mildly pre-used 330i with some options for the money that would buy you a new 318i. That would be my preference since it will drive also very differently.

About "the 30i is a stressed engine". I wouldn't worry about that, there are many 2.0l engines with more output and BMW has been testing and evolving this set-up for years now. This is probably their top seller in the range currently and not the engine for which they would like to take uncontrolled reliability risks.
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      04-05-2020, 04:53 AM   #5
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Don't worry about the 330i being 'stressed'.

It is an absolute peach of a motor.
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      04-06-2020, 03:45 PM   #6
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Thank you for your input guys. Especially thank you Koen for sharing your opinion with respect to my current E34. While I've had nothing but fun with it, it's getting a bit tiring to care for this car as a daily driver and I'd like to retire it to the weekend / fun trips category for both peace of mind and some more comfort (I'm getting tired switching those gears and kicking that clutch, as rewarding as it may be on the backroads).

Yes, in fact probably buying a mildly used 330i will be a very good idea. Still, possibly for the same price, a 318i would allow me to cramp all the nice options (color and interior wise), and still have a full 5-year warranty period, while, as you said, I could easily do a stage 1 tune to make up for the power differential to the 320i at least. It's what I've been contemplating and that's why I came to this board, hoping that perhaps someone may already have had personal experience with the 318i.

I have driven 3s before (hell, I learned to drive on one), but I have never actually owned one before. Another option I am contemplating would be to go for a used G30 later in the year and after people start returning leased ones to get the LCI, but I'm not sure if I'll like such a bulky car.

How do you guys find the build quality of the G20? What should one expect in comparison with, let's say, the Kia Stinger, which is relatively in the same price segment as the 3 and seems to be a bit in between the 3 and 5 in terms of size?
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      04-06-2020, 04:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
Yes, in fact probably buying a mildly used 330i will be a very good idea. Still, possibly for the same price, a 318i would allow me to cramp all the nice options (color and interior wise), and still have a full 5-year warranty period, while, as you said, I could easily do a stage 1 tune to make up for the power differential to the 320i at least. It's what I've been contemplating and that's why I came to this board, hoping that perhaps someone may already have had personal experience with the 318i.
I've just did a 5min search and you can find several 330i, on average 8 months old with less than 15000kms. They are all still under warranty and you can negotiate an extra european universal warranty, equal to the one that BMW offers, with the selling party to cover problems after 2 years. When they don't accept it, you can buy it yourself (My BMW dealership told me that this is about 500€/yr).

Most importantly, I see that the price went from ~55k€ new to ~35k€ mildly used already. The big price depreciation is already paid for by somebody else! And although the 318iA stage 1 is nice, the 330i is nicer.
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      04-06-2020, 05:16 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
Another option I am contemplating would be to go for a used G30 later in the year and after people start returning leased ones to get the LCI, but I'm not sure if I'll like such a bulky car.

How do you guys find the build quality of the G20? What should one expect in comparison with, let's say, the Kia Stinger, which is relatively in the same price segment as the 3 and seems to be a bit in between the 3 and 5 in terms of size?
When you are used to the E34, the G30 will not feel anything like a heavy bulky car. You'll be astonished how crisp and light it feels. The G30 is a better (wrt G20) when it comes down to road composure and flegmatics, and obviously... space. A 5 series is a relaxing experience, you can even feel this in an M5 on 20inch wheels! Some also stated that the G30 uses better materials and feels a bit more upmarket but I doubt it's that obvious and exposed. You can find a lot 530i for about 35k€ also with less than 20000km on the odometer.

The G20 has mildly better vehicle dynamics seen it's a bit lighter and a bit tighter in the suspension. That was the big USP from the 3-series and with the G20, they have put it back on top as first differentiator.

The Kia is also a very nice car. And although I wanted the Stinger to really be a BMW challenger I believe today it's not. All tests I've read point in that direction: it's slower, it's not as efficient and it consumes 15% more, it feels less nimble, it depreciates faster leading to a (much) higher TCO. Also typical for Koreans, I guarantee that the model lifecycle is at best 5 years. On top, they are still searching for brand and design identity since today like in the past, they have NONE. In spite of this, still a nice drive oriented car, but not on par with the G20.
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      04-08-2020, 03:52 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
When you are used to the E34, the G30 will not feel anything like a heavy bulky car. You'll be astonished how crisp and light it feels. The G30 is a better (wrt G20) when it comes down to road composure and flegmatics, and obviously... space. A 5 series is a relaxing experience, you can even feel this in an M5 on 20inch wheels! Some also stated that the G30 uses better materials and feels a bit more upmarket but I doubt it's that obvious and exposed. You can find a lot 530i for about 35k€ also with less than 20000km on the odometer.

