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      06-26-2020, 10:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AUSf22 View Post
The peeps at Tesla just had a tiny shudder ..
Tesla is at least a decade ahead of BMW.

I know BMW will make awesome EVs just like they have done with ICE cars. However, BMW will have to build a large network of chargers worldwide or pay Tesla big money to use theirs. Charging away from home will be their biggest challenge.
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      06-26-2020, 10:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Schoch said a dedicated electric platform is needed if the German luxury carmaker is not to be overtaken by competitors from California - like electric car company Tesla (TSLA.O) - or from China.

Via Reuters
Not to be overtaken?

It was overtaken a long time ago. TESLA is worth more than all German automakers combined.

I say too little too late
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      06-27-2020, 02:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
The problem is, they should have begun the research 10 years ago, or at least 5 years ago. Now their only chance is to buy a platform, starting research now is probably useless.
i3 ??? It was on the market in 2013. They have the knowladge to build BEVs. i4 is to be released soon, same with iX3...
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      06-27-2020, 09:51 AM   #26
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Will BMW still be an independent company when they catch up with the state of the art in EV's?
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      06-27-2020, 11:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by rjd598 View Post
I don’t think Tesla cares
Why wouldn’t they care?
Actually they’re the ones who care most about this news, as they’re specifically targeting BMW customers in the US.
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      06-27-2020, 11:55 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
Not to be overtaken?

It was overtaken a long time ago. TESLA is worth more than all German automakers combined.

I say too little too late
I don’t think they mean market valuation.
Also, it’s not too little too late considering there’s nothing dominant in the market other than Tesla.

Tesla is the car of the future, but they’re more like Honda of the feature. I’m hoping i4 to be the BMW if the feature.
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      06-27-2020, 11:59 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
Tesla is at least a decade ahead of BMW.

I know BMW will make awesome EVs just like they have done with ICE cars. However, BMW will have to build a large network of chargers worldwide or pay Tesla big money to use theirs. Charging away from home will be their biggest challenge.
Building a car is not just about engine. Tesla might be 10 years ahead in terms of EV engines, but they’re about 100 years behind in terms of everything else, including service&dealer network. Also, BMW don’t need to pay Tesla any big bucks to use any of the technologies they have, since Tesla’s tech is open source thanks to an idealist running the company - Elon Musk.
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      06-27-2020, 12:41 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
Not to be overtaken?

It was overtaken a long time ago. TESLA is worth more than all German automakers combined.

I say too little too late
I don’t think they mean market valuation.
Also, it’s not too little too late considering there’s nothing dominant in the market other than Tesla.

Tesla is the car of the future, but they’re more like Honda of the feature. I’m hoping i4 to be the BMW if the feature.
Well they were overtaken in battery technology, range, self-driving, charging network, infotainment

Even the i4 was never designed to be full electric, so I still has to accommodate for non-ev platform stuff so it will always be a compromise

Some how tesla manages to do more with less. Their batteries are not the biggest but you get the best performance and the best range of any EV at a cheaper price
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      06-27-2020, 12:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Building a car is not just about engine. Tesla might be 10 years ahead in terms of EV engines, but they’re about 100 years behind in terms of everything else, including service&dealer network. Also, BMW don’t need to pay Tesla any big bucks to use any of the technologies they have, since Tesla’s tech is open source thanks to an idealist running the company - Elon Musk.
I'm not even sure I buy that they are ten years ahead in tech.

People go on and on about their batteries, but the whole design is based on the fact that cylindrical cells were the easiest to produce and were the cheapest commodity off the shelf design in the early 2010s. It simply wasn't feasible to use prismatics back then. They've done some great work to keep them cool and make the most of them, and sure they've customized the chemistry in some basic ways for EVs but flat cells are easier to heat sink. Tesla have switched to those in some markets as the price and availability of prismatic cells comes down. This is ignoring that they may yet produce a great solid state battery as rumored, maybe that will happen and we will see if the competition can catch up with that.

Porsche's 800 volt tech is superior to the current Tesla vehicle power distribution, higher voltage reduces cabling thickness and weight.

I suspect that Tesla is mostly superior in range because they push their safety thresholds to the limit. They learn they can let the batteries get 2° hotter without obvious effects, or they tweak the HVAC heater/AC to be less effective to market high range. When you get it on the road in heat or cold, those tweaks fall away.

I suppose it can be considered an advantage that they have enough data to pull back the safety nets, as opposed to someone like Audi who reserves a significant chunk of the battery capacity to ensure that DC charging is consistent speed and doesn't damage the battery. Audi may not need to be so conservative, if they had more data.

I feel like there are a great many car manufacturers with some EV experience gained over the last decade, there are a lot of PHEVs out there, at least. Some auto makers will benefit from the current state of battery tech and OEM equipment from the likes of Bosch and Delphi, get a jump start and avoid tech debt.

