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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions Road & Track Review - The 2020 BMW M340i Brings Back Some of the Old Magic

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      07-19-2020, 02:28 PM   #155
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I wasn't comparing an M340 RWD to an Altima since I ended up with it through no deliberate intent of my own. My point was to share how ludicrous it is to say the M340i is like a buick. We get it, the G20 is large, I know that and it did bother me initially a little since I don't like large cars.

This is the largest car I have owned but the size is not enough where I feel negatively about the car. There are many choices, the bargain basement Genesis , Lexus 3IS and Alfa etc are all smaller. Therefore, nobody is being coerced to buy the G20 and be miserable with its size.

Another thing that many fail to realize is that there are many factors that define the driving characteristics of a car besides just size, slalom or steering feel. Transmission, suspension etc play far more vital roles. Many of the cars in this category fail in those aspects. For example, some may have a slightly better steering feel but that is negated by an inferior transmission to the G20, cue the Genesis 3.3T. Even some cars that utilizes the ZF feels nowhere as good as that of the G20, simply due to the tuning.

Look, no car is perfect, they all come with compromises, (FWD hot hatches/saloons are not the answer). All one can do is pick what's best for his/her needs. I chose the M340i because of all it's direct competitors, it's the best all-rounder period IMHO.
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      07-19-2020, 03:57 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXE46 View Post
I wasn't comparing an M340 RWD to an Altima since I ended up with it through no deliberate intent of my own. My point was to share how ludicrous it is to say the M340i is like a buick. We get it, the G20 is large, I know that and it did bother me initially a little since I don't like large cars.

This is the largest car I have owned but the size is not enough where I feel negatively about the car. There are many choices, the bargain basement Genesis , Lexus 3IS and Alfa etc are all smaller. Therefore, nobody is being coerced to buy the G20 and be miserable with its size.

Another thing that many fail to realize is that there are many factors that define the driving characteristics of a car besides just size, slalom or steering feel. Transmission, suspension etc play far more vital roles. Many of the cars in this category fail in those aspects. For example, some may have a slightly better steering feel but that is negated by an inferior transmission to the G20, cue the Genesis 3.3T. Even some cars that utilizes the ZF feels nowhere as good as that of the G20, simply due to the tuning.

Look, no car is perfect, they all come with compromises, (FWD hot hatches/saloons are not the answer). All one can do is pick what's best for his/her needs. I chose the M340i because of all it's direct competitors, it's the best all-rounder period IMHO.
Yeah i agree with you. Lot of fair & valid criticism to go around when critiquing the G20 but calling it a Buick is just being extra for the sake of hyperbole. If anything that title goes to the G30 5 series. (which does in fact drive like a Buick) Apologies to my 5 series owners

G20 is the largest car i've driven too but oddly enough-it's fairly agile for its size. I've gotten used to the size so i'm willing to let that go now.

For me, personally, steering reigns supreme (it's the one piece of hardware connecting you to the vehicle that you use literally every second you are in the vehicle driving) and i don't know why BMW neglects it while over engineering everything else to decimate the competition. I'm not just talking about "feel" here either. Obv. it's super numb, but the wheel is too big and fat, the ratio is too slow, and the EPS doesn't feel very linear to me, the inputs seem *too* variable to be consistent. It feels unnatural. Of course this is subjective and many others may have total opposite views here.

