[CGSNJ59]

Hills definitely diminish range.

Cold - below 30- will drastically reduce range in the 330e to approx 10 e miles max according to someone who parks next to me at work.

Not sure why temp takes such a toll on range.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

Hills definitely diminish range.

Cold - below 30- will drastically reduce range in the 330e to approx 10 e miles max according to someone who parks next to me at work.

Not sure why temp takes such a toll on range.

If the car is not preconditioned, while charging, (or at least partly so) heating will take a big toll on the battery. HVAC can be running at up to 5.5kWh. And that's without any extra electric ancillaries being used, due to the colder temperatures.

[CGSNJ59]

It is hard to understand how the battery in the 330e - which only provides about 15 miles of range - drastically cuts down the size of your gas tank to only 10.6 gallons and also makes the trunk much smaller.

Makes no sense. Any thoughts???

[teddo]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

It is hard to understand how the battery in the 330e - which only provides about 15 miles of range - drastically cuts down the size of your gas tank to only 10.6 gallons and also makes the trunk much smaller.

Makes no sense. Any thoughts???

Do you understand how big a 1kwh battery is? If so, it makes complete sense. Sure bmw may have been able to package it better, but I don't think there's a better PHEV for the money on the market right now in terms of luxury, driving dynamics, etc. $5800 tax rebate for a $1000 msrp bump. It may not make sense for you, but it does make sense for a lot of others.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by teddo

It may not make sense for you, but it does make sense for a lot of others.

Exactly, there are hundreds of different models/types of vehicles available from which to choose. If one isn't the best option for your needs, choose a different one.

[SLO-Flat4]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

It is hard to understand how the battery in the 330e - which only provides about 15 miles of range - drastically cuts down the size of your gas tank to only 10.6 gallons and also makes the trunk much smaller.

Makes no sense. Any thoughts???

You know that you don't have to respond to every 330e discussion and complain about the battery/range.

For my needs, the 10.6 gallon lasts longer than my 16+ gallon tanks in my prior daily drivers. Your needs will vary.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by SLO-Flat4

You know that you don't have to respond to every 330e discussion and complain about the battery/range.

For my needs, the 10.6 gallon lasts longer than my 16+ gallon tanks in my prior daily drivers. Your needs will vary.

I currently have 450 mi since my last fuel stop with easily another 200 mi, if not more, based on my daily commute. What's the range on a tank of gas for a 330i?

[CGSNJ59]

Wow, that's amazing. If you are basically getting 650 a tankful (450 plus 200) (less around 15-25 for the electric range) you are averaging around 60 miles a gallon on regular gas! If you are getting that kind of MPG, it's amazing and BMW will probably pay you to advertise for them.

By simple arithmetic, the 330i would then be getting around 950 miles a tank (given that it has another 5 gallons of gas in the tank) since that gas engines in both are basically identical.

In other words, you are getting 650 a tank (less let's say 20 for electric range) which means you are yielding around 60 miles a gallon on the 10.6 gallon tank found in the 330e

With the 330i - and 15.6 gallons, using your MPG, it should get around 950 miles of range.

But neither car has reported specs that remotely come close to that.

Can you share with us how you are able to achieve 650 miles a tankful with a 10.6 gallon tank when the electric range is - at most - only about 25 miles? Maybe you recharge your car close to every day - and keep getting a new 20-25 miles of electric range which you use?

[SoCalJon]

Can you share with us how you are able to achieve 650 miles a tankful with a 10.6 gallon tank when the electric range is - at most - only about 25 miles? Maybe you recharge your car close to every day - and keep getting a new 20-25 miles of electric range which you use?

Yes.

Even more remarkable, if you never drove more than 20 miles a day, you could go thousands of miles without filling up. (Although your gas might lose stability over time.)

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I currently have 450 mi since my last fuel stop with easily another 200 mi, if not more, based on my daily commute. What's the range on a tank of gas for a 330i?

How many kWh have you charged in the 450 miles since last fuel stop?

Also, how many gallons of fuel are currently left when the remaining ICE+EV range total is 200 miles?

As others say, technically if u keep charging to 100% every 10-15 miles, u won't need to consume any gasoline, and u show get infinite miles per full tank of gas too.

