[________]

Originally Posted by khailuan

1. You need to understand the difference between fan and purist before saying my post is incongruent. I'm a fan but not a purist, there's a difference.

2. Those are my thoughts and not arguments to a debate.

3. You can agree or disagree with my view. Either way i'm cool with it.

Thoughts are arguments to a debate, and this is why this is called a "debate forum".

But I see you have no argument and no wish to continue a debate, you just wanted to flame a little. And that's cool.

Cheers

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

“I do not want to hear that shit anymore.”

-- Well sir, we weren't the problem.

CLASSIC!!!!!

[BMV///M3]

Originally Posted by rjd598

who said it will be $800/month?

That's just my guess. With residuals being low and MF's going up I wouldn't be surprised. Also it's a first year model with high demand

[B58]

After the E92 M3 was released what more was there to like about the E46? Absolutely nothing. Its also the worse sounding bmw to exist on the market.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by Bluesummer

If he got the first thing wrong to the root, how can he possibly fix anything?

"Drive fast and relax and feel not going fast"

Wtf is this? The core of the complaints isn't the car not going fast enough. In fact, it's the completely opposite of that. When I'm going fast, I want to know I'm going fast. If One wanted to feel isolated while cruising at 90mph, that person could easily pick hundreds of other options available.

Someone please fire this narcissistic dickhead

Totally agree. What an idiot. And these are the people BMW has put in place to bring the soul back??

They don't get it - do they?

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by khailuan

Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans.
When did it become "cool" to hate your favorite car brands' products?
Has this become a basher's forum?
Enough with the lexus rear end comparisons. Most of you wouldn't even buy one for its performance nor its driving dynamics since they're all inferior to BMW.
If you can't stop lamenting how BMW's new models can't compare to its cars (E30, E46 and E90) of the past then maybe you should stay in the past.
Times have changed and cars will too.
Do you think a company would revert back to its previous generation's technology such as isntalling hydraulic steering to replace electronic in new cars? Perhaps this generation's steering is not quite as good (tbd) but at least they're improving it constantly and eventually they'll get there.
You can't stop progress and companies certainly won't go backwards.
Stats have shown that people have grown in height and weight over the years.
It's logical for the 3 series to grow as well to a certain extent but they also have to look at what the competition does. Besides, it needs to make room for the upcoming 4 door 2 series to compete with the A3/S3 and CLA which BMW has missed out on this segment. Lastly, a recurrent complaint of the F30 was poor rear legroom.
So what if it's slightly larger and a tad heavier. It offers so much more in terms of technology, comfort, road composure with advanced differential and dampers. It obliterates the previous generations on performance. Also, its structure rigidity are said to be much improved.
It's baffling to me that people think they're cool by pointing out immaterial and subjective negative areas while they choose not to mention all the other improvements the car has over its previous generations. I sure wouldn't miss the waterpump failure and fuel pump problem in my E90. Yes the steering was more precise but I sure don't miss its stiffness and that unforgiving suspension with the slightest road imperfection. I also don't miss that backseat where no one can fit.
BMW will continue to make luxury cars and aim to reclaim its #1 crown. It will do so by ensuring its new 3 series will appeal to the massive market of luxury segment buyers and not by yielding to the BMW purists or enthusiasts. BMW has already thrown them a bone with the M2. So shut up, get an M2 or stay in the past.

Dude, I am a fan of my wife too. If the food is not good I would tell her. It doesn't mean I hate her...

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

This is what I've been sayin.. the 2 is the 3 of yore

2 is 2 inches bigger than the e82.

It's also going to be FWD next gen, except the M240i up.

So lmao. Fun while it lasted

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by bbog2008

I was just thinking at this and wondering if they have addressed this tiny issue called driving pleasure that we look for in a car like 3 series. E90 in stock form was absolutely a blast to drive. F30 provides with a video game sensation not a road connection. If I am not mistaken it is drivers like us who enjoy this connection driver-car-road that played the PR role for BMW and gave the 3 series it's fame. Now we criticize the direction 3 series is going and we talk "shit like this". Well give us back the driving machine and "shit like this" is going to be a very positive shit.

Couldn't have said it better. The irony is that they don't really seem to get (or care, other than PR) about this 'tiny' issue called driving pleasure. Was a time when I would go on and on about the telepathic BMW steering to anyone that'd listen (and God knows how many friends/family I've steered to BMW) - once I drove the F30, it was all over. With the EPS, BMW killed the soul of the car they built their brand on.

[ASAP]

again... runflats or no?

10th time i am asking lol.

[ASAP]

again... runflats or no?

10th time i am asking lol.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by cupojava

My E90 sounded like it the whole car was exploding driving over the smallest potholes. The LCI F30 is lightyears ahead of it in every way.

Something must have been wrong with yout E90.

The F30 (even the 2018) has dull, overboosted (and artificially heavy) steering in whichever mode you put it in. Not sure how you feel the F30 is light years ahead - a car without a soul, and widely accepted to the the car that took BMW furthest away from its 'ultimate driving machine' status...as can be seen accepted by BMW corporation also (all this story about how we are going back to our roots etc... - because with the F30, they went furthest away).

