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      09-09-2019, 02:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Most BMW buyers don't know what they buy, in today's society the badge on a front of a car is what a good portion of people care about hence why cars like the CLA exist (there's also examples of it on this forum with how some of the members here view the Genesis G70 with no actual experience behind the wheel, they just see it as "HyundaiJunk").

It's a real conversation I've had with multiple BMW owners. Here's one of the few. When I was at the dealer looking at the M340i, someone came up to me and asked how much I paid for my CLS, he said it looks really good and expensive and that it would impress a bunch of people and even quote on quote "get bitches". While accepting the compliments I asked what he drove. He said a 740iL, to which I said thats a nice car. He told me, he doesn't like it simply because the S class looks more expensive and would look more impressive to his friends. I asked, well don't you like parts of your car, like the nice engine, the Inline 6 is really smooth and has a good amount of power. He then asked me what an inline 6 was. He said he just assumed he had some type of V8 under the hood because of the "40i" badge, and didn't even know that the "L" in the badging referred to long-wheelbase. This is one of many similar conversations, from people thinking their 335i has a 3.5L V6, to people not even knowing their cars have turbos in them, or people thinking that German cars are the most reliable.

These people couldn't care less about sports cars nor care about what engine their car actually has, in today's world, having the kidney grills, 4 rings, or 3 pointed star on the front of your car, is something to aspire to, and have to feel/look more impressive. Its like the people who buy 5 year old S-Classes with a shit ton of problems to look cool when instead they could just buy a new and reliable accord. The accord is the better car, but not the more impressive looking and cooler car.
When I was doing the paperwork for my M340i, I was chatting it up with the sales manager, and we began to get candid on a few topics... one thing he revealed to me is the majority of the BMW lessee's he writes up do not have good credit and can barely afford their purchase. Occasionally an old man will come along and pay cash for a loaded 7 series, but most folks are just trying to get their hands on that badge. Food for thought.
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      09-09-2019, 03:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
When I was doing the paperwork for my M340i, I was chatting it up with the sales manager, and we began to get candid on a few topics... one thing he revealed to me is the majority of the BMW lessee's he writes up do not have good credit and can barely afford their purchase. Occasionally an old man will come along and pay cash for a loaded 7 series, but most folks are just trying to get their hands on that badge. Food for thought.
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
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      09-09-2019, 03:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
Demographics vary for sure, but it is true that people do reach above their means much of the time. There's probably more crappy credit out there than there is good credit, and that's largely due to bad money management and over-extension.
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      09-09-2019, 03:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Demographics vary for sure, but it is true that people do reach above their means much of the time. There's probably more crappy credit out there than there is good credit, and that's largely due to bad money management and over-extension.
Agreed
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      09-09-2019, 03:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
That closely sums up my position also. And that's what started the whole conversation with the sales manager in the first place. Apparently my FICO is higher than what he usually sees and I could tell he was surprised... so I said, "Is is strange to see a score that high?" and this is when he started telling me about the average person who leases a car from his dealership. He tells me how poor to middling credit scores will get you hosed on a lease... gave me an example of a similar M340i he leased a few days prior for $200 more a month.

FYI, this dealership is located in the the silicone valley, where there is supposedly lots of wealth... but I stand by my general/observed opinion that most people spend their money just as fast as they can make it and don't have the financial intelligence and wherewithal to accumulate wealth.
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      09-09-2019, 03:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
That closely sums up my position also. And that's what started the whole conversation with the sales manager in the first place. Apparently my FICO is higher than what he usually sees and I could tell he was surprised... so I said, "Is is strange to see a score that high?" and this is when he started telling me about the average person who leases a car from his dealership. He tells me how poor to middling credit scores will get you hosed on a lease... gave me an example of a similar M340i he leased a few days prior for $200 more a month.

FYI, this dealership is located in the the silicone valley, where there is supposedly lots of wealth... but I stand by my general/observed opinion that most people spend their money just as fast as they can make it and don't have the financial intelligence and wherewithal to accumulate wealth.
Well, despite my credit, after seeing some of the lease deals others are getting on this site, I still feel like I got hosed on my lease because I was working with a s*** dealership and predatory sales representative/office. But I was in a hurry to get into a new vehicle and the M340 was the only vehicle I was considering. They just won't get my business next time around.
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      09-09-2019, 04:08 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
Well, despite my credit, after seeing some of the lease deals others are getting on this site, I still feel like I got hosed on my lease because I was working with a s*** dealership and predatory sales representative/office. But I was in a hurry to get into a new vehicle and the M340 was the only vehicle I was considering. They just won't get my business next time around.
Keep in mind that things vary from state to state. A good dealership is imperative though, so definitely don't give that dealership your business again.
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      09-09-2019, 04:14 PM   #30
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+1. Read this and thought to myself what a joke of a review. Extremely biased and totally subjective. Everything you mentioned on this post is exactly what I thought. They cant even do basic math lol.