BTW, my 330i can hit 42mpg on relatively flat freeways@65-80mph, so that is around 672 miles of range.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

Wow, that's amazing. If you are basically getting 650 a tankful (450 plus 200) (less around 15-25 for the electric range) you are averaging around 60 miles a gallon on regular gas! If you are getting that kind of MPG, it's amazing and BMW will probably pay you to advertise for them.

Outside the discussion of how many times the battery is charged alongside using a tank of gas, remember regeneration.

There are users reporting how many electric miles they get on road trips, while using a tank or two of gas. It's not limited to 15 - 25 miles. I recall one user, either in a 330e or 530e, getting near 100 electric miles on a decent road trip, with an initial charge.

[JABCAT]

If you scroll up, I already detailed my daily commute. I consistently get 24-25 miles of electric range every day & my commute is 28 mi round trip. I charge the vehicle overnight every day & have little travel in this vehicle above the aforementioned daily commute.

Simple math says 28 x 5 = 140 mi per week with 96-100 of those being all electric. Roughly 30mpg on gas only means I'm using ~1.3 gallons of gas/week. My last fuel stop was ~ 8.5 gallons, so roughly 6.5 weeks of fuel at a usage of 1.3/week. 6.5 x 40 mi gas-only = 260 mi.

On long trips, which I take around once a month, gas-only, I get between 330 -340 miles on a tank of fuel, so 35-36 mpg.

Obviously, if I drive more than that, don't charge every day, etc. numbers change. But it is possible, and it's also clear many don't understand how to calculate mpge vs mpg. The 330e is rated at ~75 mpge.

To answer another question, it shows I've charged 303 kWh. I have two residences, at my primary I charge for free and at my other my electricity rate is $0.08/kWh. So charging costs me next to nothing.

[SoCalJon]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

If you scroll up, I already detailed my daily commute. I consistently get 24-25 miles of electric range every day & my commute is 28 mi round trip. I charge the vehicle overnight every day & have little travel in this vehicle above the aforementioned daily commute.

Simple math says 28 x 5 = 140 mi per week with 96-100 of those being all electric. Roughly 30mpg on gas only means I'm using ~1.3 gallons of gas/week. My last fuel stop was ~ 8.5 gallons, so roughly 6.5 weeks of fuel at a usage of 1.3/week. 6.5 x 40 mi gas-only = 260 mi.

On long trips, which I take around once a month, gas-only, I get between 330 -340 miles on a tank of fuel, so 35-36 mpg.

Obviously, if I drive more than that, don't charge every day, etc. numbers change. But it is possible, and it's also clear many don't understand how to calculate mpge vs mpg. The 330e is rated at ~75 mpge.

To answer another question, it shows I've charged 303 kWh. I have two residences, at my primary I charge for free and at my other my electricity rate is $0.08/kWh. So charging costs me next to nothing.

This is great, thanks!

To add to that - let's just assume for a moment that you paid for all of those kWh. That means you spent $24.24 on that electricity. How many electric miles did you drive? At the end of the day, to me, what really matters is not MPG, MPGe, HP, range, or weight. I mostly care about CPM -- cents per mile.

I feel like too many people want to reduce this discussion to talking points about EV range, battery weight, HP, trunk size, and fuel capacity. While those are important elements to consider, the reality is much more complicated.

(What follows is a very long post about my math. TL;DR? Over 100,000 miles in a highly personalized scenario, including an adjustment for the tax credit, I anticipate driving a 330e at about $0.08/mile. The same 100,000 miles in a 330i would cost me $.140/mile.)

I've been building out a spreadsheet for myself -- Once I switch rate plans, I can purchase electricity (overnight) for about $.128/kWh. (I'm basing this on a 26-month analysis of usage, comparing our prior usage with a hypothetical scenario where we change rate plans and add 200kWh of overnight charging. If I charge more than 200kWh in a month, my cost per kWh drops to as low as $.10.)

That potentially puts my cost per EV mile down around $.0615 (25 mile range) to $.0769 (20 mile range). Let's work with the 20 mile range and say that in EV-only mode, the 330e costs me $.0769/mile.

Put $5.89/gallon (current cost of premium top-tier where I live) into a 42mpg 330i(using bavarianride's numbers), and it costs $.140/mile.

Put $5.89/gallon into a 36mpg 330e (heavier - using JABCAT's numbers), and it costs $.164/mile in ICE mode.

(Obviously, if we only run the two cars in ICE mode, the 330e costs more, it's heavier, it needs more gas per mile. However, if you bought a 330e, presumably you're planning on using it in EV-only mode for a significant part of the time.)

