[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

This!

Confirms it is not just the driving experience, (typically put forward by the motoring mags), is of key importance to most users. The ownership experience, of the total 'package', is more important in the real world.

Same here in Europe, we don't see BMW, Merc & Audi users flocking to the Alfa. There is much more than focusing on looks and driving dynamics, when selecting what to drive.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Tracus

In my books Alfa does not outperform (strong word) in any way the BMW. First of all, I will never trade the material quality and fit and finish for very little more performance. If I want an outperforming vehicle, Alfa is not in my books.
No, not a badge thing. I owned many cars, and still own different brand, I just want to see that level of quality I am thirsty for. Alfa really disappoints in every aspect when we are talking about materials and execution.
BMW is the one that defined the sporty luxury vehicle. Alfa was the worse car I have ever owned. I realized why in Europe we call the Italian cars "Gigolo: they are cute but they always disappoint."
BMW is not flawless, but Alfa can't hold a candle to BMW in terms of execution and reliability.

BMW has defined the Sport sedan in 199x and ever since then slipped a notch with the next generation. Lately, their benchmark sport sedan took #3 spot behind Mercedes and Genesis!! And that included all of the stuff you mentioned above.
Your book is obviously biased as is most of us on this forum. However, the reality is that if you get the car for the driving character, you have better options. If you want a car for the comfort and luxury, yes, you have better options.
I am not sure that 330 is the best blend of both.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by drF80

BMW has defined the Sport sedan in 199x and ever since then slipped a notch with the next generation. Lately, their benchmark sport sedan took #3 spot behind Mercedes and Genesis!! And that included all of the stuff you mentioned above.
Your book is obviously biased as is most of us on this forum. However, the reality is that if you get the car for the driving character, you have better options. If you want a car for the comfort and luxury, yes, you have better options.
I am not sure that 330 is the best blend of both.

What are you doing here?

You should be flossing over the Genesis G70 forums...

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by drF80

BMW has defined the Sport sedan in 199x and ever since then slipped a notch with the next generation. Lately, their benchmark sport sedan took #3 spot behind Mercedes and Genesis!! And that included all of the stuff you mentioned above.
Your book is obviously biased as is most of us on this forum. However, the reality is that if you get the car for the driving character, you have better options. If you want a car for the comfort and luxury, yes, you have better options.
I am not sure that 330 is the best blend of both.

As stated before, between these two, the BMW is the best car. I am not biased at all.
Mercedes? Ever seen the rust in those after 3 years? Please have a look. (their rust warranty will confirm it too). Not worth the money.
Genesis? Never looked at one and never will, regardless of how good in the paper will be. But if you feel the need, by all means, go and buy it.

[HighlandPete]

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[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

What are you doing here?

You should be flossing over the Genesis G70 forums...

I am driving what's left of a true BMW...and trying to remain unbiased on the BMW forum.
How about you?

[premier3is]

Originally Posted by drF80

BMW has defined the Sport sedan in 199x and ever since then slipped a notch with the next generation. Lately, their benchmark sport sedan took #3 spot behind Mercedes and Genesis!! And that included all of the stuff you mentioned above.
Your book is obviously biased as is most of us on this forum. However, the reality is that if you get the car for the driving character, you have better options. If you want a car for the comfort and luxury, yes, you have better options.
I am not sure that 330 is the best blend of both.

So why didn't you buy a Mercedes or a Genesis....

[EXE46]

Don't feed the troll, lol at F80 being last true BMW. Genesis should hire him as their PR person, maybe this year with him at the helm they'll sell more G70's than the G20. One would have thought by now he would have sold the F80 and gotten himself a Giulia and the G70 that he likes to extol so much.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by EXE46

Don't feed the troll, lol at F80 being last true BMW. Genesis should hire him as their PR person, maybe this year with him at the helm they'll sell more G70's than the G20. One would have thought by now he would have sold the F80 and gotten himself a Giulia and the G70 that he likes to extol so much.

It is becoming much clearer why BMW has taken this direction reading the lines from "smart" new owners...
Calling someone (whos driven a BMW before you knew how to spell it) a "troll" because pointing out that competition has gotten better while BMW has not, tells me how much you actually understand the points I am trying to make...