The G20 has mildly better vehicle dynamics seen it's a bit lighter and a bit tighter in the suspension. That was the big USP from the 3-series and with the G20, they have put it back on top as first differentiator.

The Kia is also a very nice car. And although I wanted the Stinger to really be a BMW challenger I believe today it's not. All tests I've read point in that direction: it's slower, it's not as efficient and it consumes 15% more, it feels less nimble, it depreciates faster leading to a (much) higher TCO. Also typical for Koreans, I guarantee that the model lifecycle is at best 5 years. On top, they are still searching for brand and design identity since today like in the past, they have NONE. In spite of this, still a nice drive oriented car, but not on par with the G20.
This is very useful, thanks for sharing!

I have seen a number of 530i G30s even at about 30k EUR in the last few weeks and with the corona-induced crisis and the upcoming LCI, I would expect such cars to sell for even less in about 6 months. I have also heard talk of this higher quality materials being used even in lower trim versions of the 5, as compared to higher trim versions of the 3. With some warranty thrown in the mix, I'd be quite tempted.

I see the main issue of the Stinger as its questionable (to me) build quality (although that is countered, to a degree, by the 7-year warranty), and possibly its resale value. Fuel consumption is also an issue for me, but I need to run the numbers because I have the feeling that the lower price point vs a G20 of similar power / trim version is going to make up for it, at least when considered up to a reasonable annual mileage.

Looks like I'm going to have to do some maths and hopefully a few test drives after this current crisis gets resolved.
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      04-08-2020, 05:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
I see the main issue of the Stinger as its questionable (to me) build quality (although that is countered, to a degree, by the 7-year warranty), and possibly its resale value. Fuel consumption is also an issue for me, but I need to run the numbers because I have the feeling that the lower price point vs a G20 of similar power / trim version is going to make up for it, at least when considered up to a reasonable annual mileage.

Looks like I'm going to have to do some maths and hopefully a few test drives after this current crisis gets resolved.
I presumed that resale value is not that important to you, seen the long term experience you built with the e34. But when you also add this to the mix, the Stinger becomes a more expensive to run "mimic" of a BMW.... just not as good in most aspects. Haptical perceived material quality is just one of them. When you compare a Stinger 2.0 with a 330i, you'll read in (all) tests that the 330i is really a full step up against the Stinger while it's certainly significant more frugal.

Be aware also: Asian cars have longer warranty, but their failure rate on longer term is higher. Also the cost of repair beyond warranty could be horrendous!
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      04-12-2020, 03:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
I presumed that resale value is not that important to you, seen the long term experience you built with the e34. But when you also add this to the mix, the Stinger becomes a more expensive to run "mimic" of a BMW.... just not as good in most aspects. Haptical perceived material quality is just one of them. When you compare a Stinger 2.0 with a 330i, you'll read in (all) tests that the 330i is really a full step up against the Stinger while it's certainly significant more frugal.

Be aware also: Asian cars have longer warranty, but their failure rate on longer term is higher. Also the cost of repair beyond warranty could be horrendous!
Thanks for the heads-up! Yes, I'm pretty sure that if I go with an Asian car, it will have to be on an until warranty runs out basis. I'm aware of the quality differential, but it is still hard to justify the approx. EUR 7,500-10,000 price differential between a 330i and a Stinger 2.0 with the same equipment. Just based on reduced fuel costs, the Bimmer doesn't make economic sense up to my projected mileage (20,000-25,000 km per year, most of which extraurban). I've also recently learned Kia are supposedly releasing a facelifted version of the Stinger this year with some new engines, so I might wait with my buying decision to see how this plays out.

In the meantime, still looking for any first-hand experiences with the 318i.
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      04-14-2020, 03:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
In the meantime, still looking for any first-hand experiences with the 318i.
Chances are low: I didn't read any review yet so I presume it's not yet in delivery. Also, this is a US forum, in which the 318i is not offered and a 330i is already considered barely enough for daily driving.
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      04-14-2020, 04:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
EUR 7,500-10,000 price differential between a 330i and a Stinger 2.0 with the same equipment. Just based on reduced fuel costs, the Bimmer doesn't make economic sense up to my projected mileage (20,000-25,000 km per year, most of which extraurban).
Hmmmm.

What I'm reading here is: you've had great BMW experience so far. You'll spend a lot of time on the road outside of towns and cities. And you're comparing KIA and BMW, to decide where you'll spend, at average, let's say 60 km/h, 400+ hours per year. That's not a small number of hours.

