[gorthol]

Originally Posted by edycol

So how does your rod survives winter?
You do know these engines run LL01 in many markets?

What grades? LL01 can be 0W30, 5W30, 0W40 or 5W40 (maybe there are other grades). My manual not only writes the specification (ll-12 or ll-17 in my case) but also the grades. If BMW allows W40 on the G20 B48 (outside of the "emergency up to 1 liter top up case") then it should be probably fine but in any case you said "thicker is never an issue" which is not the case, put a W60 and let's see how it goes. Thicker is never an issue if you are inside the maker spec, if you are not, it absolutely can be an issue.

More time? When? 0W is, well 0W! It is Cold Cranking Pumpability test at -35c. Whether oil is 0W8 or 0W50, oil has to pass same test!

The LL01 you mentioned is 5W and "thicker is never an issue" higher grades would be 10W or whatever more.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by gorthol

The LL01 you mentioned is 5W and "thicker is never an issue" higher grades would be 10W or whatever more.

First, you are confusing what is thick and what is thin. That doesn’t have anything with CCP, or 0W or 5W. Thicker or thinner means KV100, or second number.
LL01 is LL01! It is based on minimum HTHS and fuel efficiency test which usually limits HTHS at 4cP. It can be ANY grade as long as HTHS falls into those values. KV100 and HTHS are two different measurements! I wrote extensively about it, search.
You are shooting in the dark and throwing stuff you really didn’t research.
And yes, 10W60 would be fine in your engine. Yes, turbo would spool bit slower, and mpg would take a bit if a hit, but it would be fine. By the way, people run Redline 15W50 in those engines on track.

[mondayze]

Originally Posted by TheKandyman

If you're leasing the car or don't plan to keep the car for long, change the oil when iDrive tells you to change it.

If you're a long-term keeper like me, consider giving yourself a little long-term peace of mind with more frequent oil changes. I have and will be doing an oil change every 5 - 6k miles. One at the recommended interval and another about 5 - 6k miles later. While the car is in the BMW maintenance period, I ask that the oil indicator not be reset when I do the mid-interval change so that it still comes up at the recommended interval and BMW pays for that change. I pay for the mid-interval change out of pocket.

I think I am going to steal this idea, BMW changed my oil for free at 5800 miles, so maybe they will again at 11k...?

[gorthol]

Originally Posted by edycol

First, you are confusing what is thick and what is thin. That doesn’t have anything with CCP, or 0W or 5W. Thicker or thinner means KV100, or second number.

No I don't. Viscosity of an oil isn't a single number, it's the first before the 0W, which is hugely important for engine tear when cold and also second number which is a different viscosity and then you have the VI which is somewhat of a relation between both.

HTST is only indirectly related to viscosity, it's tearing at temperature and high stresses. It's a good indicator of how the oil bears shearing at extreme conditions but it's not as hugely important as some people think because our engines will very rarely see 150C at that load; the boiling point of the HC-12/LC-18 coolant at a 50% mix is around 130C so if your engine sees 150C the oil shearing is the minor of your problems.

LL01 is LL01! It is based on minimum HTHS and fuel efficiency test which usually limits HTHS at 4cP. It can be ANY grade as long as HTHS falls into those values.

Yes, LL01, the specification, includes many grades. However you said some markets use LL01 with the G20 B48 but in this case not only the specification is required but ALSO a subset of grades. So if the car required LL01 doesn't mean that ALL grades that support the specification will be supported by an specific engine, in this case the G20 B48. You have to match both requirements (grade and spec) not one or the other.

And yes, 10W60 would be fine in your engine. Yes, turbo would spool bit slower, and mpg would take a bit if a hit, but it would be fine.

Oh, sorry, I didn't knew you were a B48 BMW engineer and you had in mind all the tight tolerances of the rod and main bearings and the (some of them very small) oil passages and the required thermo and hydrodynamic rate for these parts and the full graph of the required oil flow at load.

Oil is also acts as a coolant and reducing the flow rate as you can guess is not good for it. For example, it's the main cooling component of the piston heads. And this is done by very precisely "snipping" a spray of oil pointing at the piston head passages when is at bottom dead. Guess what happens to that spray if the oil is too thick.

It's also not good for the oil pump if it was not designed for thicker grades (which it wasn't).

Thicker oil will also stress piston O-rings more leading over time to worse sealing, decreased compression and higher oil consumption.

By the way, people run Redline 15W50 in those engines on track.

