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      06-26-2019, 08:31 AM   #2025
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Not until we move past lithium battery technology and into solid state batteries, I don't see much in terms of wide spread adoption of EVs. 5 minute full charge is a must.
When Tesla Model 3 is outselling BMW 3er, Mercedes C Class, and Lexus IS combined...

I'd say the writing is all over the wall ‼️
Where is this happening? I don't see many Model 3s on the road and I live in the very populated suburbs of NYC
They do sell a lot in Sweden. I think T3 is the 5th most selling car right now. You pay extremely low tax if your company leases one for you.
What's the population of Sweden? 10 million? We have more then that in the New York Metro area alone
Yes. 10M. A pretty small population in a country the size of California.

My point is that I see at least 20 T3 a day. They sell 3 times more Tesla 3 than BMW 3-Series.
And my point is that you do not have many people in your country and your being FORCED by your ridiculous government to switch to EV.

So of course you see more Tesla's.

In this country with 30 times the amount of citizens and FREEDOM we barely see any Golf Carts (Tesla's).
Forced to, no. But There are no tax on EV, hybrids are also benefited. So ICE cost the same, but hybrid and EV are selling more than 50% here in Norway. And yes, we are a small country, but have huge resources, besides we also have a industry that's one of the leading into solar tech and hydrogen. US are big, but slow, and are falling behind. Besides you guys are " only" 330m, China is 1.3 billion, they are driving this industry now, and everyone and everthing is making moves after what this marked wants, and that is EV.
You guys can either jump on board, or look at
The train leave the station.
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      06-26-2019, 08:48 AM   #2026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron_jeremy View Post
Well, let put the ICE vs EV debate where the numbers says it all.

This is the numbers from another German maker, but the numbers is true for the industry.

E-tron/Q7
Assembly hours: 11 vs 33
Parts: 2500 / above 25.000
Moving parts: 70-90 / 2500
Energy efficient: 90% vs 30'ish
Sounds like a subject change ....

I made a simple statement about the end of ICE at BMW (not other manufacturers ) that directly body slams your "chicken little " postings that ICE is dead at BMW.

You can tell me about trends all day long but that is not the point I made and is changing the subject to one that supports you.

If 15 years ago you posted that DCT would wipe out 6 MT in 5 years you would simply be wrong. No need to start a discussion about take rates , or how long it takes to build one transmission vs the other , which one is *faster* , etc.

Simply stated. The end of ICE at BMW is well over a decade away. EVs are coming. They may well indeed be " superior " but they aren't taking over the world tomorrow, and they won't be taking over the U.S. for a long while. This country couldn't adopt an HDTV standard and keep to a set timetable. The end of ICE production for this market will not happen for decades.
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      06-26-2019, 09:06 AM   #2027
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Originally Posted by ron_jeremy View Post
Forced to, no. But There are no tax on EV, hybrids are also benefited. So ICE cost the same, but hybrid and EV are selling more than 50% here in Norway. And yes, we are a small country, but have huge resources, besides we also have a industry that's one of the leading into solar tech and hydrogen. US are big, but slow, and are falling behind. Besides you guys are " only" 330m, China is 1.3 billion, they are driving this industry now, and everyone and everthing is making moves after what this marked wants, and that is EV.
You guys can either jump on board, or look at
The train leave the station.
I am from Germany. I will definitely see the train leave the station. ICE forever. Everything else is not an opportunity if you are an enthusiast.
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      06-26-2019, 09:37 AM   #2028
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Originally Posted by chris82 View Post
It will take a tremendous amount of time, money and effort to get the US infrastructure ready for mass adoption of electric vehicles. Short highway stretches and local roads take YEARS to be simply repaved. Let's also not forget the increased demand from our power grids when everyone starts charging these cars, which in turn increases fossil fuel emissions since we still burn coal for a lot of our power needs. It's still a while off and not as clean as everyone thinks until we find more efficient, cleaner ways to generate energy.
Ehhhhh. That's all a stretch. The charging infrastructure is coming from OEMs and the power industry, not the states, for the most part. That happens quickly, because money. The two major power providers in Missouri will have a charging chain along the i70 corridor up and running in just a few years here.

As far as grid demand goes, a lot of the country has seen some stagnation and decline in load due to higher efficiency devices in use. EVs are going to start to increase that over time, but it's not like we're flipping a switch to 100% EVs next year. That load compensation will be fine.

As far as emissions, even the dirtiest coal plant is still going to be less emissions than a car per unit of power. The grid as a whole is much cleaner than that anyways and getting cleaner every year. That only gets better.

