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      02-15-2020, 04:10 PM   #3257
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I want to like an all electric car. I even said my next car will probably be a Tesla in the other post. However, I drive 100 miles a day and for 5 out of those 7 days, there's a turn around time of 6 hours before I have to be back at work. So charging at home in 6 hours to to drive 100 miles is cutting it close.

Electric car with longer range is heavy and can not tow. I tow a 7200 pound trailer at least 10 times year for 200-1000 miles.

I work in the middle of nowhere and there are hardly any fast chargers around. There's no charging at work. I fuel up about once a week and it's not inconvenient to spend 5 minutes at the pump. The nearest level 2 charger near me is 20 miles away.

I love the acceleration of an electric car and there is great potential for cost saving. It will get cheaper, better, faster just not right now. That is why I said electric car is the future just not the immediate future.

For me the sweet spot would be 400 mile range and $35K. Until that time it's going to be ICE vehicles for a while.

I think your underlying premise is flawed: 6 hours of charging at home for 100 miles is not at all cutting it close. Most level 2 home charger/car combos will get your 25-40 miles/hour. So, in 6 hours of charging you'd gain 150 to 240 miles of range. Aka plenty for your 100 mile commute.

I also never thought pumping gas was a PITA in until I experienced life without having to do it. Now every time I do it, I feel like I'm wasting my time and flushing money down the toilet. It's impossible to drive past a gas pump in an EV and not laugh at the people still stuck pumping gas-- it just feels so primitive once it's not your norm.

I completely agree that an EV is a bad choice for towing. But, any vehicle that can competently tow 7200 lbs is a bad choice for DDing. I have a suburban. It seems 1-2000 miles of use per year, 100% of which falls into 4 categories:
1) towing
2) unplowed snow deeper than ~6 inches
3) I need a suburban sized cargo hold
4) >4 people riding together

NEVER would I choose to drive it if I didn't need its specific large car values. It's a miserable driving experience- just like every competent towing platform.

So, I'd say keep a poor dynamics SUV/truck for your towing needs, and don't suffer a tow capable vehicle the rest of the time.
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      02-15-2020, 05:05 PM   #3258
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I think your underlying premise is flawed: 6 hours of charging at home for 100 miles is not at all cutting it close. Most level 2 home charger/car combos will get your 25-40 miles/hour. So, in 6 hours of charging you'd gain 150 to 240 miles of range. Aka plenty for your 100 mile commute.

I also never thought pumping gas was a PITA in until I experienced life without having to do it. Now every time I do it, I feel like I'm wasting my time and flushing money down the toilet. It's impossible to drive past a gas pump in an EV and not laugh at the people still stuck pumping gas-- it just feels so primitive once it's not your norm.
x100000

This is often overlooked. Folks always ask me how I like my i3 and the conversation quickly evolves into $. I'll run through them the #s, converting mpg, $/gallon, $/kwh, etc. but I always end with what's my time worth. When I used to live in NJ, every gas station was full service (by law). Waiting for gas sucked but at least someone's doing the work for you. In CT however, its pump your own like most other states and it's so liberating not having to worry about pulling over, waiting on line for a pump to free up, letting the attendant inside know the pump isn't working, etc.

I put in long hours in the office, and every week I'd have the same conversation in my head at some point:

"Do I fill up now on my way to work, run the risk of being late or adding to my horrendous commute time? Or do I fill up on my way back, but run the risk that my preferred gas station may be closed? Well I have a 1/4 tank now so..." And in those not so rare instances things didn't work out, I was reliving that Seinfeld episode where Kramer is trying to see how far he can get on empty on that test drive.

With my i3, I set my charging schedule / climate conditioning on my phone based on my normal departure time and just go. And half the week, I'm lucky enough to grab one of the free charging spots in my office parking lot. And most EV owners are courteous enough to move their car after charging during lunch time (or won't use the spot even if its more closer to the entrance if they have no charging need) not so I can always check back.

But for all this fear of "will I have enough juice left for some theoretical road trip" is more than offset by the real daily hassles of having to decide if/when to fill up for gas. And the one time I had to do 300 miles in my i3, it wasn't that bad at all. I luckily have the REx so it's just a matter of optimizing driving style/mode, switching to REx around the halfway point, filling up and getting back on road. Once I got to my destination, I used a portable charger to get what I could and relied on the REx again. Sure I filled up few times but filling up a 3 gallon tank also only takes me 2 mins lol.
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      02-15-2020, 05:50 PM   #3259
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
So what are you doing besides ranting?
I don't need to do anything, here's why: a practical person asks, in 20 years do I want 10 million dollars or 10 million grievances? The former takes hands-on work, the latter takes shameless indulgence in one's emotions.