I think the larger point is that while there is no perfect car, almost every car out there has vastly improved over the years. G20 is still the best all round luxury sports sedan but the gap has significantly narrowed. There are other cars out there that are better than the G20 in certain aspects, and that's OKAY. Was the drive train and chassis that much better than every other car I test drove for me to overlook the steering/size when i leased it last year? Probably. Will it be enough in 2022? Maybe, maybe not.
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      07-20-2020, 08:00 AM   #157
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Here is an interesting article regarding BMW steering

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

My favorite line - per BMW
“There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road.”

and heck, what do we know, BMW's sales have risen while they ran away from their slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
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      07-20-2020, 10:45 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

My favorite line - per BMW
"There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road."

and heck, what do we know, BMW's sales have risen while they ran away from their slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
This makes sense for the cookie cutter 330i's and X3's but on the M cars its inexcusable, Mazda's have better steering. I don't understand either why they don't just give the enthusiast a sport mode setting that would literally just shut all of us up and then have comfort for the general public.
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      07-20-2020, 11:22 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
This makes sense for the cookie cutter 330i's and X3's but on the M cars its inexcusable, Mazda's have better steering. I don't understand either why they don't just give the enthusiast a sport mode setting that would literally just shut all of us up and then have comfort for the general public.
I'm renting a Dodge Caravan right now and I kid you not, the steering has better "feel" (to me) than my M3.
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      07-20-2020, 11:24 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
This makes sense for the cookie cutter 330i's and X3's but on the M cars its inexcusable, Mazda's have better steering. I don't understand either why they don't just give the enthusiast a sport mode setting that would literally just shut all of us up and then have comfort for the general public.
I'm renting a Dodge Caravan right now and I kid you not, the steering has better "feel" (to me) than my M3.
The worst part is that this doesn't shock me! My CLS a car from a brand that people associate with the senior crowd has more steering feel than my F87 or G30, even my daughter-in-law's CX-9 has better feel!

If someone in the 90's/00's heard that a Mazda or Merc has better steering feel than a BMW they would have never believed you. Strange times we live in!
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      07-20-2020, 12:01 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
This makes sense for the cookie cutter 330i's and X3's but on the M cars its inexcusable, Mazda's have better steering. I don't understand either why they don't just give the enthusiast a sport mode setting that would literally just shut all of us up and then have comfort for the general public.

Def inexcusable for an M car but it doesn't even make sense for a cookier cutter 330i. Even a cookie cutter 330i is supposed to be the "ultimate driving machine"

Not the ultimate all around commuting machine. If i wanted that i could have gotten into a Mazda 3 premium for half the price and had a great driving experience with a gorgeous interior in a nice sized package.

A sport sedan is supposed to be a cut above the competition even in base form. And to be fair- it def is when it comes to drive train and chassis.

But then where it counts, BMW sales& marketing dept steps in to kill the steering, attach garbage tires for ride comfort and fuel efficiency and handicap the vehicle to make it more marketable.
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      07-20-2020, 12:08 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
I'm renting a Dodge Caravan right now and I kid you not, the steering has better "feel" (to me) than my M3.

Many people on here are going to be deeply offended and scoff at you for even writing that but to that i say - go out and test drive multiple cars and then come back and reasonably tell me why and how the g20 steering stands out.

I had a Jaguar F pace rental for a week in Arizona and i was absolutely blown away by that steering. The feel, the directness, the weighting, ultra quick response to inputs was amazing. 4000 lb SUV but the steering allowed me react and miss a pot hole that was 10 feet in front of me.

Of course, it was far from perfect in other aspects but i'm only talking about steering here. The G20 steering feels lazy. I try to miss a pot hole and i feel a tiny lag before the wheels respond. Am i being crazy here??
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      07-20-2020, 04:54 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Makes me that much more excited for mine to arrive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Makes me that much more excited for mine to arrive.
Same!!! I get mine Thursday!!!
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      07-20-2020, 04:55 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfairfax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Makes me that much more excited for mine to arrive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Makes me that much more excited for mine to arrive.
Same!!! I get mine Thursday!!!
Ugh, so jealous. Mine hasn't even entered production yet. Been in "scheduled for production" for about a week now, if not longer. 😕
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      07-20-2020, 05:24 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
Many people on here are going to be deeply offended and scoff at you for even writing that but to that i say - go out and test drive multiple cars and then come back and reasonably tell me why and how the g20 steering stands out.