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by drF80

It is becoming much clearer why BMW has taken this direction reading the lines from "smart" new owners...
Calling someone (whos driven a BMW before you knew how to spell it) a "troll" because pointing out that competition has gotten better while BMW has not, tells me how much you actually understand the points I am trying to make...

This is really common on all car message boards. I also have a Volvo In the household and got ran off the Swedespeed forum for offering constructive criticism of the new line up and where the brand is headed.

I’ll admit-I’m guilty of it too sometimes. We all can get emotional after making such an expensive purchase but have to remember that it’s just a car/brand among many. I wanted to like the G20 so badly I had convinced myself it was perfect before I even drove it. It wasn’t until 5,000 miles in I can see the car has its flaws. But it’s still a great all around car. I no longer care about comparing it to the old BMW’s of lore bc those days are over.

And Competition is good. I’m glad cars like the Giulia are out there that force BMW to innovate and create a better product line that fits their new modern mold. I also firmly believe BMW listens to constructive criticism from their loyal customers. Otherwise they had no need to improve the handling/steering of the 3 series at all considering how well the F30 sold.

So in conclusion, let’s not take anything too personally. I enjoy reading all perspectives (good and bad) of The G20 and BMW in general.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by drF80

It is becoming much clearer why BMW has taken this direction reading the lines from "smart" new owners...
Calling someone (whos driven a BMW before you knew how to spell it) a "troll" because pointing out that competition has gotten better while BMW has not, tells me how much you actually understand the points I am trying to make...

You state that the competition has "gotten better while bmw has not", as if this is a fact beyond debate. It's simply your opinion and nothing more.

We understand the points you've been trying to make, it's just that they're poorly constructed points.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Fuller

You state that the competition has "gotten better while bmw has not", as if this is a fact beyond debate. It's simply your opinion and nothing more.

We understand the points you've been trying to make, it's just that they're poorly constructed points.

Sadly, it is not "simply my opinion and nothing more" since many (expert) reviews put F30 and G20 behind the competition over and over.

I chose the F80 for a few simple reasons - the M3 dream, the best leasing rates in industry, the completely different driving experience from the F30 (non-M BMW). And it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, but I am sad that I have not many chances to push it the way it is intended to be driven.

As my lease is approaching the end, I test drove the G20 and realized that is NOT going to be my next car since the 340 payment would be very close to the F80 and the cars are miles apart...

[EXE46]

That is perfectly fine, the G20 is not for you. Even the F80 which you claim is the last real BMW has its own negatives. There's no point in marching in denouncing the car that other people chose. Then proceed to show off your superiority by telling us how you own the last real BMW and how your friends who switch from BMW to the competition found it much better. Somehow, that's suppose to mean something to us. What data do you have, does your friends account for a third of the 3 series sales? Maybe then we could see what impact that has. Even when the 3'er was supposedly C+D favorite, there were many who didn't think it was great. The 911, as good it is, have characteristics that some may criticize. Look at the Savagegeese review, he didn't care too much for your F80 nor the 911 he reviewed.

Forget what reviewers say, most have their own biases and agenda. I test drove the Genesis 3.3T and didn't walk away ecstatic as some of those so-called reviewers would have you believe. I was very curious to see what the hype was about. In-fact, it was the first car I test drove as a possible replacement back in May. Was it garbage? no, was the 330i M sport better to me? hell yes and back then I didn't even test drove the M340i. I chose it with only having test driven the 330i M Sport. Look at the Throttle house review, those guys claim the M340i is just a faster 330i and praised the C43, mostly due to the gear shifts and the exhaust. Watching that review one would have little interest to bother test driving the M340i. They fail to mention the BMW strengths, and didn't mention which was faster. Now we all know the M340i kills that C43 in acceleration, has better steering etc but you wouldn't know that from watching the Throttle House review.

Here in this forum we have former F80 drivers who are happy with the M340i. Whose to say, it's not a good car because you along with some random person on YouTube thinks the Giulia et al is better. You're just one person and your opinion does not invalidate an entire sub fora of actual owners. These threads are pointless. If we go over the F80 forum sub-forum telling actual owners that the Quadrifoglio is a better car than theirs. What sort of reception do you think we would get? Yet you continuously do that here.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by drF80

Sadly, it is not "simply my opinion and nothing more" since many (expert) reviews put F30 and G20 behind the competition over and over.

