[ScottAndrew]

I'd argue the Mini is BMW's US sub-brand. In the USA, the Ford, Chevy, and RAM pickup trucks have a far more diverse market position and demand than BMW could ever dream of.

Easy to do, in one or two countries with a homogeneous population and a service support system that doesn't need translation into any other language. There's nothing much diverse about that!

If those were global vehicles, mind, you'd have a point. But there are no global vehicles, because the differences in requirements are vast and diverging at speed, and it's clear that small BMW sedans with IC or IC-hybrid drivetrains are essentially irrelevant for you, whereas massive trucks and electric motors are in future.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I checked the recalls due to fires just for the E90X vs. the Center for Auto Safety's want of the Kia, which states there are 2.9M Kia that should be recalled. The E9X has two fire-related recalls affecting 1.6M vehicles. It was a joke man, relax. The point is the E9X has had 10 total separate recall campaigns over it's lifecycle... quality.

Ah, it was recall volumes, not sales volumes, apologies.

My previous experience of BMW recalls was 2 in 16 years for the e46, both airbag-related, although my car was a saloon that did not suffer the torn-subframe problem. I wasn't aware the E90 had so many problems. But then I bypassed and went to a 2 series, which is the most reliable car in its class. (Where I live, but I suppose I shouldn't bother qualifying it with that any more )

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

For some reason you decided to get in on a discussion I had with another Poster. He missed my point about driver control, which is not the same as engagement, which is a word as well as description of action; I am focusing on the action. I prefer a manual transmission because it gives greater control over the act of driving the vehicle, which is why I disagree that modern automatics are superior to a manual transmission. If you want to call it purist, then that's fine. A manumatic, paddle-shifted automatic transmission offers as much "engagement" with the vehicle as a manual transmission, yet it doesn't provide the same level of control. Yup, I get it, a manumatic provides convenience of not having to use one's left leg as part of the act driving when in heavy traffic, and provides some similitude of manually shifting the transmission's gears; however, it is not an exact replacement. From my point of view, I don't find manually shifting the transmission with a foot-operated clutch as inconvenient, even in heavy traffic.

Explain what you mean by control? What are you trying to do that an auto can't?

I disagree that a smg/dct offers as much engagement as a manual. Most who prefer a manual is trying to hang on to the physical act of rowing their own gears and the engagement and experience that goes along with that. I support that as a valid argument and it is why I still own a manual car.

However, I don't get my underwear in a bunch just because BMW decided to not offer a manual in their latest crappy 3series. I am not their target market so I will not fault them for not caring about my needs.

[cdgatti]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Hummm... the E21 was only available in the USA with the M10 4-cylinder, while Europe it was offered with the M20. The E30 was originally offered with the M10, until the eta M20 was offered as the first US-Market 3-series with a BMW straight-six. The E30 didn't get much respect with both under-powered engines. When the E30 was finally offered with the M20B25 starting in 1987 was it a respectable car in the US. BMW sold the 1st and 2nd generation 7-series in the USA with a manual transmission option.

I'd argue the Mini is BMW's US sub-brand. In the USA, the Ford, Chevy, and RAM pickup trucks have a far more diverse market position and demand than BMW could ever dream of.

Good point about the Mini, do they offer a less expensive/stripped down version with a manual? I think that could be a fun car, not too expensive car - but from what I have seen the Mini is also getting pretty gussied up lately.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tdott

Explain what you mean by control? What are you trying to do that an auto can't?

I disagree that a smg/dct offers as much engagement as a manual. Most who prefer a manual is trying to hang on to the physical act of rowing their own gears and the engagement and experience that goes along with that. I support that as a valid argument and it is why I still own a manual car.

However, I don't get my underwear in a bunch just because BMW decided to not offer a manual in their latest crappy 3series. I am not their target market so I will not fault them for not caring about my needs.

Of the few automatics I've driven in the 3-series and ATS, you cannot engage neutral from any gear. With a manual transmission, the ability of gaining neutral (i.e. clutch in) is sometimes vital to maintaining control of the vehicle, especially in inclement weather.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tdott

Explain what you mean by control? What are you trying to do that an auto can't?

I disagree that a smg/dct offers as much engagement as a manual. Most who prefer a manual is trying to hang on to the physical act of rowing their own gears and the engagement and experience that goes along with that. I support that as a valid argument and it is why I still own a manual car.

However, I don't get my underwear in a bunch just because BMW decided to not offer a manual in their latest crappy 3series. I am not their target market so I will not fault them for not caring about my needs.

What will you say when the M no longer offers a manual?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Using your logic, the Wright Brother's Plane is better than any modern day Boeing Jet, not to mention Henry Ford's Model T when it comes to Automobiles.

Every vehicle (or aircraft) since the original is worse according to your logic.

Ah the Luddite argument, keep with that.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by 10"

eh...i'm talking about their sports cars. i don't care about SUVs.