If you mean professional teams, they don't have to worry about longevity. However, I think 5W40 is common on at least some teams with the B48. If you mean normal people with their everyday cars, well... people do many things on track differently from the street because it'll be only a few miles but I personally would not run W50 on these engines, even on track. Expensive racing engine oil anyway is usually very different for street one. For one, it usually has a super high ZDDP content that will quickly fuck your cat and OPF filter if used daily (that’s one of the reasons these oils have big “FOR TRACK USE ONLY” warnings on the bottle). It's also tends to have a very high esther and/or AN concentrations in the base which makes it very expensive but also flow and protect the engine better because of the molecular polarity of these bases which tend to "stick" to metals. This means that you could do with a grade higher than spec because even if the hydrodynamic flow is outside the spec, the parts will remain lubricated. This doesn’t happen, or not so much, with group III and even group IV based oils.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by gorthol

If you mean professional teams, they don't have to worry about longevity. However, I think 5W40 is common on at least some teams with the B48. If you mean normal people with their everyday cars, well... people do many things on track differently from the street because it'll be only a few miles but I personally would not run W50 on these engines, even on track. Expensive racing engine oil anyway is usually very different for street one. For one, it usually has a super high ZDDP content that will quickly fuck your cat and OPF filter if used daily. It's also tends to have a very high esther and/or AN concentrations in the base which makes it very expensive but also flow and protect the engine better (because of the molecular polarity of these bases which tend to "stick" to metals).

Again you are shooting in the dark. More reading.
HTHS is everything. All BMW approvals are based on HTHS!
CCP is important, but thick and thin debate is not about CCP but KV100 and VI doesn’t have anything to do with it.
You read something, but you didn’t connect anything even close. Esthers (it is ester), AN’s, ZDDP. The fact that you are thinking that Redline 15W50 has elevated ZDDP content says enough. You obviously don’t have any idea what BMW people use on track (not teams) as you have never been there.
I am not BMW engineer, but I worked on oil development.
You don’t understand basic CCP and viscosity of oil at those temperatures. Otherwise, you wouldn’t mention “tight tolerances.” When someone mentions “tight tolerances “ I know they read something on Reddit or similar web site.

[gorthol]

Originally Posted by edycol

Again you are shooting in the dark. More reading.
HTHS is everything. All BMW approvals are based on HTHS!

They are based on HTHS (which as I said, gives a good indication of the shearing rate of the oil under high stress) but also other things like (surprise!) oil grades and the ACEA and API levels which includes a lot more than HTHS.

You read something, but you didn’t connect anything even close.

lol...

The fact that you are thinking that Redline 15W50 has elevated ZDDP content says enough.

Don't change my words. I said racing engine oil usually has very high ZDDP content, which is usually true. I didn't say anything about Redline.

I am not BMW engineer, but I worked on oil development.

You don’t understand basic CCP and viscosity of oil at those temperatures. Otherwise, you wouldn’t mention “tight tolerances.” When someone mentions “tight tolerances “ I know they read something on Reddit or similar web site.

Ok, since we're dick measuring and you're resorting to guessing from my (non native) use of the language, I'm not a BMW engineer either, neither worked on oil development, but I've worked on very expensive tools used by many brands for engine design and development.

And just some more things that come to mind related to increased oil thickness as you should know on many engines piston heads are cooled by "sniping" a thin jet of oil into the piston head bottom oil passages when the piston is at bottom dead. Guess what happens to that jet when you increase the viscosity too much outside of the spec and if you can't try to guess peeing marmalade and trying to hit a target six feet away.

[gorthol]

You obviously don’t have any idea what BMW people use on track (not teams) as you have never been there.

AFAIK BMW doesn't officially competes with the G20 B48 so you have never been there either. I know of some other teams that do, like Bilstein, but AFAIK not BMW (yet).

[ultrared93]

Originally Posted by gorthol

My guess is that the reduced oil changes are because USA gas can have up to 10 times more sulfur than EU one.

Perhaps you are not aware of the latest US gasoline standards.
"Starting January 1, 2017, EPA requires that federal gasoline will contain an average of 10 ppm sulfur on an annual basis." The latest reference to Euro standards I could find is Euro 5 standard (EN 590:2009) implemented in January of 2009 that also specifies a 10ppm sulfur limit. So, the USA may have gotten there later, but seems to be in line with European regs.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by gorthol

Ok, since we're dick measuring and you're resorting to guessing from my (non native) use of the language, I'm not a BMW engineer either, neither worked on oil development, but I've worked on very expensive tools used by many brands for engine design and development.