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by khailuan

Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans.
When did it become "cool" to hate your favorite car brands' products?
Has this become a basher's forum?
Enough with the lexus rear end comparisons. Most of you wouldn't even buy one for its performance nor its driving dynamics since they're all inferior to BMW.
If you can't stop lamenting how BMW's new models can't compare to its cars (E30, E46 and E90) of the past then maybe you should stay in the past.
Times have changed and cars will too.
Do you think a company would revert back to its previous generation's technology such as isntalling hydraulic steering to replace electronic in new cars? Perhaps this generation's steering is not quite as good (tbd) but at least they're improving it constantly and eventually they'll get there.
You can't stop progress and companies certainly won't go backwards.
Stats have shown that people have grown in height and weight over the years.
It's logical for the 3 series to grow as well to a certain extent but they also have to look at what the competition does. Besides, it needs to make room for the upcoming 4 door 2 series to compete with the A3/S3 and CLA which BMW has missed out on this segment. Lastly, a recurrent complaint of the F30 was poor rear legroom.
So what if it's slightly larger and a tad heavier. It offers so much more in terms of technology, comfort, road composure with advanced differential and dampers. It obliterates the previous generations on performance. Also, its structure rigidity are said to be much improved.
It's baffling to me that people think they're cool by pointing out immaterial and subjective negative areas while they choose not to mention all the other improvements the car has over its previous generations. I sure wouldn't miss the waterpump failure and fuel pump problem in my E90. Yes the steering was more precise but I sure don't miss its stiffness and that unforgiving suspension with the slightest road imperfection. I also don't miss that backseat where no one can fit.
BMW will continue to make luxury cars and aim to reclaim its #1 crown. It will do so by ensuring its new 3 series will appeal to the massive market of luxury segment buyers and not by yielding to the BMW purists or enthusiasts. BMW has already thrown them a bone with the M2. So shut up, get an M2 or stay in the past.

On the contrary, you should be thanking enthusiasts like us (and Bimmerpost) for criticizing what we felt was BMW going away from being the ultimate driving machine - and BMW trying to go back to UDM roots with the G20. If not for us, you'd be driving a quicker Lexus - but having read your post, I don't think you'd have noticed.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by OnerDriver

Incongruent post.

First asking if BMW fans should only cheer whatever BMW does (like "real friends" who only say whatever you do is right, even when you're wrong) and then talk about BMW not appeasing to BMW fans but to the mass market.

Pick your line of argument and come back.
Thanks

Agreed. Well, he's admitting that BMW will continue to build more luxiourious cars for luxury car buyers (and happy with that), and not for enthusiasts and purists - that clearly indicates his state of mind...not an enthusiast or purist - and not someone that enjoys driving pleasure. Clearly the segment that has spoilt BMW for the past few years, and what they are now trying to get away from.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by stefan

Wow.. you know things are off the rails when you dismiss valid criticisms.


"First thing and this is for me the most important thing; you can drive fast and completely relaxed. You don't feel how fast you are."

I could not feel more different than this statement. I get this for the 5er but the 3? Especially for the sporty variants, isn't the whole idea to feel engaged and feel like you're moving fast? Otherwise we just keep throwing more hp and more tire at these cars and they're no fun at all despite being quick. Isn't feeling something the whole damn point?? Certainly conflicts with the back breaking suspension on the M branded models.

To me, you've just highlighted one of the big issues for BMW. Many customers do want a smaller Five in the Three. That cry is very evident in customer reviews of any BMW 3-series over the years. Even enthusiasts on this forum have commented they wish the F3x models were more like a smaller Five, and hope the G20 is built that way. More luxury, refinement, quieter, etc.

I imagine most of us know the more attention given to those sort of details, the tuning out of the 'negatives' in of NVH, we move away from the raw cars of yesteryear. Cars become more sterile to drive.

My current Five doesn't feel as fast as my last Three, often surprised by the turn of speed and capability through the twisties in the F11, but no drama like the E91. The built in refinement prevents that engagement. Does it make it a deficient car to drive? Objectively no. Subjectively, when feelings are included, so personal.

As to driving feel, we have a good example of this issue here in the UK with BMW vs. Jaguar models. Both the Jaguar competitors to the Five (XF) and Three (XE) are rated as a better drive, steering feel handling/comfort balance far better sorted.

Why don't BMW drivers move across to Jaguar? Users are after the best 'package', an extra layer of steering feel and slightly better handling, a very small part of that equation.

Just had an old UK motor magazine out, to look back at a group test including the BMW E46 saloon (sedan). For driving, an Alfa was rated the best driving car. But as we know the Alfa of the period was a user's nightmare, so not surprising the BMW rightly earned the best "allrounder". Yes, driving compromises, but best bet to own and drive.

[randomstriker]

Originally Posted by Law

BMW Development Chief Klaus Fröhlich says: “I do not want to hear that shit anymore.”

Seems to me he ain't so fröhlich (cheerful)!

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

To me, you've just highlighted one of the big issues for BMW. Many customers do want a smaller Five in the Three. That cry is very evident in customer reviews of any BMW 3-series over the years. Even enthusiasts on this forum have commented they wish the F3x models were more like a smaller Five, and hope the G20 is built that way. More luxury, refinement, quieter, etc.