I chose the F80 for a few simple reasons - the M3 dream, the best leasing rates in industry, the completely different driving experience from the F30 (non-M BMW). And it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, but I am sad that I have not many chances to push it the way it is intended to be driven.

As my lease is approaching the end, I test drove the G20 and realized that is NOT going to be my next car since the 340 payment would be very close to the F80 and the cars are miles apart...

Fair enough, you make a good point about the cost difference between the f80 and g20 m340i. They are different cars for different people, but I see your point.

As for the expert reviews on the g20, I've seen many positive reviews on the g20. Even car and driver seems to be warming up to the g20 as of late. The g20 seems to be substantially improved over the f30. Who else in the segment do you think has a better alternative to the g20 3 series? Some might say the Giulia is sportier, MB is more luxurious, Audi has a better awd system, the g70 is more affordable, etc, but all of those makes have their own caveats. The g20 matches or surpasses the competition in most areas, and doesn't come with as many compromises as the f30 did.

Maybe the steering feel is still a bit off, but every electric power steering system I've experienced has felt off or artificial in some way. Eps is here to stay so we'd might as well just get used to it.

[3ismagic#]

I've owned both of these cars. A few thoughts:

1. The Giulia is an excellent drivers car. Great steering, driving dynamics, great power train. The car is as it feels, fast. And just a heck of a fun car to drive

2. My Giulia was very reliable. I never had a single mechanical issue.

3. What let's the Giulia down is the interior and tech. The quality and materials are ok and the design is solid but little things let it down. The hvac controls are annoying. You turn the temperature knob and it wakes up the system then you have to turn it AGAIN to actually change the temperature. The infotainment system is way behind idrive. The standard seats are poorly bolstered. The seat belt retractor mechanism is SH!te. Never retracted correctly.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by drF80

Sadly, it is not "simply my opinion and nothing more" since many (expert) reviews put F30 and G20 behind the competition over and over.

I chose the F80 for a few simple reasons - the M3 dream, the best leasing rates in industry, the completely different driving experience from the F30 (non-M BMW). And it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, but I am sad that I have not many chances to push it the way it is intended to be driven.

As my lease is approaching the end, I test drove the G20 and realized that is NOT going to be my next car since the 340 payment would be very close to the F80 and the cars are miles apart...

The F30 was definitely a bad mark on BMW's 3 series reputation, as evidenced by many reviews, and iconically by the fact it fell off C&D's top 10 list (first 3 series to ever fall off that list). Unlike the F30, I don't agree that the G20 has been rated behind the competition of the class it sits in, and is viewed as the 3 series comeback kid. As someone who has owned both chassis (I had 2 F30's), I agree with the consensus of these reviews.

It's good you chose the car that fit your wants and needs. But with respect to your comparison of your F80 M3 vs G20 M340, there are a few of things taken out of context:

• While the M3 is surely a full M car, performance wise the M340 is neck and neck with it. 0-60 times are the same, and the M340 falls short in the quarter mile by under a tenth of a second (while having xDrive). It's no slouch around the track either.
• While your lease payment for the M3 may have been comparable to the M340, you leased a car that was ending production, while the M340 was just going on sale. I'd be surprised if your M3 lease payment is at or below the $600 mark, which is what most are leasing a fairly loaded M340 for.

I wouldn't say the M3 is "miles apart" (implying it's better) from the M340, but rather they accomplish a similar goal (potentially similar lease price range, virtually same performance) while providing a different driving experience (inferior technology and more raw feel vs. updated technology and more of a daily driver).

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Pauleebe

The F30 was definitely a bad mark on BMW's 3 series reputation, as evidenced by many reviews, and iconically by the fact it fell off C&D's top 10 list (first 3 series to ever fall off that list). Unlike the F30, I don't agree that the G20 has been rated behind the competition of the class it sits in, and is viewed as the 3 series comeback kid. As someone who has owned both chassis (I had 2 F30's), I agree with the consensus of these reviews.

It's good you chose the car that fit your wants and needs. But with respect to your comparison of your F80 M3 vs G20 M340, there are a few of things taken out of context:

• While the M3 is surely a full M car, performance wise the M340 is neck and neck with it. 0-60 times are the same, and the M340 falls short in the quarter mile by under a tenth of a second (while having xDrive). It's no slouch around the track either.
• While your lease payment for the M3 may have been comparable to the M340, you leased a car that was ending production, while the M340 was just going on sale. I'd be surprised if your M3 lease payment is at or below the $600 mark, which is what most are leasing a fairly loaded M340 for.