And just some more things that come to mind related to increased oil thickness as you should know on many engines piston heads are cooled by "sniping" a thin jet of oil into the piston head bottom oil passages when the piston is at bottom dead. Guess what happens to that jet when you increase the viscosity too much outside of the spec and if you can't try to guess peeing marmalade and trying to hit a target six feet away.

Well, I worked on oils that had to pass BMW, MB and VW approvals, so API comes to
Me as surprise. I must tell people I worked with that all this time we were wrong.
HTHS is measured differently. It is viscosity at 150c. It is measured using SAME methodology as CCP measurements. Grade is IRRELEVANT in BMW approvals as well as MB (VW is the only one tying grade to approvals). 150c is normal temperature at certian engine parts and gives manufacturers far better indication of oil film where it matters as same grade (since that is range) can have far different HTHS value. 30 could mean anything. It could mean HTHS of 2.9 in some mediocre ILSAC XW30 oil or 3.58cP in Castrol Edge 0W30 or 3.7 in Redline Performance 5W30.
Manuals are written in various ways and BMW’s one are usually half baked product to make sure people who don’t understand anything about oils can read it. They are not as bad as VW confusing manuals, but they are bad! Hyundai for example for 10yrs listed non-existent oil specifications in manual!

As for your “marmelade pissing,” enlighten us what happens to that at -20c? Do you actually know what is centistoke of oil at -20c? Do you really think engines are built like that? Toyota in Australia allows 20W50 oils in same engines that use 0W8 and 0W16 oils in the US. It is all about CAFE! You do know that same engines are sold in the markets that have very high sulfur levels, different climate etc. that requires utilization of different oils? Mercedes in their manual, which is far better written than BMW’s one lists three approvals to use and what they mean:
MB229.71 to maximize fuel economy
MB229.61 to improve fuel efficiency.
MB 229.51 for maximum protection (min HTHS 3.5cP).
I didn’t look in internal of new MB 2.0T but I bet it has oil passages!

You mentioned Redline bcs. I told you that people used it and went on rant about ZDDP bcs. you read that somewhere. Zinc is an issue if there is consumption. Zinc doesn’t hurt DPF/GPF, sulfated ash does. That is why in vehicles with that equipment BMW requires low-SAPS approvals like LL04.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by gorthol

AFAIK BMW doesn't officially competes with the G20 B48 so you have never been there either. I know of some other teams that do, like Bilstein, but AFAIK not BMW (yet).

Who is going to tell him?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ultrared93

Perhaps you are not aware of the latest US gasoline standards.
"Starting January 1, 2017, EPA requires that federal gasoline will contain an average of 10 ppm sulfur on an annual basis." The latest reference to Euro standards I could find is Euro 5 standard (EN 590:2009) implemented in January of 2009 that also specifies a 10ppm sulfur limit. So, the USA may have gotten there later, but seems to be in line with European regs.

Yep. And every single UOA I have seen in last few years confirms that.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ultrared93

Perhaps you are not aware of the latest US gasoline standards.
"Starting January 1, 2017, EPA requires that federal gasoline will contain an average of 10 ppm sulfur on an annual basis." The latest reference to Euro standards I could find is Euro 5 standard (EN 590:2009) implemented in January of 2009 that also specifies a 10ppm sulfur limit. So, the USA may have gotten there later, but seems to be in line with European regs.

Euro 5 spec should be 10ppm sulfur max, while US spec is 10ppm average, 80ppm max at refinery gate, and 95ppm max downstream.

So US gasoline can still have a lot more sulfur than Euro one.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Euro 5 spec should be 10ppm sulfur max, while US spec is 10ppm average, 80ppm max at refinery gate, and 95ppm max downstream.

So US gasoline can still have a lot more sulfur than Euro one.

That is left as transition. It is much harder to implement max 10ppm in the US than Europe bcs. size of the country (area), source of crude (Venezuelan oil is most saturated in sulfur). So, they left that for companies to adjust in time.
From business stand point, it does not make sense to have fuel from one rafinery that has very high sulfur levels (even before it was way below 85ppm). Oil recommendations for cars indicate what car manufacturers see at gas stations. All European companies moved to low-SAPS oils, BMW being, as usual, one very confusing. They recommend for example both Low-SAPS like LL17FE, and high-SAPS LL01FE.
Mercedes moved completely to low-SAPS MB229.51/52 and MB229.71 as well as VW: VW504.00/507.00 and VW508.00/509.00. RS models get VW511.00.