There is really no comparison. This is just my opinion of course, but for my time at the wheel, I wouldn't even think about "economic sense" if I can regularly afford it. Life is something that gets shorter every day and our days on this planet can't be rewinded. In this situation, I would wait a little bit, find some good opportunity for 330i and keep enjoying life.

I don't know where you live, but my country is not very prosperous. And never, never I regretted following my guts, even if it costs more. Yes, money is important, but it fades with time, and memories stay. If you had 525i and if you're on this forum, you're an enthusiast and car probably means more that A->B. KIA has no place in that environment.

I repeat: this is only my opinion and I'm not trying to show off or something. Of course you're free to do whatever... And I wish you luck.
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      04-16-2020, 05:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by klokan View Post
Hmmmm.

What I'm reading here is: you've had great BMW experience so far. You'll spend a lot of time on the road outside of towns and cities. And you're comparing KIA and BMW, to decide where you'll spend, at average, let's say 60 km/h, 400+ hours per year. That's not a small number of hours.

There is really no comparison. This is just my opinion of course, but for my time at the wheel, I wouldn't even think about "economic sense" if I can regularly afford it. Life is something that gets shorter every day and our days on this planet can't be rewinded. In this situation, I would wait a little bit, find some good opportunity for 330i and keep enjoying life.

I don't know where you live, but my country is not very prosperous. And never, never I regretted following my guts, even if it costs more. Yes, money is important, but it fades with time, and memories stay. If you had 525i and if you're on this forum, you're an enthusiast and car probably means more that A->B. KIA has no place in that environment.

I repeat: this is only my opinion and I'm not trying to show off or something. Of course you're free to do whatever... And I wish you luck.
Thanks for that perspective. I think you're right about me - I do consider myself an enthusiast Still, while a few years ago I wouldn't even consider a Kia in my wildest dreams, the Stinger is something else in my opinion. It's a mostly European design, carried out by people with their roots in BMW and Audi. Many much greater enthusiasts seem perfectly happy with the Stinger. As for me - I like its styling and hatchback practicality, as well as its RWD architecture.

But if it happens to combine sportiness, RWD goodness and style, it's difficult to justify the extra cost of a BMW - especially when we are talking about a comparison between a car of up to 330i level of trim (2 liter turbocharged I4 engine capable of 255 bhp) vs a Stinger 2.0 (still a 2 liter turbocharged I4 engine capable of 255 bhp). Both cars feature 8-speed automatic gearboxes and RWD dynamics. But the Kia would have at least 2 years more under warranty, which makes it more dependable as a long-term purchase. And after so many years of owning an older out of warranty vehicle, I would like my next vehicle to be dependable for my daily commutes, as well as for my road trips.

The higher price of an equivalent BMW also means higher insurance costs, and my practice and some websites suggest the overall maintenance cost of a Bimmer would also be greater than that of a Stinger. While I'm an enthusiast, it is difficult to justify the level of expense associated with a more modern BMW than the one I currently have.

All that being said, I definitely am not settled, I'm just exploring options for the time being. I fully realize that BMWs feature a lot more options in terms of interior styling, and I believe they offer better quality materials inside. Their engines are more refined and much more efficient, their handling is tighter and the included technology is a few steps ahead of newer competitors like Kia. I've also been happy with BMW service at their dealerships so far, and I think they offer a better customer experience as a whole.

It was this debate in my head that made me look for possible alternatives and "in-between" options such as the 320i or even the 318i with a good tune - options that would allow me to utilize the pros of owning a newer BMW (efficient engines, quality materials and better customization of the interior, good customer services) while remaining at the more prudent price level of a Stinger - of course, at the cost of some horsepower. I could see myself bearing such a cost in case these lower trim models are in fact decent and enjoyable to drive, while retaining good build quality.
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      04-18-2020, 08:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
It was this debate in my head that made me look for possible alternatives and "in-between" options such as the 320i or even the 318i with a good tune - options that would allow me to utilize the pros of owning a newer BMW (efficient engines, quality materials and better customization of the interior, good customer services) while remaining at the more prudent price level of a Stinger - of course, at the cost of some horsepower. I could see myself bearing such a cost in case these lower trim models are in fact decent and enjoyable to drive, while retaining good build quality.
I think you have to run the TCO math like you already stated. A mildly used 530i or 330i are both offering all the known BMW virtues. I personally would also love to drive a Kia Stinger, nothing wrong with this driver oriented car. But like they say in German: "das bessere ist der feind des guten"... And... I would be surprised when the Kia is cheaper to run finally. I see all leasing firms going for German premiums and all the rest is almost obliterated because at the end... you pay more for a lesser car.
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      06-11-2020, 02:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
I think you have to run the TCO math like you already stated. A mildly used 530i or 330i are both offering all the known BMW virtues. I personally would also love to drive a Kia Stinger, nothing wrong with this driver oriented car. But like they say in German: "das bessere ist der feind des guten"... And... I would be surprised when the Kia is cheaper to run finally. I see all leasing firms going for German premiums and all the rest is almost obliterated because at the end... you pay more for a lesser car.
Well said. I've even spotted a few 540i's at very decent prices, now that the G30 facelift is coming.