The range issue is a weird one to me. If you charge at home every night, I don't see why you would ever need to go 150 miles between charges. 99% usage isn't cross country road trips. It's peoples <100 mile daily adventures, which current offerings handle quite well.
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      06-26-2019, 09:48 AM   #2029
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Not until we move past lithium battery technology and into solid state batteries, I don't see much in terms of wide spread adoption of EVs. 5 minute full charge is a must.
When Tesla Model 3 is outselling BMW 3er, Mercedes C Class, and Lexus IS combined...

I'd say the writing is all over the wall ‼️
Where is this happening? I don't see many Model 3s on the road and I live in the very populated suburbs of NYC
There aren't that many here in LA either. I see a fair amount of Tesla's, but the numbers aren't anything close to a 3 Series or C Class.
https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-rivals-europe

Also outselling then in North America as well.

Search for yourself.
That article is about EUROPE. You also need to read the fine details.
He also said outselling the Germans COMBINED. Not true as per the article
He is a fanboi...
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      06-26-2019, 10:33 AM   #2030
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The German Government Wants All Electric Cars

If you look into this matter further you will find out that the German government wants to do away with gasoline cars. They are working with car companies in Germany to offer incentives and tax breaks to people who buy all electric cars. But, the German government also wants to hit people with a fine for not buying all electric cars as well. They are shooting for 2025 as the "you better be driving an all electric car" (or you'll get fined) date. So it's not really BMW it's the German government.
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      06-26-2019, 11:47 AM   #2031
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If you look into this matter further you will find out that the German government wants to do away with gasoline cars. They are working with car companies in Germany to offer incentives and tax breaks to people who buy all electric cars. But, the German government also wants to hit people with a fine for not buying all electric cars as well. They are shooting for 2025 as the "you better be driving an all electric car" (or you'll get fined) date. So it's not really BMW it's the German government.
That's the kind of pie in the sky socialism I personally don't like.
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      06-26-2019, 10:29 PM   #2032
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Originally Posted by karmensandiego View Post
If you look into this matter further you will find out that the German government wants to do away with gasoline cars. They are working with car companies in Germany to offer incentives and tax breaks to people who buy all electric cars. But, the German government also wants to hit people with a fine for not buying all electric cars as well. They are shooting for 2025 as the "you better be driving an all electric car" (or you'll get fined) date. So it's not really BMW it's the German government.
That's the kind of pie in the sky socialism I personally don't like.
I agree with you. It should be more of a choice. I don't think we've run out of gasoline yet.
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      06-27-2019, 09:03 AM   #2033
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The range issue is a weird one to me. If you charge at home every night, I don't see why you would ever need to go 150 miles between charges.
Here's my pet peeve popping up again. Because you don't see why someone would ever need to go 150 miles between charges, you dismiss it and call it a "weird" issue.

As just one real-world example, I travel from my home in Bergen County NJ, to my company's US headquarters in Garnet Valley PA (outside of Philadelphia) at least 4 times a month. It's at least 250 miles round trip, and that's not counting any driving I may do while at headquarters.

To add another real-world example, since I am in sales and cover the entire NY-Metro area, this means I drive out to the east-end of Long Island (think: Hamptons area) 2-3 times a month. That's a SOLID 100 miles just to get out there. So including driving from meeting to meeting, then home it's another ~250 mile day. To say nothing about Cross Bronx/GWB traffic, or conducting business in the car while parked impacting range.

While I'm detailing how an EV just straight up wouldn't work for how I use my personal vehicle, I'll mention again that I'm like millions of other people in the NY-Metro area.... I have zero ability to charge an EV at home. An EV simply isn't an option for me.

So many people just think that everyone lives as they do. That isn't how life works.
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      06-27-2019, 12:42 PM   #2034
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Originally Posted by ron_jeremy View Post
Forced to, no. But There are no tax on EV, hybrids are also benefited. So ICE cost the same, but hybrid and EV are selling more than 50% here in Norway. And yes, we are a small country, but have huge resources, besides we also have a industry that's one of the leading into solar tech and hydrogen. US are big, but slow, and are falling behind. Besides you guys are " only" 330m, China is 1.3 billion, they are driving this industry now, and everyone and everthing is making moves after what this marked wants, and that is EV.
You guys can either jump on board, or look at
The train leave the station.
Right...
Well, You are forced. You just refuse to see it. If they will offer you a choice, they will keep both choices free of any taxes or subsidies.