I had a Jaguar F pace rental for a week in Arizona and i was absolutely blown away by that steering. The feel, the directness, the weighting, ultra quick response to inputs was amazing. 4000 lb SUV but the steering allowed me react and miss a pot hole that was 10 feet in front of me.

Of course, it was far from perfect in other aspects but i'm only talking about steering here. The G20 steering feels lazy. I try to miss a pot hole and i feel a tiny lag before the wheels respond. Am i being crazy here??
You should try the XE-R Sport, I've stated on many occasions something like a Focus ST has exceptional handling that shifts your centre of gravity inducing G-Force based grins. There are some great handling cars out there. But.!

I've tracked a few bimmers (F30's / F82) and if the chassis / steering / brakes and engine wasn't up to the task of throwing me into a corner at 80+ mph then I'd either be dead or considering another car.

That's where my opinion disconnects from others, a decent petrol RWD bimmer on m-sport suspension is well balanced and very competent in the handling department.

I bet at track speeds that dual wishbone setup will dazzle and somewhat increase lap times but the transmission / engine of something like a 340i makes a somewhat small advantage superfluous.

The main issue with BMW handling IMO is feeling, as in there is none. That doesn't make it any way less capable but it's not as fun to drive, if one seeks driving dynamics then the badge simply doesn't matter.

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      07-20-2020, 06:58 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfairfax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Makes me that much more excited for mine to arrive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforty6_m3 View Post
Makes me that much more excited for mine to arrive.
Same!!! I get mine Thursday!!!
Ugh, so jealous. Mine hasn't even entered production yet. Been in "scheduled for production" for about a week now, if not longer. 😕


Nuts...... that sucks!
I ended up switching to an "in stock awaiting delivery" - albeit had to get my dealer to get it from a competing dealer...... and has a couple options I wasn't after..... but not gonna complain
The new build I had ordered had no movement for 6weeks, then I found out they won't really be building anymore this year (for delivery to the UK) so my original order wouldn't be fulfilled until January or late Q1. No way was I going to wait that long (and rent a bloody car - had already traded in my GTi)

Hope you get yours soon!
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      07-27-2020, 03:47 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
How do you know? Just trolling right? If you do an A/B test between M340i and M4, I'm pretty sure most would pick M340i. You know, the better car.
Not trolling, that's just a very lofty statement to make regarding the M340. Good car, but you make it sound like it will be one of the all time great BMWs up there with the likes of the E46, E92, E39.

We can agree to disagree, this is all subjective after all. But I doubt many enthusiasts would pick an M340 over the F82 M4.
I sure as hell wouldn't take a M340 over an M4.
So am I no longer an enthusiast because I traded in my M3 for a m340i? That's a lot of pressure on a M3 owner that may want a m340i. I don't think the car you own, or don't own, qualifies you as an enthusiast, or not.

For me, I got the m340i because I was tired of the harsh ride of the M3; it's not an easy car to live with on a daily basis. Yes, it's a great looking car, plenty fast and good handling. However, that's not every aspect of a car. I wasn't crazy about getting into a "regular" 3 series from a M car. But, the first time I sat in the m340i, I felt the age of the f80 interior. Then, when I drove the m340i, the harshness was gone - of course. It felt quick, but not brutally fast like the M3.

Fast forward to 9 months later, after having replaced the OEM springs, changed the wheels and awful RF tires, it really is a great car. Honestly, it's plenty fast - almost as fast as the M3. Great interior- except for the digital dash (I don't understand the point of it, if you can't customize it). I feel the interior is better quality, as well. Again, the harsh ride isn't there, and it's quiet but not too quiet.

Is one better than the other, in whole? I don't know...that's for each owner to decide. For me, I loved the M3 and I love the m340i. I don't regret trading in my M3. Of course, I miss some parts of it, but I miss some parts of the last 10 BMW's I've owned. Each one was special in it's own way. That's why we're all enthusiasts, here.
This is exactly my thought process. Was thinking about getting a E46 or a E92 M3.. but eventually opted for a F30 335i since I knew I would do more "commute" driving vs spirited driving and the hardness of the M cars would drive me nuts! Happy I did and got the new tech, at the time. I still find myself wanting to get a E46 M3 or a Z4M for the M and sportiness but I think I would never truly pull the trigger on that.