I wouldn't say the M3 is "miles apart" (implying it's better) from the M340, but rather they accomplish a similar goal (potentially similar lease price range, virtually same performance) while providing a different driving experience (inferior technology and more raw feel vs. updated technology and more of a daily driver).

I love when so called "Enthusiast" claims the cars are very similar because their 0-60 and 1/4 mile numbers are close...
FYI, I have seen tuned Golfs beat F80 0-60 times....

However, the cars are completely different and yes, miles apart, from suspension, transmission, brakes, LSD, balance, steering, materials used and weight... Way more than the engine output and 0-60 times.

If you can get fairly loaded 2020 M340 XI with leather, premium and exec package, MSRP of $62k with 4k discount let's say so $58k car for under 600/month, you should go into banking business... That is theoretically impossible assuming 0% interest rate and 60% residual...

In Fact, let me add:
the comparable equipped M340xi MSRP is $63,000 + destination fee, taxes and fees.
if you got 5% off in MA, 2% above the invoice, no down payment, 60% residual, 0.00177 MF, your payment is over $750 + taxes = >$800/month.
Very close to my F80 payment for the car that aside 0-60 and 1/4 mile and all the techy stuff is nowhere close to F80 IMO.

I doubt BMW is giving below invoice on the 2020 models with such "stellar" reviews?

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by drF80

Sadly, it is not "simply my opinion and nothing more" since many (expert) reviews put F30 and G20 behind the competition over and over.

I chose the F80 for a few simple reasons - the M3 dream, the best leasing rates in industry, the completely different driving experience from the F30 (non-M BMW). And it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, but I am sad that I have not many chances to push it the way it is intended to be driven.

As my lease is approaching the end, I test drove the G20 and realized that is NOT going to be my next car since the 340 payment would be very close to the F80 and the cars are miles apart...

I had an F82 in the past, and I did test drive M340i.
I'd take M340i over F80 any day.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by drF80

I love when so called "Enthusiast" claims the cars are very similar because their 0-60 and 1/4 mile numbers are close...
FYI, I have seen tuned Golfs beat F80 0-60 times....

However, the cars are completely different and yes, miles apart, from suspension, transmission, brakes, LSD, balance, steering, materials used and weight... Way more than the engine output and 0-60 times.

If you can get fairly loaded 2020 M340 XI with leather, premium and exec package, MSRP of $62k with 4k discount let's say so $58k car for under 600/month, you should go into banking business... That is theoretically impossible assuming 0% interest rate and 60% residual...

In Fact, let me add:
the comparable equipped M340xi MSRP is $63,000 + destination fee, taxes and fees.
if you got 5% off in MA, 2% above the invoice, no down payment, 60% residual, 0.00177 MF, your payment is over $750 + taxes = >$800/month.
Very close to my F80 payment for the car that aside 0-60 and 1/4 mile and all the techy stuff is nowhere close to F80 IMO.

I doubt BMW is giving below invoice on the 2020 models with such "stellar" reviews?

Not arguing about the differences in the F80 vs. the M340, because frankly, I agree with you they're different beasts.

My comment has to do with your lease numbers that you're quoting. Quite a few people (myself included) are getting or have gotten 10%+ off in addition to incentives. My payment on my $69k M340i (which I leased last October) with 12k miles/yr is $658.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Not arguing about the differences in the F80 vs. the M340, because frankly, I agree with you they're different beasts.

My comment has to do with your lease numbers that you're quoting. Quite a few people (myself included) are getting or have gotten 10%+ off in addition to incentives. My payment on my $69k M340i (which I leased last October) with 12k miles/yr is $658.

"Quite a few people" got 10% off + incentives on the brand new, just released G20, which is >3% under the invoice pricing. That tells me two things: BMW is desperate for sales and that they do not believe in G20. Ah, and the third -- it is overpriced.

I don't think "quite a few" people are getting those deals...yet.

Also, $69k for a 340 is a way overpriced...