Ever study mechanics and make a force vector map? Basically you show all of the forces acting on an object - the key is, the forces have direction AND magnitude. In this way you can do predictive ballistics: where will the cannonball end up and how much energy will it have when it gets there?

Well, you can do this in business too. You take a product like EVs, you draw a force vector map: current position and acceleration. Then you draw all of the forces acting on that product. Now you can do predictive product ballistics: where's that product likely to end up and how much financial energy will it have when it gets there?

For me, I don't have any emotions about what the cannonball should be doing - I only care about what it's GOING to do.

Elon Musk, for example, decided he wanted EVs to be a thing - so he built a $140B company to do it. Greta Thunberg decided she doesn't like climate change so she became a globally recognized speaker, activist, and Nobel nominee at 17. So, what are the probabilistic ballistics of those things?

If you want to have more money than grievances, map out those forces and see what the data (vs your emotions) tells you: where are those things likely to end up?

I can give you the answer: those things are not only growing, but the growth is accelerating! Now that you know that, you can make money. or rant.

When I wake up every morning I have to fight an accelerating force called gravity. I could get mad at gravity for holding me down! and rant about my gravity grievances, and maybe even make money from people who'd like to outsource their grievances to me because they let their emotions control them ... but what a waste of a life that would be, ranting about accelerating forces that will remain unchanged despite my ranting.

Do better gravity! Do better.
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

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      02-15-2020, 06:22 PM   #3260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
So what are you doing besides ranting?
I don't need to do anything, here's why: a practical person asks, in 20 years do I want 10 million dollars or 10 million grievances? The former takes hands-on work, the latter takes shameless indulgence in one's emotions.

Ever study mechanics and make a force vector map? Basically you show all of the forces acting on an object - the key is, the forces have direction AND magnitude. In this way you can do predictive ballistics: where will the cannonball end up and how much energy will it have when it gets there?

Well, you can do this in business too. You take a product like EVs, you draw a force vector map: current position and acceleration. Then you draw all of the forces acting on that product. Now you can do predictive product ballistics: where's that product likely to end up and how much financial energy will it have when it gets there?

For me, I don't have any emotions about what the cannonball should be doing - I only care about what it's GOING to do.

Elon Musk, for example, decided he wanted EVs to be a thing - so he built a $140B company to do it. Greta Thunberg decided she doesn't like climate change so she became a globally recognized speaker, activist, and Nobel nominee at 17.

If you want to have more money than grievances, map out those forces and see what the data (vs your emotions) tells you: where are those things likely to end up?

I can give you the answer: those things are not only growing, but the growth is accelerating!

When I wake up every morning I have to fight an accelerating force called gravity. I could get mad at gravity and rant about my gravity grievances, and maybe even make money from people who'd like to outsource their grievances to me because they let their emotions control them ... but what a waste of a life that would be, ranting about accelerating forces that will remain unchanged despite my ranting.

gruss
a. greta(confirmed)and b. musk(i suspect it)have asperger's/ trait.
It is a gift and people with those trait have unshakeable belief and vision and good for them for any success they have.
That doesn't mean everyone one else will or should follow them
certainly it means they become huge pain in the asses for most folk in the world with government legislation and taxation in favour of ev's in their publicity wake.
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      02-15-2020, 08:09 PM   #3261
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You're talking about a single detached home with enough garage space for a charger.

I own a decent sized house but a single garage, wifes car gets to live in the garage. So with an EV, I'd be rolling out a cord every fucking day, 7 months a year in freezing cold or rain and every fuking morning rolling it up again.

Nope.

I am happy to fill up once every three weeks at the petrol station. Done.
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      02-15-2020, 08:35 PM   #3262
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
gruss
a. greta(confirmed)and b. musk(i suspect it)have asperger's/ trait.
It is a gift and people with those trait have unshakeable belief and vision and good for them for any success they have.
That doesn't mean everyone one else will or should follow them
certainly it means they become huge pain in the asses for most folk in the world with government legislation and taxation in favour of ev's in their publicity wake.
gruss just want's to argue and prove that everyone who isn't lock step with him is wrong.....he argues that the writer of the article isn't contributing anything because he isn't doing what Greta is doing, the fact is that Mr. Booth is doing something, he writes articles that challenge those who believe that at the end of the week we'll all be driving an EV or what ever. gruss has his beliefs, and it seems has put his money where his mouth is by buying Tesla stock, and yet he drives an M4, so is he drinking the kool aid, or does he just like to argue with everyone.....
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      02-16-2020, 05:58 AM   #3263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
You're talking about a single detached home with enough garage space for a charger.

I own a decent sized house but a single garage, wifes car gets to live in the garage. So with an EV, I'd be rolling out a cord every fucking day, 7 months a year in freezing cold or rain and every fuking morning rolling it up again.

Nope.