Glad to see the review was positive! I think they really hit a good spot with the practicality and the sportiness of the M340i.
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      07-29-2020, 12:26 AM   #168
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To me, “enthusiast” is a fairly broad and flexible term that varies with one’s means to indulge their interest.

Some enthusiasts might have more money to buy a collection of every M car ever built than time to research the name of the engineer that designed a linkage that only lasted for one generation.

Other enthusiasts might draw immense satisfaction from that process, learning the history and witnessing each iteration, taking pleasure in honing their eyes to spot subtle but telltale differences.

Yet more people might only be able to show their appreciation from afar, lusting after a car they cannot have due to means or availability, but still loving the beauty and sound every time they see one.

Trying to define whether someone is or isn’t a “true” enthusiast is merely gate keeping for petty and menial reasons. I’d like to think we’re better than that here.
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      07-29-2020, 11:15 AM   #169
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For those who've observed the relatively good (and perhaps superior) steering feel from other manufacturers -- Mazda and FCA among them -- let me throw out this theory.

Under hydraulic systems, BMW had mastered the best feel and feedback among steering systems. Some might argue with that, but probably not many on this forum. Now, going to electric boost systems, the playing field was reset and every manufacturer had to start from scratch. Unfortunately, BMW did not get off to a good start with the F30/F32.

I'm in the market for a new G20 and, after having the test drive, I can understand why the sentiments about poor steering feedback are what they are. But let me say this -- BMW is improving, and it's not far off of the best systems. FCA has one of the best ones from my experience. I can't comment on Mazda since I haven't driven one. But the pecking order of good steering systems has been completely mixed up, and BMW has work to do. After recently having driven a Genesis and Audi, I can tell you that BMW is now better than both of those, IMO.

Be patient. BMW will get better, but it's not bad now.
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      07-29-2020, 11:51 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCarSmell View Post
For those who've observed the relatively good (and perhaps superior) steering feel from other manufacturers -- Mazda and FCA among them -- let me throw out this theory.

Under hydraulic systems, BMW had mastered the best feel and feedback among steering systems. Some might argue with that, but probably not many on this forum. Now, going to electric boost systems, the playing field was reset and every manufacturer had to start from scratch. Unfortunately, BMW did not get off to a good start with the F30/F32.

I'm in the market for a new G20 and, after having the test drive, I can understand why the sentiments about poor steering feedback are what they are. But let me say this -- BMW is improving, and it's not far off of the best systems. FCA has one of the best ones from my experience. I can't comment on Mazda since I haven't driven one. But the pecking order of good steering systems has been completely mixed up, and BMW has work to do. After recently having driven a Genesis and Audi, I can tell you that BMW is now better than both of those, IMO.

Be patient. BMW will get better, but it's not bad now.
I agree with you-BMW was absolutely dominating but the field was reset after electric steering arrived on the scene. BMW however got way left behind initially and is slowly catching up but still no where near the top of the pack or even close.

Unfortunately, as someone else commented, "feel" is probably gone for good as it is not easily transferable through an electric system, if at all.

IMHO, for an electric steering system to feel "good" in modern cars-it has to be a couple of things now: A) naturally linear B) well weighted C) direct + precise D) have a quick ratio.

BMW is hell bent on using super slow ratios which worked well with hydraulic setups but don't translate well at all when used in an electric boosted setup. Let me give you an example of a video i took while driving:

https://streamable.com/ocwa4n


Nobody on this forum can tell me with a straight face that this is fine steering behavior...it is absolutely unacceptable in a sports sedan. Nobody should be offended by calling out the steering, no matter how improved the G20 is.