THere is already talk that the 718 will be their last cayman / boxster because it doesn't sell well and they are debating not updating it to the new interior style in the 992 carerra.

If that happens in 2021 or whatever model year, well the cheapest "sports car" porsche sells will start at $100k

[hans007]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've owned a BMW 3-series for 30+ years (4 cars in all including the Z3 and Z4, which are based on the 3-series chassis - three of that I still have). I've spent several thousands of miles behind the wheel 3 different E21's (the first BMW I ever drove circa 1978). A proper 3-series has a manual transmission; the G20 doesn't offer a manual trans in the US.

BMW has become nothing more than a purveyor of poser sports sedans (M-brand excluded) and over-powered gaudy SUVs, all built upon a sports sedan reputation earned in the 1970's and strengthened in the 1980's and somewhat maintained during the 1990's, until Lexus came upon the automotive marketplace. It then chased Lexus for the luxury crown, when Lexus was actually targeting Mercedes Benz. While it's perfectly fine for BMW to chase the luxury and SUV trends, it should still offer a well-balanced, non-M brand 3 series with a manual transmission.

I may be going against the grain here, but what I really want from BMW is a normal car that is sporty. I don't think "its goes really fast 0-60" is what a sports sedan is, I just want that feel. And yes ok maybe there is a little more feel in an f80 right now than a f30. But if the G20 and G80 feel the same to drive but the G80 is way faster I don't think that makes it more of a sports car for me.

I wan't to say given the average person I see driving an F80 (in los angeles where I live anyway) probably never tracks it, or actually knows how to drive it, I'd guess it would be fair to say that M division is just a car for poseurs , that is mildly more sporty than the normal version of that car. But at least the people driving a 330i , aren't trying to scream I'm something other than a guy that needed a car to get them to work and back and hopefully has a little more passion in it.

I'm hoping the G20 has that. But I'd never think a G20 is much less of a sports sedan than the M version of it same generation. They are ultimately going to be way too similar other than power. Does sports sedan mean normal version of sedan with way more HP you can't use and a brutal suspension?

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I checked the recalls due to fires just for the E90X vs. the Center for Auto Safety's want of the Kia, which states there are 2.9M Kia that should be recalled. The E9X has two fire-related recalls affecting 1.6M vehicles. It was a joke man, relax. The point is the E9X has had 10 total separate recall campaigns over it's lifecycle... quality.

But the E9x had a manual.

You keep changing your parameters to suit your needs.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Ah the Luddite argument, keep with that.

No, the logical extension of your reality.

[cdgatti]

Many Millenials and 30 something's don't even know how to drive a manual transmission - since Autos have been the popular transmission for so many years now. Not everything improves with technology. To get that no-frills, manual driving experience you may have to buy an econobox or better yet maybe a Miata or Fiat Spyder. Just accept the luxury side effortless speed of the new BMW.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Of the few automatics I've driven in the 3-series and ATS, you cannot engage neutral from any gear. With a manual transmission, the ability of gaining neutral (i.e. clutch in) is sometimes vital to maintaining control of the vehicle, especially in inclement weather.

I subscribe to the theory that you never remove the drivetrain (by engaging neutral) while driving. Help us understand why you believe otherwise.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I emphasis again that limiting MT across the range is part of getting BMW's fleet CO2 averages within target levels.

Don't under estimate how emissions are dominating available models. We are seeing reduced model ranges in Europe, simply due to the new WLTP test regime.

This.

I'll add that safety and convenience features like autonomous driving systems are also major drivers of manual transmissions' demise.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

But the E9x had a manual.

You keep changing your parameters to suit your needs.

No, the logical extension of your reality.

What do recalls have to do with the discussion of auto vs. manual?

and...
Exactly what is my reality? LOL

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I subscribe to the theory that you never remove the drivetrain (by engaging neutral) while driving. Help us understand why you believe otherwise.

Ever see some knucklehead in a Mustang GT or M3 leaving a Cars and Coffee trying to do a cool drift, lose it, and then eat a curb? That.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

What do recalls have to do with the discussion of auto vs. manual?

and...
Exactly what is my reality? LOL

Proving you have gone in circles so many times chasing your tail that you have forgotten @Ianman and your original argument praising Hyundai and Kia over BMW.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by hans007

I may be going against the grain here, but what I really want from BMW is a normal car that is sporty. I don't think "its goes really fast 0-60" is what a sports sedan is, I just want that feel. And yes ok maybe there is a little more feel in an f80 right now than a f30. But if the G20 and G80 feel the same to drive but the G80 is way faster I don't think that makes it more of a sports car for me.

I wan't to say given the average person I see driving an F80 (in los angeles where I live anyway) probably never tracks it, or actually knows how to drive it, I'd guess it would be fair to say that M division is just a car for poseurs , that is mildly more sporty than the normal version of that car. But at least the people driving a 330i , aren't trying to scream I'm something other than a guy that needed a car to get them to work and back and hopefully has a little more passion in it.