If (using those numbers) I run a 1000-mile hypothetical month, the monthly fuel cost for the 330i is $140.24.

If I run it for a 330e with 40% EV usage, it costs $128.93. (I'm being conservative in my estimate here. Someone like JABCAT is closer to 65% in EV mode)

Run that out over a 100,000 mile lifetime, and the 330e costs $12,892.96 in gas & electricity, and the 330i costs $14,023.81 in gas.

Additionally... because of the (current US) tax credit of $5,836, my 330e cost $4,836 less than a 330i. Subtract that $4,836 from my 100,000 mile lifetime, and the 330e has cost me $8,056.96 (or .081/mile), while the 330i cost $14,023.81 (or $.140/mile).

Now... Obviously -- these are hypotheticals... arguably, best-case hypotheticals. If my electric range is less due to temperature or terrain or driving style... or if I take a lot of longer trips, or use more gas, or if the price of electricity goes up and the price of gas drops... then the calculus all changes.

As noted in lots of places of places on this forum, a 330e is not for everyone. It thrives for individuals who have the bulk of their travel within a 10-15 mile radius from home, or have free/cheap charging at work (which would double their radius).

Questions potential 330e owners should ask themselves before buying:

1. What are my driving habits? Are most of my trips 25 miles or less? Do I anticipate taking a lot of road trips in this vehicle?
2. What percentage of my driving do I think will be EV-only? Hybrid? ICE?
3. Can I charge regularly (daily) at cheap rates?
4. What is the cost of electricity? Do I anticipate that rising or falling?
5. What is the cost of gasoline? Do I anticipate that rising or falling?
6. What is my perspective on ALL of the ecological questions: renewable energy, pollution from exhaust vs. from power plants, battery sourcing/disposal, power grid stability, distribution network, pollution related to shipping heavier vehicles around, etc. Anyone who wants to reduce this to talking points from either the right or the left probably hasn't really wrestled with the issues. It's much more complicated than politicians on either side of the aisle want us to believe.
7. How much does the increased weight, decreased tank size, decreased trunk matter to me?

By the way -- it's totally OK to work through those questions and come up with different answers than your neighbor. I don't think that a 330e is the correct solution for everyone. But clearly it works for a significant number of people.

[SoCalJon]

Just for fun (and because I thought JABCAT might be interested), I ran this scenario based on JABCAT's usage:

330e assumptions:

• $0.08/kWh (let's ignore your free charging and assume you're paying for all of it)
• 25 mile range
• $3.29/gallon of Premium in Austin, TX
• 36 mpg in ICE mode
• 650 EV miles each month
• 350 ICE miles each month

330i assumptions:

• $3.29/gallon of Premium in Austin, TX
• 42 mpg
• 1000 miles each month

The 330e cost per EV mile is $.038. The 330e cost per ICE mile is $.091.
The 330i cost per ICE mile is .078.

The 330e would cost $56.95/month; the 330i would cost $78.33/mo.

Over a 100,000 mile lifetime, adjusting $4,836 for the tax rebate, the 330e would cost $.009/mile; the 330i would cost $.078/mile.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SoCalJon

By the way -- it's totally OK to work through those questions and come up with different answers than your neighbor. I don't think that a 330e is the correct solution for everyone. But clearly it works for a significant number of people.

Definitely different answers.

In addition, here in the UK, company car drivers have tax (BIK) advantages.
These alone can make the 330e cheaper to run, even on ICE only. Not the same for the private buyer.

Then there are the Ultra Low Emission Zones (ULEZ), and subsequent charges to go into cities, like London's example. The 330e will be much cheaper to use, than the 330i.

[CGSNJ59]

Excellent points above by all.

Jabcat: "On long trips, which I take around once a month, gas-only, I get between 330 -340 miles on a tank of fuel, so 35-36 mpg. "

Given that the 330e gas tank has a capacity of only 10.6 gallons, I think you mean you are getting between 31 MPG and 32 MPG.

Bavarainride is right: "As others say, technically if u keep charging to 100% every 10-15 miles, u won't need to consume any gasoline, and u show get infinite miles per full tank of gas too. "

As for regenerating the battery while driving, BMW literature makes clear that there is not much ability to significantly regenerate the 330e battery while driving / braking.

