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      07-31-2019, 08:15 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretanchitman View Post
Do we really need coupe SUVs,
If the data says that's what the populace wants, then it is a market worth pursuing. The situation is no different from a four-door coupe version of a passenger car.

It is not typically a successful business strategy to notice that a new idea (be it your own or a competitor's) is bringing in new customers, shake your head at the new and peculiar buyer behavior at play, and then decide to opt out of this new market that has opened up because it does not align with some contrived and arbitrary dogmatic principle.

Quote:
M Performance cars and switching out the coupes and convertibles into even numbered models? I think it should be something like this:

1 (120i/130i/M1)
3 (330i/340i/M3 Sedan/Coupe/Convertible)
5 (530/540i/550i M5 Sedan/Coupe/Convertible)
7 (740i LWB, 750i, LWB)
X1 (30i)
X3 (30i, 40i, X3 M)
X5 (40i, 50i, X5 M)
X7 (40i, 50i)
Z4 (30i, 40i, M)
i3
i8
But renaming products will likely lead to no reduction in costs and does nothing to address those that are not selling well. I understand you are also reducing the number of models, but you do not need to rename anything to achieve that.

Although there is no data available, I would suggest that the adoption of even-numbering for coupes/convertibles/Gran Coupes and the M Performance branding has not hurt revenue. In fact, the latter in particular is almost surely generating more revenue than would be otherwise available. We know that the M name brings clout and luxury vehicle buyers tend to place a lot of value on brand, thereby opening up opportunity for higher pricing. In any case, certainly spending money (it would be a significant amount) to roll things back would be a mistake at this stage.

Regarding model reduction, once we rid the lineup of the GT's, minivans, and other oddities that didn't catch on, coupes and convertible are obvious low hanging fruit, no doubt to the dismay of enthusiasts. The good news? It turns out you can make a passenger car with four doors perform identically to one with two doors in the case where they sit on the same architecture, have the same dimensions, and share chassis components. The thing is that the SUV form factor is the new default choice for the typical buyer, so you no longer need to take the rear doors off a sedan to make a statement with your passenger car. Merely driving a passenger car *period* is the new way to make a statement, like it or not. And so, the demand to have those rear doors nixed is slowly fading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
2. I don't really trust the writer overall, too many opinion references to the design of the cars.. didn't read like a cold informative story.. read more like a political opinion piece which means the author is probably bending some of the truth to fit his narrative
Absolutely. I am skeptical in particular about the X2 being up for cancelation because it has been a swift seller. The 2AT, 2GT, 2 Convertible, i3, 3GT, and 6GT are definitely not getting a reprieve after they've run through their current cycle, though. And I would not be surprised in the least to see the Z4, 8 Coupe, and 8 Convertible gone after this generation either.
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      07-31-2019, 08:44 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
The 2 seat sports car market is booming �� at Porsche ‼️

Porsche doesn't have a shoe for every foot, and as such their business model is absolutely splendid.
Ummmm No. The SUV business is booming at Porsche. North America figures. Non of the 2 seat versions (911/Boxster/Cayman) sell better than 4 door SUV or sedan.

And how many shoe versions does the 911 have? Regular, 4WD, S version, 4WD S version, Targa, Targa 4WD, Vert (4WD/S versions), GTS (multiple versions), Carrera T, Turbo (S and verts), GT3 (touring trim I guess), GT3RS, GT2RS. You can have your 911 any way you want it. At least now they all use the same base wide body shell so makes them more similar and easier to produce.
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      07-31-2019, 08:52 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer View Post
None of the 2 seat versions (911/Boxster/Cayman) sell better than 4 door SUV or sedan.
The 911 is actually outselling the Panamera YTD.

That said, yes, Porsche's biggest sellers are SUVs just as they are for everyone else. However, that doesn't mean their sports car business isn't doing well. Those are still highly profitable due in no small part to huge margins.

(BTW, a 911 is a 2+2 except GT models which have the rear seats removed, but I knew what you meant.)
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      07-31-2019, 08:59 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Is anyone really surprised?

- 4-Cyl as the primary engine
- Anything that made a BMW a BMW is gone (door locks at center dash, RWD, etc)
- Entry level segment vehicles are devaluing the brand
- An M car and an M-Performance car are too close in performance and looks
- M pricing is ridiculous. A $130k for an M8?

They have too many models that the overlapping with each other.

The model line is cluttered and confusing.

This is expected.

THIS!!!!!!!!!
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      07-31-2019, 09:24 AM   #93
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Some posters in this forum are thinking like enthusiasts and that thinking is does not always translate to the real world.