I'm hoping the G20 has that. But I'd never think a G20 is much less of a sports sedan than the M version of it same generation. They are ultimately going to be way too similar other than power. Does sports sedan mean normal version of sedan with way more HP you can't use and a brutal suspension?

My comment about the M cars is, BMW and other manufacturers are heading to a place where the only version of a sports sedan that is available with a manual transmission will be/is the high-performance high-horsepower version, such as the M3 vs. the 330i (in E90 guise). Like you, I prefer a "normal" sports sedan with decent power, good handling, and a manual transmission. While the M3/M4 is a nice car, it is far above what I need to commute in, and my ego is not based on the badges the car wears.

I've bought BMWs only because of the in-line 6, rear drive, and manual transmission drivetrain. I could give a shit about the Roundel on the hood. Every manufacturer now builds a turbo four cylinder with an 8-speed automatic sports sedan. I was hoping BMW stayed different. Every manufacturer installs some version of iDrive in its cars. I do not see the purpose of such technology and why it adds to the driving experience. It's not a position of being anti-technology, it's that I just don't see the purpose of it other than having something to fuck around with because one is bored of driving.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Proving you have gone in circles so many times chasing your tail that you have forgotten @Ianman and your original argument praising Hyundai and Kia over BMW.

Man, you BMW Fangentlmen get your feelings hurt easily. I didn't praise Hyundai nor Kia over BMW, you have me confused with other posters my friend. I made no such argument; I merely noted that BWM has several million cars under recall for fire-related issues (two of mine are included), where ScottAndrew pointed that Kia was somehow escaping from fire-related recalls. Recalls are just a fact of life in the automotive industry. Relax.

BMW is just average in producing cars as compared to other manufacturers when defects per 100 cars is measured. My experience with BMW and recalls is they pretty much suck at resolving them. You can verify this in other posts of mine (as recently as just earlier last week)... I've owned BMWs for 30 years and over 872,000 combined miles, so I think it's fair to say I like BMWs, I do though, keep my undies wad-free and keep things in perspective.

Have a great evening.

[jmg]

Honestly I liked the design of the F30. I don't think that was the problem.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I prefer a "normal" sports sedan with decent power, good handling, and a manual transmission. While the M3/M4 is a nice car, it is far above what I need to commute in, and my ego is not based on the badges the car wears.

I see exactly where you are coming from. I was expecting as such with the F30 340i. But while it was a fine car to commute in, it didn't quite deliver as much "sport" as I wanted. It didn't thread that line between sport and street as gracefully. It had plenty of power, no doubt, but even with the Track Handling package, it didn't deliver the same sportiness as the previous generations. With the M3, it's like you said, its far above what is needed to commute in, but more closely delivers the handling and performance that a driver focused bimmer should. I sacrificed daily overkill for a more engaging car to drive. There was a time that I thought the non-M 3 series could still do that like the E90 335is. I'm hoping that despite it's size, the G20 can achieve that again.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by jmg

I see exactly where you are coming from. I was expecting as such with the F30 340i. But while it was a fine car to commute in, it didn't quite deliver as much "sport" as I wanted. It didn't thread that line between sport and street as gracefully. It had plenty of power, no doubt, but even with the Track Handling package, it didn't deliver the same sportiness as the previous generations. With the M3, it's like you said, its far above what is needed to commute in, but more closely delivers the handling and performance that a driver focused bimmer should. I sacrificed daily overkill for a more engaging car to drive. There was a time that I thought the non-M 3 series could still do that like the E90 335is. I'm hoping that despite it's size, the G20 can achieve that again.

If I didn't commute 175 miles round trip a day, I'd have something on the order of an M3. The Bullitt Mustang is the current apple of my eye, yet consuming it at 175 miles a day I just can't stomach spending the money; driving it every day that distance I would absolutely love. My MT E90 325i has fit the bill most perfectly for the past 11 years.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by cdgatti

Many Millenials and 30 something's don't even know how to drive a manual transmission - since Autos have been the popular transmission for so many years now. Not everything improves with technology. To get that no-frills, manual driving experience you may have to buy an econobox or better yet maybe a Miata or Fiat Spyder. Just accept the luxury side effortless speed of the new BMW.

I'm 37 so maybe just barely a millennial in the public's eyes.

I learned to drive manualy maybe 7-8 years ago. But I won't say I'm good at it, I live in really urban centers and drive automatic cars. I still think I'd definitely want a second car in manual ( call me crazy but I really want like an 05 3rd gen mr2 poor mans elise ...) but I don't have anywhere to park it.

Even I a guy who has other than maybe 5 days of my life driving exclusively automatic, will admit it feels more fun just to get that shift right. But given where I live and honestly at this point even if I wanted to drive my current car in manual I couldn't I've accepted it will die, I'm just hoping I'll be able to get that used Mr2 or ND mx-5 and second parking spot in the next 5-6 years before manual cars disappear for good