Tesla has done some great things for the industry and put the pressure on. However, when you're the first you end up solving problems that are more to do with being first and perhaps throwing away your efforts. You make the mistakes others won't have to in the name of bringing the whole sector forward.

This article hurts me though, because BMW *is* super late to the party. For all the evolution going on they've been slow to react. All I can think is FINALLY!
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      06-27-2020, 06:32 PM   #32
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Making the decision to create a dedicated platform for EVs is a very difficult proposition for every automobile manufacturer. Cost pressures make a modular platform - capable of supporting EVs and ICE vehicles - a more practical choice.

BMW needs to significantly improve it's internal software competency to differentiate where it matters: battery management, energy recapture, driver experience, and connected services.
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      06-27-2020, 06:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post

This article hurts me though, because BMW *is* super late to the party. For all the evolution going on they've been slow to react. All I can think is FINALLY!
I appreciate your informative post.
But I'm not sure BMW is super late to the party, as I believe they sell more EVs than any other premium manufacturer - except for Tesla. Yes, they're behind Tesla, but so are all other brands... So there isn't really a party to be late for, there's that one guy chilling by himself
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      06-27-2020, 07:17 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post

This article hurts me though, because BMW *is* super late to the party. For all the evolution going on they've been slow to react. All I can think is FINALLY!
I appreciate your informative post.
But I'm not sure BMW is super late to the party, as I believe they sell more EVs than any other premium manufacturer - except for Tesla. Yes, they're behind Tesla, but so are all other brands... So there isn't really a party to be late for, there's that one guy chilling by himself
Yeah, I mentioned a lot or manufacturers have some sort of experience, usually PHEV. But really, what has BMW released in the last five years? A retrofit X3 for the China market? I guess the X5 40e counts? Still waiting on a pure 200+ mile mainstream EV from them.
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      06-27-2020, 07:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
This article hurts me though, because BMW *is* super late to the party. For all the evolution going on they've been slow to react. All I can think is FINALLY!
I still don't get where BMW is late to the party is coming from. How are they any worse than what Audi or Mercedes have done and put out up to today?

The GLC 350e is the only EV/hybrid Mercedes in Canada and that's just now being sold in 2020. The Audi e-tron has only been available since 2018 and reviews have been nothing but average to disappointing. BMW has had the i3 and i8 since 2013/2014. So how is BMW so late to the party when they have had consumer electric/hybrid products on the road longer than both Audi and Mercedes?

Just based on real-world data and consumer application, BMW a has a minimum of 3-4 years on Audi and Mercedes. If I'm wrong, someone please tell me because I can't understand how BMW gets slammed for being "slow" when Audi and Mercedes have not much to show for either.
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      06-27-2020, 08:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
This article hurts me though, because BMW *is* super late to the party. For all the evolution going on they've been slow to react. All I can think is FINALLY!
I still don't get where BMW is late to the party is coming from. How are they any worse than what Audi or Mercedes have done and put out up to today?

The GLC 350e is the only EV/hybrid Mercedes in Canada and that's just now being sold in 2020. The Audi e-tron has only been available since 2018 and reviews have been nothing but average to disappointing. BMW has had the i3 and i8 since 2013/2014. So how is BMW so late to the party when they have had consumer electric/hybrid products on the road longer than both Audi and Mercedes?

Just based on real-world data and consumer application, BMW a has a minimum of 3-4 years on Audi and Mercedes. If I'm wrong, someone please tell me because I can't understand how BMW gets slammed for being "slow" when Audi and Mercedes have not much to show for either.
Audi and Mercedes are late to the party too. Not saying they aren't.

At least I have an E-tron to consider. I was excited about the iX3 until we found out that it's a very limited car in function and market. If it was more powerful (under 5 seconds to 60) I would probably have an E-from right now.

If I want an EV (not a hybrid) there is literally no BMW option. The i4 is the next hope, slated to start production at the end of 2021 and hit the market in the first half of 2022... two years from now.

In the next year we will see several fully electric VWs, the Volvo XC40 Recharge, the Polestar 2, Kia and Hyundai have their options, the Ford Mach-E, an SUV and a truck from Rivian, maybe a truck from Lordstown, and probably more, this is just off the top of my head. And BMW is hoping for maybe a retrofit sedan platform a year late, and is just now considering a commitment to a dedicated electric platform?

I guess I just get this sense that they were doing so well early in the decade, that they sort of squandered their momentum after the i3. There will be so many EV options available in the next six months, and BMW is absent.
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      06-27-2020, 08:51 PM   #37
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This is a step BMW has to take, much to the chagrin of us enthusiasts.