In the meantime, has no one had the chance to experience the 318i?
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      06-11-2020, 07:57 PM   #17
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Well said. I've even spotted a few 540i's at very decent prices, now that the G30 facelift is coming.

In the meantime, has no one had the chance to experience the 318i?
I'm late to the party, but I went with a 318i,because total cost with lease, tax and insurance made the 28bhp difference from 318i to 320i a whooping 7k euro. Since comfort is what I value the most and I don't really care for an engine, nor I have the opportunity to enjoy it since 90% of the time I drive in the city in working hours, which barely allows for any speed or dynamic and the other 10% are either to my hometown or on a vacation, which in both cases is an extremely straight highway and I'm sure the 318i won't struggle to keep yhe speed limit ^^.
So i went for full comfort with almost every extra and this small engine and now I've been waiting for a month for the car.
It's faster than my 116bhp 20 year old diesel golf, which has always been enough for me, so I can't complain and even now I heard from you that you can tune it to 200bhp, which I guess voids the warranty?
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      06-11-2020, 08:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by FrostNixon View Post
I'm late to the party, but I went with a 318i,because total cost with lease, tax and insurance made the 28bhp difference from 318i to 320i a whooping 7k euro. Since comfort is what I value the most and I don't really care for an engine, nor I have the opportunity to enjoy it since 90% of the time I drive in the city in working hours, which barely allows for any speed or dynamic and the other 10% are either to my hometown or on a vacation, which in both cases is an extremely straight highway and I'm sure the 318i won't struggle to keep yhe speed limit ^^.
So i went for full comfort with almost every extra and this small engine and now I've been waiting for a month for the car.
It's faster than my 116bhp 20 year old diesel golf, which has always been enough for me, so I can't complain and even now I heard from you that you can tune it to 200bhp, which I guess voids the warranty?
BMW Warranty will be void of course. The engine of the 318i is probably the same as the one of the 320i. Stage 1 tuning will deliver for both about 260hp and 420Nm and this brings it to 330i level. Seems plenty to me in real live.
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      06-11-2020, 08:53 PM   #19
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Well said. I've even spotted a few 540i's at very decent prices, now that the G30 facelift is coming.

In the meantime, has no one had the chance to experience the 318i?
I also noticed that mildly pre-used 540i are getting affordable... that is a genuine dream car of course!
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      06-12-2020, 06:36 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by vatdim View Post
Thanks for that perspective. I think you're right about me - I do consider myself an enthusiast Still, while a few years ago I wouldn't even consider a Kia in my wildest dreams, the Stinger is something else in my opinion. It's a mostly European design, carried out by people with their roots in BMW and Audi. Many much greater enthusiasts seem perfectly happy with the Stinger. As for me - I like its styling and hatchback practicality, as well as its RWD architecture.

But if it happens to combine sportiness, RWD goodness and style, it's difficult to justify the extra cost of a BMW - especially when we are talking about a comparison between a car of up to 330i level of trim (2 liter turbocharged I4 engine capable of 255 bhp) vs a Stinger 2.0 (still a 2 liter turbocharged I4 engine capable of 255 bhp). Both cars feature 8-speed automatic gearboxes and RWD dynamics. But the Kia would have at least 2 years more under warranty, which makes it more dependable as a long-term purchase. And after so many years of owning an older out of warranty vehicle, I would like my next vehicle to be dependable for my daily commutes, as well as for my road trips.

The higher price of an equivalent BMW also means higher insurance costs, and my practice and some websites suggest the overall maintenance cost of a Bimmer would also be greater than that of a Stinger. While I'm an enthusiast, it is difficult to justify the level of expense associated with a more modern BMW than the one I currently have.

All that being said, I definitely am not settled, I'm just exploring options for the time being. I fully realize that BMWs feature a lot more options in terms of interior styling, and I believe they offer better quality materials inside. Their engines are more refined and much more efficient, their handling is tighter and the included technology is a few steps ahead of newer competitors like Kia. I've also been happy with BMW service at their dealerships so far, and I think they offer a better customer experience as a whole.