I am happy to fill up once every three weeks at the petrol station. Done.
If you're getting gas once every 3 weeks, there's no way you'd need to charge "every fucking day". Perhaps once a week if you got a very low range EV.

... But I don't miss pumping gas in miserable weather
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      02-16-2020, 06:55 AM   #3264
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I thought Porsche was working on an induction charger that you could drive onto the platform and not have to do a thing.
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      02-16-2020, 07:22 AM   #3265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
You're talking about a single detached home with enough garage space for a charger.

I own a decent sized house but a single garage, wifes car gets to live in the garage. So with an EV, I'd be rolling out a cord every fucking day, 7 months a year in freezing cold or rain and every fuking morning rolling it up again.

Nope.

I am happy to fill up once every three weeks at the petrol station. Done.
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
You're talking about a single detached home with enough garage space for a charger.


I own a decent sized house but a single garage, wifes car gets to live in the garage. So with an EV, I'd be rolling out a cord every fucking day, 7 months a year in freezing cold or rain and every fuking morning rolling it up again.

Nope.

I am happy to fill up once every three weeks at the petrol station. Done.
If you're getting gas once every 3 weeks, there's no way you'd need to charge "every fucking day". Perhaps once a week if you got a very low range EV.

... But I don't miss pumping gas in miserable weather


Ah.
with ev i (and most people would) want charge to be as full as possible every time lest you need it and it runs out and you get stuck.
with petrol you can still drive stress free till miles remaining is 10 or so as fuel stations are everywhere and take 2 minute to fill.
cant do that with EV.
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      02-16-2020, 07:54 AM   #3266
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Ah.
with ev i (and most people would) want charge to be as full as possible every time lest you need it and it runs out and you get stuck.
with petrol you can still drive stress free till miles remaining is 10 or so as fuel stations are everywhere and take 2 minute to fill.
cant do that with EV.
So I just watched the video on this thread of the Porsche Taycan Real Drag times. Interesting, and the thing is wicked fast and the only EV I have any interest in, and will never be able to afford. The thing that I was a bit surprised by was the "fast charge" segment, it took 51 minutes at a fast charge station to take the thing from 20% batter to 100% battery. Can you imagine being on a road trip, having to go searching for a charge station and then being third in line.
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      02-16-2020, 03:03 PM   #3267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Ah.
with ev i (and most people would) want charge to be as full as possible every time lest you need it and it runs out and you get stuck.
with petrol you can still drive stress free till miles remaining is 10 or so as fuel stations are everywhere and take 2 minute to fill.
cant do that with EV.
So I just watched the video on this thread of the Porsche Taycan Real Drag times. Interesting, and the thing is wicked fast and the only EV I have any interest in, and will never be able to afford. The thing that I was a bit surprised by was the "fast charge" segment, it took 51 minutes at a fast charge station to take the thing from 20% batter to 100% battery. Can you imagine being on a road trip, having to go searching for a charge station and then being third in line.
I wouldn't take one on the road.
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      02-16-2020, 04:32 PM   #3268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Ah.
with ev i (and most people would) want charge to be as full as possible every time lest you need it and it runs out and you get stuck.
with petrol you can still drive stress free till miles remaining is 10 or so as fuel stations are everywhere and take 2 minute to fill.
cant do that with EV.
So I just watched the video on this thread of the Porsche Taycan Real Drag times. Interesting, and the thing is wicked fast and the only EV I have any interest in, and will never be able to afford. The thing that I was a bit surprised by was the "fast charge" segment, it took 51 minutes at a fast charge station to take the thing from 20% batter to 100% battery. Can you imagine being on a road trip, having to go searching for a charge station and then being third in line.
3 kids under 10 and grandparents visit often so even if i were to consider ev taycan and the model 3 performance aren't even in the options list for now but between the two taycan anyday just have to win a lottery or something.
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      02-17-2020, 08:29 AM   #3269
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
So I just watched the video on this thread of the Porsche Taycan Real Drag times. Interesting, and the thing is wicked fast and the only EV I have any interest in, and will never be able to afford. The thing that I was a bit surprised by was the "fast charge" segment, it took 51 minutes at a fast charge station to take the thing from 20% batter to 100% battery. Can you imagine being on a road trip, having to go searching for a charge station and then being third in line.
And can you imagine how much more time is added by brain dead motorists that can't figure out how to use these charging stations? It's already bad enough at many gas pumps where some motorist is creeping along taking their lovely time to even get the pump started. I figure many times it's a wasted 10 minutes or so on top of the fueling time. Now just imagine how much more time is going to be added when you have a collection of these idiots at these charging stations. Gas pumps have been around for decades yet many people are still having problems. I swear there should be an IQ test before you're allowed to use self service stations.
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      02-17-2020, 08:33 AM   #3270
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This seems much more dangerous than a gas pump. Lol.

