[G4BR13L]

I am test driving the Tesla Model 3 on the 23rd, I am curious on how it compares to my M4.

[sbt007]

The main problem I see with the tesla is the interior. Too many things to list but need some more physical buttons, scale down that ugly LCD, more interior options and so on. Sat in a model X and it was lacking all around (to me) and I cannot imagine sitting there everyday. I'm sure the driving experience is good by all accounts (minus the lack of engine noise).

[ecaedus]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Yes but Tesla suffers from atrocious after sales support (Most of it caused by poor quality control at the factory and the other half by overwhelmed and understaffed service centers).

Spare parts are hard to come by and stories of people losing their Teslas to their "approved" body shops for minor repair work that can take months and generate staggering repair bills.

You can find stories in the Tesla forums. The cars might look and drive great but pray that you will never have a problem or that someone runs into you.

I can attest to some of it. my rear quarter window was smashed a few weeks back, one "approved" shop was going to charge me $1K to fix and i had to wait a month for the part. i was pissed.

Then local tesla center called and said they can have a guy out to my workplace and fix it for $300 within a week. i think at some point it'll make sense to keep everything in house eventually. more control and better margins.

[openwheelracing]

So Tesla came through for you? That's good news. I know Tesla is going the Toyota route with more vertical integration (proven method by Toyotas reputation) so that encouraging for Tesla owners. They mentioned something about keeping parts locally during the last earnings call

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

So Tesla came through for you? That's good news. I know Tesla is going the Toyota route with more vertical integration (proven method by Toyotas reputation) so that encouraging for Tesla owners. They mentioned something about keeping parts locally during the last earnings call

The local Toyota parts department supports its own service department plus zillions of indy shops in the vicinity. That is quite different than Tesla not getting sufficient indy supports (given the total number of Teslas is still quite small).

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The local Toyota parts department supports its own service department plus zillions of indy shops in the vicinity. That is quite different than Tesla not getting sufficient indy supports (given the total number of Teslas is still quite small).

I am not talking about aftermarket parts and indy shops. That will come with time "if" Tesla continue to sell in volume.

I am talking about the vertical integration of parts at Toyota. Less outsourcing, and more control in house. This, in theory, helps with reliability and quality.

Tesla's quality, as far as I can see, is quite good. Yeah some have dust in the paint, yeah some panel gaps are off. However, these issues can be solved with proper corrective action. Door panel gap is easy to adjust. I look at a Tesla like a iPhone now, they all have software glitches from time to time, which can be corrected and improved with OTA update. The hardware on the other hand, is top notch at the time it is sold. Regular cars from GM, BMW and Toyota, are held to a lower standard as far as "tech" and "improvability". No such word, but you get the point.

[530iDriver]

For what I have seen in the Rich Rebuilds channel, I don't believe Tesla wants any Indy involvement in the repair and support of Tesla vehicles out of warranty. They want the owner of the car to continue depending on Tesla service centers for parts distribution and support at Tesla prices. It is pretty much a proprietary car that no one but Tesla can work on.

Heck they can even disable the car if they want talk. Talk about 1984...

[openwheelracing]

Rich Rebuild is making money on Youtube. The more sensationalized the videos are, the more clicks and buzz they generate. With that said, he loves his Teslas (when they are built, or actually delivered).

I seriously doubt Tesla owners will have to resort to only buy parts from Tesla. Tesla is dominating the BEV market at the moment (likely for a while), just wait until more players join the market and catch up.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

I am not talking about aftermarket parts and indy shops. That will come with time "if" Tesla continue to sell in volume.

I am talking about the vertical integration of parts at Toyota. Less outsourcing, and more control in house. This, in theory, helps with reliability and quality.

Tesla's quality, as far as I can see, is quite good. Yeah some have dust in the paint, yeah some panel gaps are off. However, these issues can be solved with proper corrective action. Door panel gap is easy to adjust. I look at a Tesla like a iPhone now, they all have software glitches from time to time, which can be corrected and improved with OTA update. The hardware on the other hand, is top notch at the time it is sold. Regular cars from GM, BMW and Toyota, are held to a lower standard as far as "tech" and "improvability". No such word, but you get the point.

My impression is that Tesla is top-notch on SV tech and battery module hardware and such. However, it skips on auto hardware basics like body-in-white and imaterial and manufacturing and assembly. It is like building an Olympian on top of malformed bone structure or something.

Your observation of BMW/Toyota being low-standard on tech, can be true, for now, but a car is still a car so the auto hardware needs to be solid(and tear-downs show otherwise).

To improve on those Tesla may need to retool its production lines(and halt production), and that's costly. That may be what is happening anyway, as reports say Fremont plant can consistently keep 5k/week Model 3 target.

The inhouse parts supply sounds like a great idea, but Tesla's low volume also means Tesla needs to bear high prices, so there is no free lunch. Toyota/Honda's scales allow them to rip benefits, but Tesla's scale does not.

[openwheelracing]

Disagree on the following, I think we already beat the horse to death.

1. Body in white. It's a stiff chassis with great crash result. It handles like a dream. Munroe complained about it's high cost and over engineering, not the performance of the chassis. It does weigh more than a BMW 330i, but we don't have a proper.competitor.from BMW to compare the weigh for at least couple more years.

2. "Auto hardware" is top notch according to the tear down by Munroe Associates. Not sure how you interpreted otherwise.

[bavarianride]

Do test drive G20 before committing to Model 3, G20 is really that good!

[moltenfire]

In Canada, a 2020 BMW M340i xDrive with metallic paint, premium excellence package, 2VF adaptive M suspension, with freight & PDI has an MSRP almost the same as a Tesla Model 3 in Black with AWD, Enhanced Autopilot, and documentation fees. Both are around CAD$75k. I test drive a Tesla Model 3 AWD in the snow and it was a beast (although the wipers froze and we had to pound on the door handles to get ice off). Am waiting to test drive a M340i xDrive in the summer and see what discounts dealers give. No EV rebate in Ontario.