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by drF80

I love when so called "Enthusiast" claims the cars are very similar because their 0-60 and 1/4 mile numbers are close...
FYI, I have seen tuned Golfs beat F80 0-60 times....

However, the cars are completely different and yes, miles apart, from suspension, transmission, brakes, LSD, balance, steering, materials used and weight... Way more than the engine output and 0-60 times.

If you can get fairly loaded 2020 M340 XI with leather, premium and exec package, MSRP of $62k with 4k discount let's say so $58k car for under 600/month, you should go into banking business... That is theoretically impossible assuming 0% interest rate and 60% residual...

In Fact, let me add:
the comparable equipped M340xi MSRP is $63,000 + destination fee, taxes and fees.
if you got 5% off in MA, 2% above the invoice, no down payment, 60% residual, 0.00177 MF, your payment is over $750 + taxes = >$800/month.
Very close to my F80 payment for the car that aside 0-60 and 1/4 mile and all the techy stuff is nowhere close to F80 IMO.

I doubt BMW is giving below invoice on the 2020 models with such "stellar" reviews?

I never claimed to be an "enthusiast". I love the brand and my car, but day-to-day I'm just a regular owner.

My claim regarding times was aimed at the user who was trying to make the M340 seem like a slouch compared to the F80, which it's not. I agree 0-60 or 1/4 mile times aren't everything, but there is a reason journalists test and report on them. Likewise, most owners aren't tracking their car weekly (if ever), and the value proposition is that if they can get virtually F80 performance in a daily driver package for the same price or less than the F80, then that's a great buy. An M340 owner knows they aren't buying a true track car, but that doesn't mean it can't run with the F80 M3 too.

Not arguing with you on lease pricing. As others have said, many are getting $600/mo leases for an MSRP of ~62-64K or $650/mo leases for ~64-68K. My lease is 62.5K for just under $600/mo. Folks aren't lying about lease figures, and if you use a lease calculator and the published rates, you can back into the payment they're claiming.

Originally Posted by drF80

"Quite a few people" got 10% off + incentives on the brand new, just released G20, which is >3% under the invoice pricing. That tells me two things: BMW is desperate for sales and that they do not believe in G20. Ah, and the third -- it is overpriced.

I don't think "quite a few" people are getting those deals...yet.

Also, $69k for a 340 is a way overpriced...

Folks were getting 10%+ the G20 since it started production. Just browse the forums. 10% off is the golden standard where repeat BMW customers with relationships (not even always a requirement) with dealers can start negotiating. It's been this way for my past 3 leases since I started in 2013.

You're naive for thinking BMW is making no profit if they go below MSRP or invoice, but that's what they want you to believe so you stop negotiating downwards.

My dealer isn't a close friend but I have a relationship with him nonetheless, and he did say BMW is permitting for more discounts on sedans vs light trucks due to light trucks being more popular in the US lately and sedans being harder to move. Do with that information what you will, but that's not specific to BMW but rather the entire industry.

Lastly, since the M340 runs with the F80, is it really all that crazy that the MSRP can creep up to M territory? You're also speaking as if the G80 will be priced similarly to the F80. I think you're in for a rude awakening.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by drF80

"Quite a few people" got 10% off + incentives on the brand new, just released G20, which is >3% under the invoice pricing. That tells me two things: BMW is desperate for sales and that they do not believe in G20. Ah, and the third -- it is overpriced.

I don't think "quite a few" people are getting those deals...yet.

Also, $69k for a 340 is a way overpriced...

Overpriced would indicate that it's above and beyond the pricing of its direct competitor, which it is not. The C43 is actually slightly more expensive despite only being a refreshed last generation model.

Also, discounting a car by 10% has nothing to do with BMW and their "desperation"; it's coming out of the dealer's pocket. If you simply go into a dealership and ask for 10% off, chances are they wouldn't agree. It takes some effort to get there.

Manufacturer incentives are what come from BMW, and again they are in line with what Mercedes is offering on the C43.

Sedan sales in general are on the decline which makes them ripe for great deals. That has nothing to do with whether or not BMW believes in the G20 specifically.

$69k (for a fully loaded M340i) was the MSRP, not what I paid. What I paid was that less 10% and $3k in incentives ($2k loyalty, $1k lease cash). This manifests itself into the $658 monthly payment, which by your logic means I should be in the "banking business", whatever that means.