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      02-17-2020, 03:30 PM   #3271
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I like when I'm filling up the scooter and some dork is walking around the pumps with a lit cigarette.
Well, at least you know where the ignition point will be and who's going to die first.
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      02-17-2020, 04:13 PM   #3272
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Just waiting for the day that Tesla invents a lightweight, bolt-on replacement suspension assembly for each drive wheel that cost-effectively adds 20 hp per wheel with regeneration capabilities and a tiny ultra-efficient battery.
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      02-17-2020, 06:20 PM   #3273
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gruss just want's to argue and prove that everyone who isn't lock step with him is wrong ... gruss has his beliefs, and it seems has put his money where his mouth is by buying Tesla stock, and yet he drives an M4, so is he drinking the kool aid, or does he just like to argue with everyone.....
Just to repeat:

(1.) I don't own Tesla stock (or any stock directly), and,

(2.) yes - I drive an M4 Comp Indv 'vert that's never been out of 4th gear and I routinely drive 90MPH+ on the freeway, and about every 3 weeks (used to be weekly ), I do a 3-4 hour sport drive that burns about a tank a half of dino juice. And yes, I've driven against just about everything including Tesla 100Ds which are blisteringly fast ... for 15 minutes whereas I'm pretty fast until the tank runs out, but then I can fill in 5 min and do it all over again, and then drive home like the whole thing was a milk run vs the Tesla which would've burned down to the bolts hours ago which is why I don't have a Tesla, and

(3.) Tesla/BEV analysis isn't about "beliefs", it's about (choice a.) following the facts where they lead vs (choice b.) following your emotions where they lead and then making up trite talking points to justify where you end up, like "it's just californians extrapolating!" or "Elon is screwing everyone!" (by first making them millionaires? )

I was mentioning this thread to friend, telling him I was surprised at how surprised everyone here seems with Tesla's success ... he reminded me that non-linear curves aren't intuitive - they take intellectual work. So, WTF does that mean?

Well i'm a product guy and product people are used to hearing emotional beliefs, but then analyzing them for reality before acting on them. Further, once launched we use a non-linear product s-curve to analyze and track progress. This dude reminded me that if you're not used to doing that, then the s-turns look surprising. He shared this product s-curve map with me, and I thought holy shit, that's basically every post in this thread!



Tesla is probably around the "Wow, what is happening?" point. If you are invested in Tesla, get out before the next turn.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      02-17-2020, 06:34 PM   #3274
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ah dammit. For nerd completeness - if you are invested in Tesla, you don't need to sell before the next s-turn if you believe Tesla will have an on-going pipeline of disruptive innovation (e.g., like Apple from desktop to laptop to ipod to iphone to watch, et al). in that case the s-curve looks like this:



Further, this maps to the adoption graph I posted before like this:



And finally, for people that think Ford, GM, BMW are going to come into the BEV market and beat Tesla ... maybe, but history says they won't:



Note that Teslas have higher performance than ICE cars, both in terms of daily driving speed and features, thus ICE "sustaining innovation" will never be able to compete with BEVs, meaning legacy auto have to split their R&D between ICE and BEV vs Tesla who's 100% BEV. "new competitors nearly always win"
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      02-17-2020, 08:08 PM   #3275
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Oh, in case anybody's looking for a side hustle:

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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      02-17-2020, 10:23 PM   #3276
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Oh, in case anybody's looking for a side hustle

Autopilot roving landing pad engineering team?
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      02-17-2020, 11:02 PM   #3277
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Autopilot roving landing pad engineering team?
Just curious, but does this sound right:
Hey, did you hear about Bezos pledging $10B to hot-flash mother Earth? What a hypocrite - he has a private jet! Obviously this means Amazon is going to fail, duh.

Do you realize how inefficient it is to deliver products to people's doors??? So inefficient, lots of engineers are going to write so many op-eds on how inefficient it is! Plus, people are driving around all the time anyway and the bulk of consumer spending still happens in STORES! Everybody knows things don't ever change, Bezos is done! Sure, this kinda shit works in Washington, but it'll never work in the heartland! These Washingtonians are just extrapolating what they see.

And, Amazon barely makes a profit! Bezos is such a scammer - we should fixate on him!

Oh, and just wait until Big Boys Wal-Mart and Target start delivering to your door then Bezos is truly fucked! He won't be able to compete!

I'd be surprised if Amazon was around in 10 years.
Anyway, it does sound familiar to me. And, BTW, Amazon barely does make a profit:

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Last edited by GrussGott; 02-17-2020 at 11:11 PM..
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      02-18-2020, 10:00 AM   #3278
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Oh, in case anybody's looking for a side hustle:

It's going to be really interesting how Elon is going to shake up the solar industry. His acquisition of Solar City and then the new pricing model he has put in that challenges the established leasing models of companies such as Vivint is going to be interesting.
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