[Emily172013]

Interesting and informative thread. Here is what I do to sleep good at night:
2020M340i will use Liqui Moly 0w-20 now that my 3 dealer fills end. And, I sometimes wonder what the hell the dealer used. Their invoice says 0w-20?
My 2005 330ci gets Mobil 1 0w-40.
My 2022 Audi Q3 gets Liqui Moly 0w-20.
That being said I'm sure our modern cars will die of electrical or transmission problems long before the engine wears out if you at least follow the manufactures oil change interval. I change once a year and never seem to put more than 7k in that time, so all is good.

[ericold]

Originally Posted by edycol

First, you are confusing what is thick and what is thin. That doesn’t have anything with CCP, or 0W or 5W. Thicker or thinner means KV100, or second number.
.

Originally Posted by edycol

Again you are shooting in the dark. More reading.
HTHS is everything. All BMW approvals are based on HTHS!
CCP is important, but thick and thin debate is not about CCP but KV100 and VI doesn’t have anything to do with it.
.

i am a little bit confused ,i must say. we talked about it 2 times and to my relevant question about what shows thickness of an oil ,grade or hths you said HTHS. now you say KV is what names thicks or thin an oil. can you please explain what you mean?

Originally Posted by edycol

Well, I worked on oils that had to pass BMW, MB and VW approvals, so API comes to
Me as surprise. I must tell people I worked with that all this time we were wrong.
HTHS is measured differently. It is viscosity at 150c. It is measured using SAME methodology as CCP measurements. Grade is IRRELEVANT in BMW approvals as well as MB (VW is the only one tying grade to approvals). 150c is normal temperature at certian engine parts and gives manufacturers far better indication of oil film where it matters as same grade (since that is range) can have far different HTHS value. 30 could mean anything. It could mean HTHS of 2.9 in some mediocre ILSAC XW30 oil or 3.58cP in Castrol Edge 0W30 or 3.7 in Redline Performance 5W30.

is there a 30 grade oil that has a HTHS over 3.6 right now?

[ultrared93]

Originally Posted by ericold

is there a 30 grade oil that has a HTHS over 3.6 right now?

Redline 5W30 has an HTHS of 3.7.
https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f..._INFO_2022.pdf

[ericold]

one with approval as edycol suggests

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ericold

is there a 30 grade oil that has a HTHS over 3.6 right now?

The thin vs. thick dabate is whether engines are ok using w20 or let’s say W40. It is not only debate regarding BMW, but all vehicles.
Only reason why there is move towards thinner oils is CAFE.
Yes, it is related to HTHS as LL17FE is min 2.6Cp and max 2.9cp. That means be default 0W20 oils. Car manufacturers won’t put HTHS in manual as it is really confusing. In real world mpg between 0W20 and 0W40 for example, or HTHS 2.6 and 3.6 is not noticeable. In controlled environment, it is and for manufacturers it really matters if EPA says 25 or let’s say 27mpg.
There are certain benefits to thinner oils. In short commute, thinner oils are better. Doing 2-3 miles one way, yes, in B48 0W20 is better than 0W40 as KV40 is lower.
Now, when one makes car, calculation is not what enthusiasts want, but majority of buyers. Majority of buyers want fast car, good mpg. Can this oil get that car over finish line, meaning before buyer trades it in? That is what matters to manufacturers. To buyers too, unless buyer want long term vehicle or tracks vehicle.
It seems some people here don’t understand that after Mazda Miata, BMW’s are most common vehicles on track, and people use all kind of oils on track, without problems. BMW, doesn’t care about track, unless M models.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ultrared93

Redline 5W30 has an HTHS of 3.7.
https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f..._INFO_2022.pdf

But it doesn’t have approvals. Redline additive package is more indicative of street/track oil. Street oils a much better for everyday driving and occasional track day, than track oils in street environment and occasional track day.

[ericold]

except KV40 ,shouldn't we consider other parameters like fuel dilution,DI engine fault injection ,short commute yes but fast acceleration etc.
isn't a higher hths help for all that? is a 3.6 hths enough for such use and all these tech parameters?

[ultrared93]

Originally Posted by edycol

But it doesn’t have approvals. Redline additive package is more indicative of street/track oil. Street oils a much better for everyday driving and occasional track day, than track oils in street environment and occasional track day.

Agreed, but the question I answered did not limit a response to those that either meet manufacturer's requirements or actually have approvals.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ultrared93

Agreed, but the question I answered did not limit a response to those that either meet manufacturer's requirements or actually have approvals.

Agree. Generally oils with higher Ester content will have better KV100/HTHS ratio.