Does anyone really buy a BMW and do a calculation about how much money gas or electric cost?? It's not a Prius or Leaf or Hyundai, whose owners love to do the cost saving calculations. Most BMW owners I know give a passing glance to the MPG on the window sticker and are much more focused on performance.

Anyway, to each his own. I personally think if this car had 40-60 miles of electric range, the 10.6 gallon gas tank (and smaller trunk) would possibly be acceptable. I just can't figure out why a battery that only produces around 20 miles of range on a good day results in a loss of 1/3 of the standard gas tank and a significant portion of the trunk. A battery that takes up that much space should get more range. Then again, I don't know anything about the engineering of a PHEV.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...t-test-review/

[SoCalJon]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

Does anyone really buy a BMW and do a calculation about how much money gas or electric cost?? It's not a Prius or Leaf or Hyundai, whose owners love to do the cost saving calculations. Most BMW owners I know give a passing glance to the MPG on the window sticker and are much more focused on performance.

Yes. See above.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

As for regenerating the battery while driving, BMW literature makes clear that there is not much ability to significantly regenerate the 330e battery while driving / braking.

Take the real-world data from guys driving 330e models. Examples like this...

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...c+miles&page=4

Originally Posted by eddiehaug

Long trip today.

Consumption: 45mpg. Trip length: 328 miles.
Temp: 6.5-11 C | 43.7 - 51.8 F
Total distance electric: 102.5 miles
Initial battery charge: 100%
Driving Mode: Adaptive w/Nav

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by CGSNJ59

Anyway, to each his own. I personally think if this car had 40-60 miles of electric range, the 10.6 gallon gas tank (and smaller trunk) would possibly be acceptable. I just can't figure out why a battery that only produces around 20 miles of range on a good day results in a loss of 1/3 of the standard gas tank and a significant portion of the trunk. A battery that takes up that much space should get more range. Then again, I don't know anything about the engineering of a PHEV.

I agree on the range needing to be a bit more, I'd need ~40 miles to make it work for me.

As to packaging, remember we have rear wheel drive, that takes up quite a bit of space. Also the construction setup is used on the 330e wagon.

Looking at illustrations of the battery pack, it is quite large and has to slot in a very restricted space and be safely packaged with the gas tank.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by SoCalJon

(What follows is a very long post about my math. TL;DR? Over 100,000 miles in a highly personalized scenario, including an adjustment for the tax credit, I anticipate driving a 330e at about $0.08/mile. The same 100,000 miles in a 330i would cost me $.140/mile.).

Yes I agree with this metric. I did some analysis in previous post with $4.50/gallon AKI91(Costco costs $5.20 now), and $0.35/kWh(PG&E now is $0.40/kWh), and that calculation shows 330e being more expensive to run based on the snapshots of user data at the time(check post#21's data from eddiehaug@)

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1855924

I think if u can get free electricity that will be a big plus to get 330e.

As far as fed credit for 330e, I think that also drops off in Jan 2023, so the math will shift at that time. When I bought my 330i, the equivalent 330e was $4k cheaper than 330i after all incentives, I did pick 330i since it was 400lb lighter than 330e and handling better at corners.

[bavarianride]

Eddiehaug's snapshot from the thread linked in post #42 is:

TL;DR:

*16865.5km(10540.94 miles)

* Electricity: 2440.5 kWh
* Gas: 660 liters (174 gallons)

* Consumption gas only: 12.9 km/l = 30.3 mpg
* Consumption overall: 25.6 km/l = 60.2 mpg

* Battery consumption: 34.7kWh/100km = 0.56kWh/mile = 1.79mile/kWh

Using NorCal's current PG&E rates of average $0.40/kWh and Costco AKI91 of $5.20/gallon:

2440.5 * 0.40 = 976.2 USD
174 gallons (660 liters) * 5.20 = 904.8 USD

Total = 1881USD => USD0.178/mile for 330e.

Using 330i's average mpg of 35(city/highway):

10540.94 miles/35mpg = 301.17 gallons

301.17 gallon * $5.2 = 1566.1 USD = USD0.149/mile for 330i

That is a USD0.031/mile delta, or 330e costs USD3100 extra over 100k miles.

Please feel free to plug in your local kWh and AKI91 costs, and your 330i's average mpg to the above calculation and see what is the cost delta for your scenarios.

[G30M]

until you sue manufacturers and return cars for buy back, nothing will stop their fictitious WLTP range publications.

I have to say though, when you buy a gas car that says x MPG you never get the MPG, so ...