Too slow, too lazy-if i wanted to avoid a pothole right in front of me, i should be able to do with a flick of the wrist in a "sports sedan". It would be impossible with this zombie steering. BMW has ways to go. My rental Chevy cruze was more responsive than this.
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      07-30-2020, 01:18 PM   #171
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Quote:
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I agree with you-BMW was absolutely dominating but the field was reset after electric steering arrived on the scene. BMW however got way left behind initially and is slowly catching up but still no where near the top of the pack or even close.

Unfortunately, as someone else commented, "feel" is probably gone for good as it is not easily transferable through an electric system, if at all.

IMHO, for an electric steering system to feel "good" in modern cars-it has to be a couple of things now: A) naturally linear B) well weighted C) direct + precise D) have a quick ratio.

BMW is hell bent on using super slow ratios which worked well with hydraulic setups but don't translate well at all when used in an electric boosted setup. Let me give you an example of a video i took while driving:

https://streamable.com/ocwa4n


Nobody on this forum can tell me with a straight face that this is fine steering behavior...it is absolutely unacceptable in a sports sedan. Nobody should be offended by calling out the steering, no matter how improved the G20 is.

Too slow, too lazy-if i wanted to avoid a pothole right in front of me, i should be able to do with a flick of the wrist in a "sports sedan". It would be impossible with this zombie steering. BMW has ways to go. My rental Chevy cruze was more responsive than this.
What steering mode are you in? I could maybe see a little of that being attributed to comfort as opposed to sport+...
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      07-30-2020, 01:24 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
I agree with you-BMW was absolutely dominating but the field was reset after electric steering arrived on the scene. BMW however got way left behind initially and is slowly catching up but still no where near the top of the pack or even close.

Unfortunately, as someone else commented, "feel" is probably gone for good as it is not easily transferable through an electric system, if at all.

IMHO, for an electric steering system to feel "good" in modern cars-it has to be a couple of things now: A) naturally linear B) well weighted C) direct + precise D) have a quick ratio.

BMW is hell bent on using super slow ratios which worked well with hydraulic setups but don't translate well at all when used in an electric boosted setup. Let me give you an example of a video i took while driving:

https://streamable.com/ocwa4n


Nobody on this forum can tell me with a straight face that this is fine steering behavior...it is absolutely unacceptable in a sports sedan. Nobody should be offended by calling out the steering, no matter how improved the G20 is.

Too slow, too lazy-if i wanted to avoid a pothole right in front of me, i should be able to do with a flick of the wrist in a "sports sedan". It would be impossible with this zombie steering. BMW has ways to go. My rental Chevy cruze was more responsive than this.
I think steering tuning should fix that if BMW wanted to. I don’t think electric setup in M cars behave this way.
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      07-30-2020, 02:22 PM   #173
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCarSmell View Post
For those who've observed the relatively good (and perhaps superior) steering feel from other manufacturers -- Mazda and FCA among them -- let me throw out this theory.

Under hydraulic systems, BMW had mastered the best feel and feedback among steering systems. Some might argue with that, but probably not many on this forum. Now, going to electric boost systems, the playing field was reset and every manufacturer had to start from scratch. Unfortunately, BMW did not get off to a good start with the F30/F32.

I'm in the market for a new G20 and, after having the test drive, I can understand why the sentiments about poor steering feedback are what they are. But let me say this -- BMW is improving, and it's not far off of the best systems. FCA has one of the best ones from my experience. I can't comment on Mazda since I haven't driven one. But the pecking order of good steering systems has been completely mixed up, and BMW has work to do. After recently having driven a Genesis and Audi, I can tell you that BMW is now better than both of those, IMO.

Be patient. BMW will get better, but it's not bad now.
I agree with you-BMW was absolutely dominating but the field was reset after electric steering arrived on the scene. BMW however got way left behind initially and is slowly catching up but still no where near the top of the pack or even close.