I imagine most of us know the more attention given to those sort of details, the tuning out of the 'negatives' in of NVH, we move away from the raw cars of yesteryear. Cars become more sterile to drive.

My current Five doesn't feel as fast as my last Three, often surprised by the turn of speed and capability through the twisties in the F11, but no drama like the E91. The built in refinement prevents that engagement. Does it make it a deficient car to drive? Objectively no. Subjectively, when feelings are included, so personal.

As to driving feel, we have a good example of this issue here in the UK with BMW vs. Jaguar models. Both the Jaguar competitors to the Five (XF) and Three (XE) are rated as a better drive, steering feel handling/comfort balance far better sorted.

Why don't BMW drivers move across to Jaguar? Users are after the best 'package', an extra layer of steering feel and slightly better handling, a very small part of that equation.

Just had an old UK motor magazine out, to look back at a group test including the BMW E46 saloon (sedan). For driving, an Alfa was rated the best driving car. But as we know the Alfa of the period was a user's nightmare, so not surprising the BMW rightly earned the best "allrounder". Yes, driving compromises, but best bet to own and drive.

There's enough space in their lineup to make the next 3 closer to the 5, and the 2, the next 3. But they can't do that by making the 2 an FWD. Sure, most of today's buyers probably won't notice (I read somewhere that a BMW honcho said 80% of their buyers don't know if their car is FWD or RWD) - but to differentiate, and continue to build the BMW UDM image, BMW does need to go back to its roots - and from what I've read so for, the G20 seems a step in that direction.

Will pass judgement after I drive one.

Re Jaguar - nah....not for some of us. I bleed Blue/White.

[khailuan]

Originally Posted by monte03carlo

"Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans."

My point was not to bash BMW or the F30 but Klaus's statement.
"First thing and this is for me the most important thing; you can drive fast and completely relaxed. You don't feel how fast you are"
To me that's not how BMW is going to silence the critics.

My F30 does a lot of things. Good gas mileage, nice exterior/interior, nice engine/transmission, accurate steering, reliable and quick/fast.

But the feeling—> (steering and chassis)has to be address in the G20 in ordered to silence the critics.

When klaus made that comment "you don't feel how fast you are" I agree with you, I cringed too.

Coming from an E90 to F34, I must admit that the steering was definitely a letdown but it improved after installing the MPPK. I think chassis-wise for the new G20 based on BMW's statement that it is 25-30% more rigid and perfect 50/50 balance would indicate improvement over the F30. I'm hopeful though and I can't wait for the reviews !

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

This has to be bait. People here we're fans of good cars, which BMW used to make. Now they make big fat Camry competitors. They deserve the criticism. The DNA of the car has changed even if the badge is the same.

Define BMW DNA, remember many of us go back with BMW cars before some on this forum were even born.

I go back to 1970, 2000 New Class sedan.... the first BMW I have personal experience of. I'm amused at some of the statements on here, heard it all before, over and over.

BTW, the E9x models are only one 'snapshot' of modern BMW heritage, and they are not perfect by any means. Highly criticised cars, including by many long term BMW users.

Most get over all the negativities and get into the latest models.

[simnew]

Stiffness translates into ride comfort because you don't get secondary oscillations from the body flexing and amplifying the original imperfection in the road surface. Simply physics. With a better platform, the suspension can work better and in a more pure way. Common knowledge and has been forever. But stiffness comes at a cost in money and or in weight.

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

2 is 2 inches bigger than the e82.

It's also going to be FWD next gen, except the M240i up.

So lmao. Fun while it lasted

I'd only consider M240i or M2 anyway..
its no surprise what yer describing theyve been doing it at the F30 level..
that is.. provide one performance variant of the model series
then lobotomize the rest of the variants but slap the BMW shield and M logos on them all

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

I don't know how this car drives but for me it is the most Un-BMW looking car they have ever made. It has so many styling cues taken from the Japanese and Korean it's not even funny. And they have committed the sacrilege of copying the competition intead of staying true to BMW's core design elements. One just needs to look at Porsche to see design heritage done right.

[praxis218]

Originally Posted by Just a 3

Something must have been wrong with yout E90.

The F30 (even the 2018) has dull, overboosted (and artificially heavy) steering in whichever mode you put it in. Not sure how you feel the F30 is light years ahead - a car without a soul, and widely accepted to the the car that took BMW furthest away from its 'ultimate driving machine' status...as can be seen accepted by BMW corporation also (all this story about how we are going back to our roots etc... - because with the F30, they went furthest away).

My F30 pre-LCI 335i was pretty boring. However I feel like my F30 340i has more soul than my E92 335is, which was lightyears ahead of my pre-LCI E90 328i. When the E9x first got released it runflats for the 3 series were a new thing and the ride was horrible, along with the pothole explosion sounds. It was a pretty well known thing back then.

The B58 engine is sublime. The 8AT is better than the DCT.

The more I look at the Paris auto show photos/videos, the more F30 just looks outdated compared to G20 now.