I dictate my life and my choices, and I am actually against sheep rules. Just the fact that somebody imposes things on me, makes me cringe and do the opposite. And, I will not live in a such country.
And when I am buying a car I am involving all my senses in and I buy it to feel it, love it, otherwise I will take the plane, or subway, or whatever. Not the least, until they will prove that an EV has zero EMF field inside, I will not buy it.
Secondly, ICE will not go soon and dont want to. You guys go and buy your EV, get that government subsidies, etc. I will feel better with less people with ICE, dont care about your opinion and never will.
Third, all this nonsense is a political move not an environmental one. Once all of you are aboard, you will be at the discretion of your government. Control much?
Need some glasses?
So...
Take the train! Oh, you have one already....

Last edited by Teutonic; 06-27-2019 at 12:47 PM..
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      06-27-2019, 12:46 PM   #2035
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Originally Posted by karmensandiego View Post
If you look into this matter further you will find out that the German government wants to do away with gasoline cars. They are working with car companies in Germany to offer incentives and tax breaks to people who buy all electric cars. But, the German government also wants to hit people with a fine for not buying all electric cars as well. They are shooting for 2025 as the "you better be driving an all electric car" (or you'll get fined) date. So it's not really BMW it's the German government.
Vote hour idiot government down.
This is not freedom, this is a dictatorial move.
Anyway, let the germans die if thats what they want. Beside the fact that many will not switch to electric, there will be mo reason for other markets to buy a german electric vehicle. They will all be the same shit.
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      06-27-2019, 12:52 PM   #2036
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Check your facts, we've had (Norway) the roadster since 2011 and the Model S since 2013. And here BMW 3 series are about 8** units a month, model 3 is 2/3 times that.
So you guys drive all of you the same car? What a lame country to live in....
ugh....
Go and find your freedom mate. Life is full of colors....
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      06-27-2019, 01:26 PM   #2037
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Actually to be fair before you speak up yeah Swedish government is pushing
My self i din't switch to an EV vehicles because the government pushed me to it, i switched because i found the EV vehicles are a lot more fun then ICE vehicles, and Fun is a subjective term what i regard as fun is different then you but if my fun causes less harm for the environment then great that's just a bonus on the list. So don't assume stuff if you know nothing about the other person or other people for that matter. It makes ya look foolish.
For me, a train is not fun. If I will be blind and deaf, I will probably don’t care. But my senses are alive, and the feelings make me an enthusiast, not the colour or the power of the car. Ride a 50 HP motocross bike, maybe you will know what I mean.
Secondly, Don’t need to know anything about you or the other person. As a guy that spent few years with car companies on a career level, I can tell you that you look foolish.

Beside the politics that drive the whole electric ideea, please educate yourself. It seems that you care about the environment. Mee too! Highly actually.
And as a guy who knows the dirty secrets of an electric vehicle, including the un-healthiness that a such vehicles bring to your body, I suggest you to do some research and find out more about producing an electric vehicle, where the elements come from, how are they mined, who works to bring them to surface, what is hidden behind your electric vehicle and so on. The wars were always about resources and today is no different. Politics is the main element and the pivot in this movement. But all takes you blindly to a spot where you will be totaly controlled. And in here I am not refferring only to surveillance, car monitoring, live updates, personal data collection, etc., but also at the discretion of the government to control your behaviour, your freedom of travel, of movement, not to mention your freedom of choice. Only the fact that they give incentives for electrical and punish the fossil fuel ones, should bring a question mark to your own thinking. Right? Or you follow blindly?
You were mentioning diet for people. Ignoring your -scary- socialist thinking (everybody should eat what they want just leave the people the choice), do you know the TRUE level of cholesterol or you are listening to others that tells you that you are not ok?
Be careful with your level of credibility.
If you are as open government as you claim, honest and offer the freedom of choice, please let the people decide. People can choose if they want a turntable, a reel to reel or a cd player. Let them choose. Let me tell you a secret: your government never cared about you.

Seems that you are not really indifferent so give the “other side” the benefit of the doubt and try to see the things from other perspective. You have no idea how dirty your vehicle is.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco.../#76d36e66cc6e

Last edited by Teutonic; 06-27-2019 at 01:50 PM..
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      06-27-2019, 03:12 PM   #2038
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Here's my pet peeve popping up again. Because you don't see why someone would ever need to go 150 miles between charges, you dismiss it and call it a "weird" issue.

As just one real-world example, I travel from my home in Bergen County NJ, to my company's US headquarters in Garnet Valley PA (outside of Philadelphia) at least 4 times a month. It's at least 250 miles round trip, and that's not counting any driving I may do while at headquarters.