Comparing Porsche to BMW isn't a true apples/apples comparison. Porsche with their two-seaters is a niche vehicle/brand. They have only become more popular because of the Cayenne and even more so with the Macan. It was only a couple of years ago that 70% of Porsche sales worldwide was from SUVs. I'm pretty sure that stat has not deviated much today. I'm not saying that Porsche is dependent on their SUVs, but they play a significant role in Porsche's financial health and outlook.

If you think the Boxster, Cayman and 911 are the reason why Porsche is where they are at in today's automotive landscape, you are mistaken.
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      07-31-2019, 09:25 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
Z4 has always been an odd car I think. It doesn't sell very well and it doesn't fit with BMW demographics. They only brought it back because of Toyota and the partnership.

I would be suspicious if they kill the Z4 early since Supra is important to Toyota.

By the way, I have seen more X2 on the road than the X1 lately. Why kill off the X2? Then just released the 8 series, and is already planning on killing the coupe but says hey the X8 is good to go!!! :
The Z3 and the first generation Z4 sold WELL ENOUGH. It's the E89 (2nd generation) Z4 that sold poorly.
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      07-31-2019, 09:27 AM   #95
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Interesting read here. I feel many of you are disconnected from the rest of the industry thinking BMW is all alone with these issues. World car sales are falling and the entire industry is nearing a major crisis as global demand for vehicles softens. Nissan is in critical condition as we speak. The domestics no longer make passenger cars for North America and are being sustained solely on pickup truck sales. Chryslers is hanging on by a thread and won't likely make another decade. BMW is actually in a pretty good place relative to a lot of other automakers and trimming down their lineup is the correct way to go forward with the automotive pie shrinking globally. The fact that Ferrari is making an SUV should be all you need to know about where the industry is heading as it's all about long term sustainability right now.
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      07-31-2019, 09:31 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
If the data says that's what the populace wants, then it is a market worth pursuing. The situation is no different from a four-door coupe version of a passenger car.

It is not typically a successful business strategy to notice that a new idea (be it your own or a competitor's) is bringing in new customers, shake your head at the new and peculiar buyer behavior at play, and then decide to opt out of this new market that has opened up because it does not align with some contrived and arbitrary dogmatic principle.



But renaming products will likely lead to no reduction in costs and does nothing to address those that are not selling well. I understand you are also reducing the number of models, but you do not need to rename anything to achieve that.

Although there is no data available, I would suggest that the adoption of even-numbering for coupes/convertibles/Gran Coupes and the M Performance branding has not hurt revenue. In fact, the latter in particular is almost surely generating more revenue than would be otherwise available. We know that the M name brings clout and luxury vehicle buyers tend to place a lot of value on brand, thereby opening up opportunity for higher pricing. In any case, certainly spending money (it would be a significant amount) to roll things back would be a mistake at this stage.

Regarding model reduction, once we rid the lineup of the GT's, minivans, and other oddities that didn't catch on, coupes and convertible are obvious low hanging fruit, no doubt to the dismay of enthusiasts. The good news? It turns out you can make a passenger car with four doors perform identically to one with two doors in the case where they sit on the same architecture, have the same dimensions, and share chassis components. The thing is that the SUV form factor is the new default choice for the typical buyer, so you no longer need to take the rear doors off a sedan to make a statement with your passenger car. Merely driving a passenger car *period* is the new way to make a statement, like it or not. And so, the demand to have those rear doors nixed is slowly fading.
I agree - if people want/gravitate towards a certain type of model then by all means. BMW should have capitalized on hybrids and electric but they squandered their lead IMO.

Renaming products might not reduce costs but it will simplify their lineup. Mercedes used to have different models (E/CLK, S/CL, GLK, ML) but now it’s all same. Audi still keeps it separate but that’s another story!

I totally get why M Performance is a thing because more M models means more sales of higher end models (not full M cars but right underneath). It is easy to make more models based on the same platform with minimal risk/low cost so I get why BMW does this.

I still would like the lineup trimmed down regardless of sales and ease of building off a platform.
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      07-31-2019, 09:49 AM   #97
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8 series?