Sounds like the writer of this article cannot afford himself a BMW... I mean who compares a Volvo to a BMW?
The review is generally positive. All it says is that it's not the MOST dynamic or the MOST luxurious. It says it's still a dynamic car, is a noticeable improvement over the F30, and the only thing about it is that it is not the leader in any one thing. That is almost objectively true. The G20 is beat out at least by Merc and Audi as far as interior goes. The Giulia is hands down a more sporty car. The G70 is by far a better value. The only thing that is a bit subjective is the interior, but very few people rate the BMW as having the better interior. Technology and interior quality is definitely better in the newer Audis. (And I hate Audis).

That still makes BMW one of the best complete packages, though. Sure Alfa is sportier, but who wants to drive that unreliable hunk of junk every day? Sure the Audi has a nice interior, but it's not fun to drive. The Mercedes is a good car but it has a different character from the BMW. The G70 is a great car but the BMW is better overall, you just have to pay more for it.

So why does everyone interpret this as a bad review? It's not. It's just indicative of how BMW is no longer the only sport sedan game in the industry. Others have caught up on the formula. As a consumer, that's a GOOD thing. That keeps BMW on its toes and keeps pricing competitive.
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      09-09-2019, 04:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
The review is generally positive. All it says is that it's not the MOST dynamic or the MOST luxurious. It says it's still a dynamic car, is a noticeable improvement over the F30, and the only thing about it is that it is not the leader in any one thing. That is almost objectively true. The G20 is beat out at least by Merc and Audi as far as interior goes. The Giulia is hands down a more sporty car. The G70 is by far a better value. The only thing that is a bit subjective is the interior, but very few people rate the BMW as having the better interior. Technology and interior quality is definitely better in the newer Audis. (And I hate Audis).

That still makes BMW one of the best complete packages, though. Sure Alfa is sportier, but who wants to drive that unreliable hunk of junk every day? Sure the Audi has a nice interior, but it's not fun to drive. The Mercedes is a good car but it has a different character from the BMW. The G70 is a great car but the BMW is better overall, you just have to pay more for it.

So why does everyone interpret this as a bad review? It's not. It's just indicative of how BMW is no longer the only sport sedan game in the industry. Others have caught up on the formula. As a consumer, that's a GOOD thing. That keeps BMW on its toes and keeps pricing competitive.
The title of the opinion piece is "good enough but not great" ... I wouldn't call that a good review. Also, my gripe with the review is that it is disingenuous, lazy and bias, and uses false premise to arrive at a conclusion.
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      09-09-2019, 04:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
The review is generally positive. All it says is that it's not the MOST dynamic or the MOST luxurious. It says it's still a dynamic car, is a noticeable improvement over the F30, and the only thing about it is that it is not the leader in any one thing. That is almost objectively true. The G20 is beat out at least by Merc and Audi as far as interior goes. The Giulia is hands down a more sporty car. The G70 is by far a better value. The only thing that is a bit subjective is the interior, but very few people rate the BMW as having the better interior. Technology and interior quality is definitely better in the newer Audis. (And I hate Audis).

That still makes BMW one of the best complete packages, though. Sure Alfa is sportier, but who wants to drive that unreliable hunk of junk every day? Sure the Audi has a nice interior, but it's not fun to drive. The Mercedes is a good car but it has a different character from the BMW. The G70 is a great car but the BMW is better overall, you just have to pay more for it.

So why does everyone interpret this as a bad review? It's not. It's just indicative of how BMW is no longer the only sport sedan game in the industry. Others have caught up on the formula. As a consumer, that's a GOOD thing. That keeps BMW on its toes and keeps pricing competitive.
Very well articulated. I agree with your assessment 100%.
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      09-10-2019, 11:06 PM   #33
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The general consensus of G20 reviews have been the same: improved, but meh. It doesn't stand out in any one area like 3-series of the past did. The competition has caught up and BMW has played it safe since 2012. It's a nice car, it's desirable, but not a must-have.
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      09-10-2019, 11:09 PM   #34
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The general consensus of G20 reviews have been the same: improved, but meh. It doesn't stand out in any one area like 3-series of the past did. The competition has caught up and BMW has played it safe since 2012. It's a nice car, it's desirable, but not a must-have.
All reviews do not say the same thing. Many reviews clearly state the G20 is the best 3 series to date ( straight pipes, top speed and others you can see for yourself). Fact check.
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      09-11-2019, 02:14 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
All reviews do not say the same thing. Many reviews clearly state the G20 is the best 3 series to date ( straight pipes, top speed and others you can see for yourself). Fact check.
That's more or less what he said, but that has nothing to do with how it stacks up to its current competition.
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      09-11-2019, 03:22 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
All reviews do not say the same thing. Many reviews clearly state the G20 is the best 3 series to date ( straight pipes, top speed and others you can see for yourself). Fact check.
#1 - I wouldn't say TheStraightPipes are a good source of judgement as per which generation of 3 series is best, as they likely haven't driven every generation, and they've mainly grew up in modern times, so of course a faster and newer tech filled car will definitely appeal more to them.