It was this debate in my head that made me look for possible alternatives and "in-between" options such as the 320i or even the 318i with a good tune - options that would allow me to utilize the pros of owning a newer BMW (efficient engines, quality materials and better customization of the interior, good customer services) while remaining at the more prudent price level of a Stinger - of course, at the cost of some horsepower. I could see myself bearing such a cost in case these lower trim models are in fact decent and enjoyable to drive, while retaining good build quality.
This is the worst part, when you have to align your desires with real life constraints.

Ultimately getting the best bang for your moneys is the key. But I assume you like driving and see it for more than just A to B.

In the case of the new 3 series I would say that compared to the F3X series, it is worth the price of admission. The quality of the materials and the overall craftsmanship in this new series is worth it.

I also looked at different options, but after my experience with the M2, I was done with BMW, paying premium prices for less than premium quality cars. Until I test drove the new G20.

I was fine with biting the depreciation bullet because the car handled amazing. The engine, while small, has real usable power and it is extremely efficient!
The inside of the car feels proper quality. Everything looks good and nothing rattles like a beat up 1990 Mercedes.

How will reliability be? I dont know. BMW made a commitment to improve the 3 in every aspect so I hope that everything in the car works in 4 years time. Thats a leap of faith I took honestly, but for some context, I have never had major problems with my cars so I've been lucky.

If you want a hatchback, how about the 4 GC?
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      06-13-2020, 07:29 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by A6bullet View Post
This is the worst part, when you have to align your desires with real life constraints.

Ultimately getting the best bang for your moneys is the key. But I assume you like driving and see it for more than just A to B.

In the case of the new 3 series I would say that compared to the F3X series, it is worth the price of admission. The quality of the materials and the overall craftsmanship in this new series is worth it.

I also looked at different options, but after my experience with the M2, I was done with BMW, paying premium prices for less than premium quality cars. Until I test drove the new G20.

I was fine with biting the depreciation bullet because the car handled amazing. The engine, while small, has real usable power and it is extremely efficient!
The inside of the car feels proper quality. Everything looks good and nothing rattles like a beat up 1990 Mercedes.

How will reliability be? I dont know. BMW made a commitment to improve the 3 in every aspect so I hope that everything in the car works in 4 years time. Thats a leap of faith I took honestly, but for some context, I have never had major problems with my cars so I've been lucky.

If you want a hatchback, how about the 4 GC?
Thanks for sharing that perspective, it really does help! You are right, from the moment I sat inside a G20, I also felt it had more to it than the older 3-series cars. It seems a bit more refined, somehow more upscale maybe, while still retaining the driving dynamics for which the 3-series is so widely acclaimed. I also like the exterior design a bit better than that in the F3X cars. I'm quite tempted by the G20, of course, and given a good offer I may make the jump.

As for the 4GC - I don't really like the exterior styling (especially the front of the car). While it is very functional, ultimately I would like my car to look appealing from every angle, the way my old E34 still turns heads on the street. The G20 seems to provide a continuation of that simple, yet striking and elegant design language I have always liked about BMW's, while the 4 seems a bit... unsettled, maybe? And while I like the liftback functionality of, say, the Stinger, I wouldn't consider that a must-have for me. Overall design will win me over every time.
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      06-13-2020, 08:04 AM   #22
vatdim
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I'm late to the party, but I went with a 318i,because total cost with lease, tax and insurance made the 28bhp difference from 318i to 320i a whooping 7k euro. Since comfort is what I value the most and I don't really care for an engine, nor I have the opportunity to enjoy it since 90% of the time I drive in the city in working hours, which barely allows for any speed or dynamic and the other 10% are either to my hometown or on a vacation, which in both cases is an extremely straight highway and I'm sure the 318i won't struggle to keep yhe speed limit ^^.
So i went for full comfort with almost every extra and this small engine and now I've been waiting for a month for the car.
It's faster than my 116bhp 20 year old diesel golf, which has always been enough for me, so I can't complain and even now I heard from you that you can tune it to 200bhp, which I guess voids the warranty?
Hello there, glad to have found you!

The points you made are exactly what has been going around in my own head with respect to this purchase. Does it really help if I get a few (28) bhp on top, if I have to sacrifice a bunch of comfort and nice options to obtain the same price, or retain the options and take a significant price hit? Especially considering the fact that the engines are probably identical, and a conservative tune should hopefully increase power in both to a reasonable amount.

I was wondering if you had the chance to test drive a 318i or you ordered one without testing first?
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