That's bad. Why even bring it.
I bet many people will not even buy it now.
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      07-31-2019, 09:59 AM   #98
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Bet they wouldn't have to kill the z4 off if they stuck with the concept in the first place 🙄
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      07-31-2019, 10:00 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretanchitman View Post
Renaming products might not reduce costs but it will simplify their lineup. Mercedes used to have different models (E/CLK, S/CL, GLK, ML) but now it’s all same. Audi still keeps it separate but that’s another story!
While it is true that Mercedes recently consolidated their two-door, four-seat products into the E and S model lineups (and introduced two new ones in the C model lineup), they also kept the CL* names for the "four door coupe" products. So, while they removed two nameplates - the CLK and CL - they had added the CLA and CLS just a few years earlier. And there is still the possibility of a CLC or CLE four door coupe joining the lineup. This would leave them essentially where BMW is today as far as passenger car model count, the distinction being that their two door models are grouped with sedans instead of the four door coupes (which, frankly, makes less sense in my opinion). However, they would indeed have fewer SUV model names (but still no fewer actual models) since their SUV "coupes" are combined with the standard SUVs ("GLC Coupe", "GLE Coupe"). Incidentally, the GLK and ML weren't removed; they were simply renamed GLC and GLE.

Quote:
I still would like the lineup trimmed down regardless of sales and ease of building off a platform.
Well, as noted in the article (and elsewhere previously) you will get your wish. Many models are being removed from the lineup. But four door coupes and four door SUV coupes aren't going anywhere soon since both are seen as growth opportunities, at least for the time being. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see four door coupes slowly push traditional sedans out over the next 10 to 15 years.
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      07-31-2019, 10:34 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
The 2 seat sports car market is booming �� at Porsche ‼️

Porsche doesn't have a shoe for every foot, and as such their business model is absolutely splendid.
Ummmm No. The SUV business is booming at Porsche. North America figures. Non of the 2 seat versions (911/Boxster/Cayman) sell better than 4 door SUV or sedan.

And how many shoe versions does the 911 have? Regular, 4WD, S version, 4WD S version, Targa, Targa 4WD, Vert (4WD/S versions), GTS (multiple versions), Carrera T, Turbo (S and verts), GT3 (touring trim I guess), GT3RS, GT2RS. You can have your 911 any way you want it. At least now they all use the same base wide body shell so makes them more similar and easier to produce.
Ummmm, I never said their sports cars outsold their SUV's.

Still Porsche will not kill off their sports cars.

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      07-31-2019, 10:38 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
While it is true that Mercedes recently consolidated their two-door, four-seat products into the E and S model lineups (and introduced two new ones in the C model lineup), they also kept the CL* names for the "four door coupe" products. So, while they removed two nameplates - the CLK and CL - they had added the CLA and CLS just a few years earlier. And there is still the possibility of a CLC or CLE four door coupe joining the lineup. This would leave them essentially where BMW is today as far as passenger car model count, the distinction being that their two door models are grouped with sedans instead of the four door coupes (which, frankly, makes less sense in my opinion). However, they would indeed have fewer SUV model names (but still no fewer actual models) since their SUV "coupes" are combined with the standard SUVs ("GLC Coupe", "GLE Coupe"). Incidentally, the GLK and ML weren't removed; they were simply renamed GLC and GLE.



Well, as noted in the article (and elsewhere previously) you will get your wish. Many models are being removed from the lineup. But four door coupes and four door SUV coupes aren't going anywhere soon since both are seen as growth opportunities, at least for the time being. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see four door coupes slowly push traditional sedans out over the next 10 to 15 years.
Yep and their renaming and consolidation makes sense (minus the two door models being grouped with the four door coupes).

GC is here to say, just bummed that the 8 coupe/convertible will die out. I’m surprised they will kill the Z4 considering it just came out and it’s a big collaboration with Toyota! I’d imagine GC models would take over, provided the price is right and people get over the 2+2 configuration.
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      07-31-2019, 10:59 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Is anyone really surprised?

- 4-Cyl as the primary engine
- Anything that made a BMW a BMW is gone (door locks at center dash, RWD, etc)
- Entry level segment vehicles are devaluing the brand
- An M car and an M-Performance car are too close in performance and looks
- M pricing is ridiculous. A $130k for an M8?

They have too many models that the overlapping with each other.

The model line is cluttered and confusing.

This is expected.

I don't think so.
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      07-31-2019, 11:08 AM   #103
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So they kill off cars based on poor margins, but keep a shitty 6 series GT because the boss likes it. Well that figures. I guess financial decisions are not always driven by cold hard facts.

BMW needs to sort out the styling, narrow down the range, and make options less pricey (so people would order more and pay more). They have a bizarre and bloated line up now, and a very questionable car naming as well. Still all they can do is make bigger kidney grilles.