#2 No newer generation of 3 series will ever be "the best 3 series" simply because of how much technology, safety standards, and ever growing weight and size have made new cars even more isolated from the road compared to their past generations.

The G20 is good, and a big improvement from the F30, but I would never refer to it as the "best 3 series of all time," in my opinion, the Alfa Giulia is really more of a modern 3 series than the G20.
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      09-11-2019, 03:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
That's more or less what he said.......but that has nothing to do with how it stacks up to it's current competition.
"More or Less". You tell me is it more of what he said or less of what he said? Because if you go back and read what was written- it is not what was conveyed.
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      09-11-2019, 03:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
#1 - I wouldn't say TheStraightPipes are a good source of judgement as per which generation of 3 series is best, as they likely haven't driven every generation, and they've mainly grew up in modern times, so of course a faster and newer tech filled car will definitely appeal more to them.

#2 No newer generation of 3 series will ever be "the best 3 series" simply because of how much technology, safety standards, and ever growing weight and size have made new cars even more isolated from the road compared to their past generations.

The G20 is good, and a big improvement from the F30, but I would never refer to it as the "best 3 series of all time," in my opinion, the Alfa Giulia is really more of a modern 3 series than the G20.
1. Your Opinion
2. Your Opinion
3. Your Opinion

Are you sure the reason why you're so ultra sensitive about defending the CNBC Opinion piece isn't because you wrote it? ��
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      09-11-2019, 04:45 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
1. Your Opinion
2. Your Opinion
3. Your Opinion

Are you sure the reason why you're so ultra sensitive about defending the CNBC Opinion piece isn't because you wrote it? ��
For the first point, its not an opinion, because you can't call something the best of 7 generations, without driving all 7 generations, which I'm sure that the straight pipes haven't. Also I don't specifically remember them saying anywhere that it was the best 3 series made in the last 44 years of its existance. Saying something is best in class is different from the best of its nameplate to date.

Even the review you cited from Top Speed, pointed out that an Alfa Giulia, and Jaguar XE are more driver oriented and handle better. I have yet seen many articles or even forum posts on here that say that the G20 is the best of all 7 generations of 3ers. Like @Germanauto said, the consensus which can be found in numerous reviews is "improved, but meh" from Road and Track, MotorTrend, Car & Driver, Auto Authority, Top Gear, etc.

Drive an E21, E30, E36, E46, or E90 and you will see that while the new G20 is good, it will never match the driving dynamics and handling of these generations, so again, modern technology, increasing size and weight, most definitely make cars more isolated than ever. That is most definitely a proven fact.

There's a reason that the 3 even in its newest generation is still losing comparison tests. Cars like the Giulia, ATS, G70, C43, XE, Model 3, have all caught up to BMW and some have even surpassed it in driving dynamics. The Alfa is one of the most fun compact sports sedans on the market today, which while an opinion, its one that has been shared by many from, with the Giulia receiving critical acclaim for its great chassis, handling and steering feel.

While I agree with the article, I don't care about defending it, I simply disagree more with your point about the G20 being the best 3 series of all time, because... its not. And while I didn't write the CNBC article, it echos many of the statements in the comparison test that I did write. https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1641736
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      09-11-2019, 05:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
For the first point, its not an opinion, because you can't call something the best of 7 generations, without driving all 7 generations, which I'm sure that the straight pipes haven't. Also I don't specifically remember them saying anywhere that it was the best 3 series made in the last 44 years of its existance. Saying something is best in class is different from the best of its nameplate to date.

Even the review you cited from Top Speed, pointed out that an Alfa Giulia, and Jaguar XE are more driver oriented and handle better. I have yet seen many articles or even forum posts on here that say that the G20 is the best of all 7 generations of 3ers. Like @Germanauto said, the consensus which can be found in numerous reviews is "improved, but meh" from Road and Track, MotorTrend, Car & Driver, Auto Authority, Top Gear, etc.

Drive an E21, E30, E36, E46, or E90 and you will see that while the new G20 is good, it will never match the driving dynamics and handling of these generations, so again, modern technology, increasing size and weight, most definitely make cars more isolated than ever. That is most definitely a proven fact.

There's a reason that the 3 even in its newest generation is still losing comparison tests. Cars like the Giulia, ATS, G70, C43, XE, Model 3, have all caught up to BMW and some have even surpassed it in driving dynamics. The Alfa is one of the most fun compact sports sedans on the market today, which while an opinion, its one that has been shared by many from, with the Giulia receiving critical acclaim for its great chassis, handling and steering feel.