The decision is not easy!


Here's my pros/cons list:
All PROs below. A CON is the other car's PRO.

BMW M340i xDrive (CAD$75000 MSRP with PDI & Friends before tax)
- Laserlight high beams
- Faster 0-100 (4.4 v. 4.8 secs)
- Choice of colours - Sunset Orange or Portimao Blue
- Standard Performance non-RFT Tires / Heads Up Display / Wireless Charging / Apple CarPlay / FM/AM/Sat
- Heated steering wheel
- Cross traffic alert/blind spot lights in mirror & vibrate
- Can negotiate lower than MSRP -> may be several thousands $$ difference
- Can lease
- European Delivery


Tesla Model 3 Black AWD EAP (CAD$75800 with doc fees before tax)
- Enhanced Autopilot is a better Autopilot
- Larger sunroof (but doesn't open)
- EV drivetrain
- Software updates
- Air Conditioned/Warmed cabin without idling

[bavarianride]

A colleague moved from E90 to Model 3 last December, I will try to get him to test drive G20 and provide unabridged feedback

[Sportstick]

We should take no pleasure in anyone else's failures, but this was certainly anticipated by some.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tesl...ty-survey.html

Before anyone starts bashing CR, this is not their editorial opinion of the car (which was good), but a survey of Model 3 owners in sufficient sample size for statistical reliability.

Nice to see BMW doing well, and surprisingly far above MB. I wouldn't have expected to see Audi where it turned out based on my experience, but that reinforces the risk of relying on a single/small sample....our 2016 A6 was quite poor quality.

And, how about those folks at Subaru!

[Cortexiphan]

I had a Tesla Model S P80D for a week, in the summer of 2017. I would describe it as very impressive if you don't like cars. The speed, the screen, the spaceship sound is very interesting and it has the wow factor.
But it's amazing to me how some people complain about BMW's steering feel, or weight, or driving dynamics in some cases; then they say Tesla is great. I mean if the focus is steering, weight, driving dynamics; Tesla is not in that conversation. It has the performance of a Ferrari, but the breaks and suspension of a Camry. Sure, the weight is at the bottom, which helps with the balance, but balance is not everything, and you don't even feel it much since the steering is Ford F-150 bad.
Switching back to my M4 that I had back then was a revelation. The steering, the seats, the interior, the build quality, and the overall driving feel of the car was much better than Tesla Model S, which was more expensive than the M4.
Oh, also, if you're claiming that Tesla Model 3 has a 'quality' or 'well built' interior, you don't even know what 'well built' means.. Sorry.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

I had a Tesla Model S P80D for a week, in the summer of 2017. I would describe it as very impressive if you don't like cars. The speed, the screen, the spaceship sound is very interesting and it has the wow factor.
But it's amazing to me how some people complain about BMW's steering feel, or weight, or driving dynamics in some cases; then they say Tesla is great. I mean if the focus is steering, weight, driving dynamics; Tesla is not in that conversation. It has the performance of a Ferrari, but the breaks and suspension of a Camry. Sure, the weight is at the bottom, which helps with the balance, but balance is not everything, and you don't even feel it much since the steering is Ford F-150 bad.
Switching back to my M4 that I had back then was a revelation. The steering, the seats, the interior, the build quality, and the overall driving feel of the car was much better than Tesla Model S, which was more expensive than the M4.
Oh, also, if you're claiming that Tesla Model 3 has a 'quality' or 'well built' interior, you don't even know what 'well built' means.. Sorry.

Have u driven Model 3, and if so, how do u compare that to your Model S experience?

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

You can find way more of the same type stories right here on bimmerpost. Tesla is no worse. Actually, my personal experience with my local Tesla service center has been better than with the BMW dealership.

Anecdotal evidence < Statistical evidence. This is a BMW owners' website where owners post their problems. Of course you'll see a bunch of them.

But statistacally, Tesla is way behind in terms of support and reliability.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Have u driven Model 3, and if so, how do u compare that to your Model S experience?

I didn't drive the Model 3, I just checked it out at the dealer. I think Model S interior is better. And even though button-less port-less feature is nice, and it's fine on an iPhone; but I don't really understand why the driver should go into a touch screen menu and a sub-menu to open the sunroof or something. I guess the idea there is that the car will be self-driving anyway, so you don't have to keep your eyes on the road. But no one can claim it's a good design ergonomically.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Anecdotal evidence < Statistical evidence. This is a BMW owners' website where owners post their problems. Of course you'll see a bunch of them.

Exactly. Now please look at the post I was responding to.

But statistacally, Tesla is way behind in terms of support and reliability.

(citation needed)

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

I don't really understand why the driver should go into a touch screen menu and a sub-menu to open the sunroof or something.

Especially when the car has a fixed glass roof. Right?

[530iDriver]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopni...1832791379/amp

Tesla Model 3 no longer recommended by Consumer Reports.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Exactly. Now please look at the post I was responding to.

(citation needed)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ey/1748024002/

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...reliable-cars/

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-tr...vey-06-09-2018

Do you need more? They're all around the place. Tesla appears to be the absolute worst by a mile, even behind brands like Alfa Romeo that are well known with reliability issues.

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Especially when the car has a fixed glass roof. Right?

Sorry, miss-remembered. That was Model S. But vipers, cruise control, drive modes and many other things that you need to switch while driving are all on-screen. When germans will hopefully come up with competitors, I'm pretty sure we won't have Camry breaks-weird ergonomics-panel gaps.