On a second note - I guess buying a brand new low spec 3 series means you're not getting owned by the manufacturer. yey. just take the depreciation in stride. I always felt that bare bones BMWs are the best bang for the buck.
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      07-31-2019, 11:12 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Damn! The 8 Series didn't last long at all. I guess BMW thought it would be a success, but it's proving to fail based on their expectations.
I don't think it's been good or bad. They barely exist.
It's just that the 2 door coupes are on an industry decline and the 8 also is a gas hog.

too bad, it's BMWs best car IMO.
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      07-31-2019, 11:15 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretanchitman View Post
Yep and their renaming and consolidation makes sense (minus the two door models being grouped with the four door coupes).

GC is here to say, just bummed that the 8 coupe/convertible will die out. I’m surprised they will kill the Z4 considering it just came out and it’s a big collaboration with Toyota! I’d imagine GC models would take over, provided the price is right and people get over the 2+2 configuration.
They're not killing Z4 they're not producing a next Gen. this will probably live til 2025 or so.

Also this is just rumors not confirmed. I think they should make a new light weight Z4 hybrid Caterham style competitor to keep it alive and help emissions. There's a way forward for it still just during the upcoming EV transition
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      07-31-2019, 11:51 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeamerandBimmer View Post
Porsche is still around is because of their SUVs.
I don't believe that for a minute. Maybe certain models like the 918 and a couple models like the GT2/GT3/GT4 , but the entire brand does is in no way dependent on a single model.
This is the reason Porsche is still around: PEG and the VW Group's 9 Brands

Porche Engineering Group (PEG), Porsche made its wide-ranging expertise in the development and production of vehicles available to clients from a variety of industries. PEG was considered Porsche's "secret weapon, enabling it to employ more engineers than if it worked alone, giving it an edge in product development.

The ability to scale and create synergies across a number of areas were two driving forces that led Porsche to secure its partnership with VW. As Wiedeking explained, electronics was one area of particular interest: "Electronics account for 30% to 35% of our development costs. Spreading this investment over 2 million cars instead of Porsche's 100,000 will make a big difference and the components will be cheaper." Furthermore, the capital intensity of R&D and required fixed assets in new technologies would be increasing, making it increasingly difficult for a premium-only OEM to survive unless operating in the context of a larger OEM.

Check out the entire article below...

https://mitsloan.mit.edu/LearningEdg...g-Porsche.aspx
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      07-31-2019, 11:54 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I don't think it's been good or bad. They barely exist.
It's just that the 2 door coupes are on an industry decline and the 8 also is a gas hog.

too bad, it's BMWs best car IMO.
Yeah I feel the 8 is a fantastic car that unfortunately is a victim of circumstance with the industry shifting away from cars in general.
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      07-31-2019, 11:55 AM   #108
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man, I so love Georg Hacker as a journalist. absolutely gobs of information in this article.

I'm hanging onto my 440xi GC for 8 years until I'll be in the market for a new car (once the kids get out of college), and I've always known my next car will be a pure EV. gonna be interesting to see how EV development plays out for BMW.

Once I get that EV, I plan to garage my 440 in a barn and take my grandkids out hooning in it ala Red Barchetta by Rush while the air-car cops give chase.
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      07-31-2019, 11:59 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrammer View Post
This is the reason Porsche is still around: PEG and the VW Group's 9 Brands

Porche Engineering Group (PEG), Porsche made its wide-ranging expertise in the development and production of vehicles available to clients from a variety of industries. PEG was considered Porsche's "secret weapon, enabling it to employ more engineers than if it worked alone, giving it an edge in product development.

The ability to scale and create synergies across a number of areas were two driving forces that led Porsche to secure its partnership with VW. As Wiedeking explained, electronics was one area of particular interest: "Electronics account for 30% to 35% of our development costs. Spreading this investment over 2 million cars instead of Porsche's 100,000 will make a big difference and the components will be cheaper." Furthermore, the capital intensity of R&D and required fixed assets in new technologies would be increasing, making it increasingly difficult for a premium-only OEM to survive unless operating in the context of a larger OEM.

Check out the entire article below...

https://mitsloan.mit.edu/LearningEdg...g-Porsche.aspx
There is a bit of spin there but I don't doubt there's plenty of benefits of sharing development costs. Still though hard to ignore the top selling Porsches today are basically Audi platform and engine. If selling their own version of an Audi SUV makes it viable for brand to continue to invest in and build 911's then it seems well worth it to me.
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      07-31-2019, 12:25 PM   #110
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yup, but Porsche made those Audi platform "better" (for us at least, pretty sure some Audi customer will find it too hard)
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