While I agree with the article, I don't care about defending it, I simply disagree more with your point about the G20 being the best 3 series of all time, because... its not. And while I didn't write the CNBC article, it echos many of the statements in the comparison test that I did write. https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1641736
Your Opinions are noted both above and those in your comparison piece. Your subjective interpretation of the word "best" - also noted ��
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      09-12-2019, 09:21 AM   #41
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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-economy-test/

Car magazines are so fickle. On one hand they pick and choose minor things to criticize because nobody wants to keep reading how the 3 series is back on top and untouchable. Then the very same magazine will write an article about how new 3 series is an unrivaled, amazing piece of engineering.

Competition is much more interesting and sells magazines and generates clicks. It's like when the same team wins the championship year after year and people lose interest in the sport.

Plus, BMW is held to such a high standard,(sometimes unfairly) that it gets to a point where we're not satisfied no matter how good of a product BMW delivers. And it's just not the car mags-Many of us on this forum are guilty of doing this as well. When i first test drove the G20 i was nitpicking every little thing about the car. But i have to stop comparing it the e46/e90 etc. BMW is trying to please every single demographic with this new car-moms, enthusiasts, daily drivers, solo commuters, families, luxury seekers, snobs, weekend drivers, etc. I think they have done an absolutely phenomenal job by literally pleasing everyone with this vehicle. It's a nearly perfect car for everyone. Most of the other competition, excels in 1 or 2 areas but doesn't offer this kind of complete package.

Last edited by alpinewhite3; 09-12-2019 at 09:28 AM..
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      09-12-2019, 05:12 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-economy-test/

Car magazines are so fickle. On one hand they pick and choose minor things to criticize because nobody wants to keep reading how the 3 series is back on top and untouchable. Then the very same magazine will write an article about how new 3 series is an unrivaled, amazing piece of engineering.

Competition is much more interesting and sells magazines and generates clicks. It's like when the same team wins the championship year after year and people lose interest in the sport.

Plus, BMW is held to such a high standard,(sometimes unfairly) that it gets to a point where we're not satisfied no matter how good of a product BMW delivers. And it's just not the car mags-Many of us on this forum are guilty of doing this as well. When i first test drove the G20 i was nitpicking every little thing about the car. But i have to stop comparing it the e46/e90 etc. BMW is trying to please every single demographic with this new car-moms, enthusiasts, daily drivers, solo commuters, families, luxury seekers, snobs, weekend drivers, etc. I think they have done an absolutely phenomenal job by literally pleasing everyone with this vehicle. It's a nearly perfect car for everyone. Most of the other competition, excels in 1 or 2 areas but doesn't offer this kind of complete package.
Well said
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      09-12-2019, 08:26 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-economy-test/

Car magazines are so fickle. On one hand they pick and choose minor things to criticize because nobody wants to keep reading how the 3 series is back on top and untouchable. Then the very same magazine will write an article about how new 3 series is an unrivaled, amazing piece of engineering.

Competition is much more interesting and sells magazines and generates clicks. It's like when the same team wins the championship year after year and people lose interest in the sport.

Plus, BMW is held to such a high standard,(sometimes unfairly) that it gets to a point where we're not satisfied no matter how good of a product BMW delivers. And it's just not the car mags-Many of us on this forum are guilty of doing this as well. When i first test drove the G20 i was nitpicking every little thing about the car. But i have to stop comparing it the e46/e90 etc. BMW is trying to please every single demographic with this new car-moms, enthusiasts, daily drivers, solo commuters, families, luxury seekers, snobs, weekend drivers, etc. I think they have done an absolutely phenomenal job by literally pleasing everyone with this vehicle. It's a nearly perfect car for everyone. Most of the other competition, excels in 1 or 2 areas but doesn't offer this kind of complete package.
Completely agree. I test drove the 330 and the M340, and the competitors, and researched a bit, and ended up ordering the M340. I needed something reliable-ish, fit the kids, could deal with crappy roads in winter, and I could still track/autocross from time to time. No other car really matched what I wanted quite as well. And the thing is, I could also do that in the 330 level with the MSport Package and would have a bit less power but a bit better steering.
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      09-13-2019, 09:12 AM   #44
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Completely agree. I test drove the 330 and the M340, and the competitors, and researched a bit, and ended up ordering the M340. I needed something reliable-ish, fit the kids, could deal with crappy roads in winter, and I could still track/autocross from time to time. No other car really matched what I wanted quite as well. And the thing is, I could also do that in the 330 level with the MSport Package and would have a bit less power but a bit better steering.
1. You can fit kids in the back of a 3 series? Bravo.
2. You still auto cross with those same tires? Bravo.
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