All automakers are late to the EV game. VW Group got on it the fastest but Audi's first EV has been a total flop. And I can't even tell if Merc's EV SUV has been launched or not.

Even though Audi/MB technically beat BMW when it came to unveiling/launching their EVs, they really haven't in practice.

The weird thing is that nearly a decade ago BMW launched the i3/i8 so they appeared like they'd be a leader in electrification after Tesla. In hindsight both of those projects were misguided and BMW should have made them full EVs, or at least put that PHEV powertrain into a more "normal" looking car rather than the turd looking i3.
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      06-27-2020, 08:57 PM   #38
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Oh I guess if we are going to be fair maybe we can consider the Mini Cooper SE! Sort of a short range EV option vaguely from BMW.
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      06-27-2020, 08:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
This is a step BMW has to take, much to the chagrin of us enthusiasts.

All automakers are late to the EV game. VW Group got on it the fastest but Audi's first EV has been a total flop. And I can't even tell if Merc's EV SUV has been launched or not.

Even though Audi/MB technically beat BMW when it came to unveiling/launching their EVs, they really haven't in practice.

The weird thing is that nearly a decade ago BMW launched the i3/i8 so they appeared like they'd be a leader in electrification after Tesla. In hindsight both of those projects were misguided and BMW should have made them full EVs, or at least put that PHEV powertrain into a more "normal" looking car rather than the turd looking i3.
Interestingly enough I hear the E-tron has done well in Europe.

I don't immediately know what else Audi has going on but VW (and their other brands) will have several full EVs on the market, probably at least 18 months before the i4 will arrive.
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      06-28-2020, 01:00 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
Tesla is at least a decade ahead of BMW.

I know BMW will make awesome EVs just like they have done with ICE cars. However, BMW will have to build a large network of chargers worldwide or pay Tesla big money to use theirs. Charging away from home will be their biggest challenge.
Building a car is not just about engine. Tesla might be 10 years ahead in terms of EV engines, but they’re about 100 years behind in terms of everything else, including service&dealer network. Also, BMW don’t need to pay Tesla any big bucks to use any of the technologies they have, since Tesla’s tech is open source thanks to an idealist running the company - Elon Musk.
Such a clouded view

I will bet 10/1 that the Tesla Model 3 Performance will crush the upcoming BMW i4

Tesla has the entire car industry beat with their worldwide supercharger network and their battery factories
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      06-28-2020, 07:12 AM   #41
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Isn't the iNext/iX built on an electric only platform?
At least I thought so...

Getting an i3 in 2015 was an eye-opener for me. Fantastic car.
Getting a Model S in 2016 was a huge disappointment in build quality, handling and service.
Getting an i-Pace in 2020 made me believe EV is the future again. Also a fantastic car.
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      06-28-2020, 07:25 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by BMWGirlFL View Post
Good catch! Would like to read Der Spiegel article with quote in top post but can't find one.
I assume it will be in tomorrow's print edition (SPIEGEL is out every Monday). They routinely issue these kind of press releases/prior notifications/Vorabmeldung in german (picked up via Reuters in this case) about upcoming articles in their print editions including some soundbytes.

I'm a bit baffled why this is supposed to be breaking news or so fascinating (for the average reader, mind you, not the Bimmerpost crowd) as to warrant this, but oh well.

They have (parts of) an interview with Manfred Schoch online from a few weeks ago where they discuss home office in the times of Corona, so maybe I'm wrong, or maybe both are parts of a larger interview that will be released in full soon.
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      06-28-2020, 07:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by mbanck View Post
I assume it will be in tomorrow's print edition (SPIEGEL is out every Monday). They routinely issue these kind of press releases/prior notifications/Vorabmeldung in german (picked up via Reuters in this case) about upcoming articles in their print editions including some soundbytes.

I'm a bit baffled why this is supposed to be breaking news or so fascinating (for the average reader, mind you, not the Bimmerpost crowd) as to warrant this, but oh well.

They have (parts of) an interview with Manfred Schoch online from a few weeks ago where they discuss home office in the times of Corona, so maybe I'm wrong, or maybe both are parts of a larger interview that will be released in full soon.
Baffled with you! Spiegel article online now (6/27) but pay only. https://magazin.spiegel.de/SP/2020/2...545/index.html. Economy related?
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      06-28-2020, 08:50 AM   #44
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FWIW, all auto-makers can try and improve on the performance of EV, but for the up and coming generation, it won't matter. The real(long-term) future will belong to who-ever ends up owning the increasingly smaller market for privately-owned autos, and drives the Uber and rental vehicle business. Kids, for the most part, could care less about owning an expensive item that sits in the garage or on the street for 20hrs a day and more about their I-phones.

Uber-like business models will own the market and auto-makers, if they were honest, see it coming. Gotta travel more than 100-200miles? That's what they make helo's and planes for.
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