Unfortunately, as someone else commented, "feel" is probably gone for good as it is not easily transferable through an electric system, if at all.

IMHO, for an electric steering system to feel "good" in modern cars-it has to be a couple of things now: A) naturally linear B) well weighted C) direct + precise D) have a quick ratio.

BMW is hell bent on using super slow ratios which worked well with hydraulic setups but don't translate well at all when used in an electric boosted setup. Let me give you an example of a video i took while driving:

https://streamable.com/ocwa4n


Nobody on this forum can tell me with a straight face that this is fine steering behavior...it is absolutely unacceptable in a sports sedan. Nobody should be offended by calling out the steering, no matter how improved the G20 is.

Too slow, too lazy-if i wanted to avoid a pothole right in front of me, i should be able to do with a flick of the wrist in a "sports sedan". It would be impossible with this zombie steering. BMW has ways to go. My rental Chevy cruze was more responsive than this.
Very valid points.

This video appears to be a base 330 tho. I'm guessing the M340 will be slightly tighter and the new M3 will be even quicker ratios given the natural progression of these cars. But yes steering could absolutely be better and I think most would agree w that
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      07-30-2020, 02:31 PM   #174
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What steering mode are you in? I could maybe see a little of that being attributed to comfort as opposed to sport+...
To be honest- sport is even worse. It's artificially heavy and then super slow on top of it. If i tried that in sport the car would wobble.
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      07-30-2020, 02:37 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
I agree with you-BMW was absolutely dominating but the field was reset after electric steering arrived on the scene. BMW however got way left behind initially and is slowly catching up but still no where near the top of the pack or even close.

Unfortunately, as someone else commented, "feel" is probably gone for good as it is not easily transferable through an electric system, if at all.

IMHO, for an electric steering system to feel "good" in modern cars-it has to be a couple of things now: A) naturally linear B) well weighted C) direct + precise D) have a quick ratio.

BMW is hell bent on using super slow ratios which worked well with hydraulic setups but don't translate well at all when used in an electric boosted setup. Let me give you an example of a video i took while driving:

https://streamable.com/ocwa4n


Nobody on this forum can tell me with a straight face that this is fine steering behavior...it is absolutely unacceptable in a sports sedan. Nobody should be offended by calling out the steering, no matter how improved the G20 is.

Too slow, too lazy-if i wanted to avoid a pothole right in front of me, i should be able to do with a flick of the wrist in a "sports sedan". It would be impossible with this zombie steering. BMW has ways to go. My rental Chevy cruze was more responsive than this.
I think steering tuning should fix that if BMW wanted to. I don’t think electric setup in M cars behave this way.
The ratio's in M cars (at least the M2) aren't horrible, but BMW has this idea stuck in their heads that sporty = heavier. Usually in M cars I find comfort to be the most "natural" setting, sport and sport + just add synthetic weight which may add to the idea behind the ratio being slow, as its associated with more effort. Overall, BMW steering in general (M or non-M) needs to improve.
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      07-30-2020, 02:41 PM   #176
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Very valid points.

This video appears to be a base 330 tho. I'm guessing the M340 will be slightly tighter and the new M3 will be even quicker ratios given the natural progression of these cars. But yes steering could absolutely be better and I think most would agree w that
Fair point- but the overall off center ratio in the 330i and 330i M sport is both 14.1:1, so i'd imagine they both behave somewhat similarly.

The 330xi steering is even slower at 15.1:1. It must be...interesting.

THat being said i do see the m340i gets a bit of a quicker set up at 13.6:1. Kind of curious from other 340i drivers how that feels? It's not night and day but its def a bit quicker. But then again the 340i also has the old F30 rack so i dont know. I'll have to test drive it.

Curious what they will do with the new M3/M4. I understand that BMW refuses to budge on the ratios to cater to the German market for the autobahn...however, 99% of the rest of the world barely makes it above 80mph in daily driving.
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