To add another real-world example, since I am in sales and cover the entire NY-Metro area, this means I drive out to the east-end of Long Island (think: Hamptons area) 2-3 times a month. That's a SOLID 100 miles just to get out there. So including driving from meeting to meeting, then home it's another ~250 mile day. To say nothing about Cross Bronx/GWB traffic, or conducting business in the car while parked impacting range.

While I'm detailing how an EV just straight up wouldn't work for how I use my personal vehicle, I'll mention again that I'm like millions of other people in the NY-Metro area.... I have zero ability to charge an EV at home. An EV simply isn't an option for me.

So many people just think that everyone lives as they do. That isn't how life works.
I wasn't implying that it was weird because people who drive a lot don't exist. I was saying it's weird because the vast majority of daily commutes don't exceed that.

When people throw electric vehicles out because of that range limitation, they're doing the same thing. Assuming no one can own one because some people drive further than that.

Curiously, why can't you charge at home?
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      06-27-2019, 05:00 PM   #2039
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Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I wasn't implying that it was weird because people who drive a lot don't exist. I was saying it's weird because the vast majority of daily commutes don't exceed that.

When people throw electric vehicles out because of that range limitation, they're doing the same thing. Assuming no one can own one because some people drive further than that.

Curiously, why can't you charge at home?
Personally, I live in a condo with my parking spot no place near my unit. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of other people in the NY-Metro area alone use on-street parking and also have zero ability to charge a vehicle at home. My point is, it's not a smart business decision to willingly invest what looks like their entire line of products in a powertrain technology that a sizable portion of buyers couldn't own if they wanted. Not everyone lives in a home with a private driveway.

Q: What is the point? A: Politics. Politiclly driven automotive design is a recipe for disaster. Build vehicles people want to buy, not ones that you foresee them reluctantly having to buy. If I'm not in love, why spend so much money on a luxury brand?

Last point... BMW and other manufacturers aren't passive observers in these oppressive anti-ICE regulations. They push and support them! When our President proposed loosening these unreasonable regulations did he receive support from any automotive manufacturer? Nope. They pushed back.
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      06-27-2019, 06:16 PM   #2040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Personally, I live in a condo with my parking spot no place near my unit. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of other people in the NY-Metro area alone use on-street parking and also have zero ability to charge a vehicle at home. My point is, it's not a smart business decision to willingly invest what looks like their entire line of products in a powertrain technology that a sizable portion of buyers couldn't own if they wanted. Not everyone lives in a home with a private driveway.

Q: What is the point? A: Politics. Politiclly driven automotive design is a recipe for disaster. Build vehicles people want to buy, not ones that you foresee them reluctantly having to buy. If I'm not in love, why spend so much money on a luxury brand?

Last point... BMW and other manufacturers aren't passive observers in these oppressive anti-ICE regulations. They push and support them! When our President proposed loosening these unreasonable regulations did he receive support from any automotive manufacturer? Nope. They pushed back.
The condo situation makes sense, though I suspect that lot charging is coming a lot sooner than later. (Years, not Decades)

As far as anti combustion stuff, Germany is a terrible example of cleaning up anyways. They're base load barely survived their rapid 'greening' and they ended up burning a ton of coal to support it. I can't imagine that BMW has plans within the next decade to go full electric anyways.

The full electrification will happen a much slower pace, and I don't know if the US will ever outright bar them. On the grand scale, non industrial vehicle emissions is WAY down on the polluters list.
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      06-27-2019, 06:56 PM   #2041
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The condo situation makes sense, though I suspect that lot charging is coming a lot sooner than later. (Years, not Decades)
Let talk about "lot charging." For mass proliferation of EVs to work, we would need a charging unit for every parking spot. That's a huge project. Who's going to pay for that? How much are my maintenance fees going to be after I have to subsidize this massive expenditure? People like me are supposed to support politicians that propose such lunacy? No fucking way I am. I'm doing the opposite.

One other real world anecdotal situation to ponder... since the Northeast Blackout of 2003, I personally have had at least 2 situations (the other being Superstorm Sandy) where I didn't have electric for several days. In both of these situations having a gasoline powered vehicle provided a HUGE benefit. I like the idea of being able to go get a gas can and refill my car if things go awry. What are EV owners going to do if power goes out for days on end?

Another issue is what about if the power just goes out for one evening? This happens fairly regularly (say once every other year). Am I going to have to call out of work because my car didn't charge last night?

I think having diversity of energy supplying various systems in my life is a safety issue. I'm not comfortable putting all my eggs in the electric basket.
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      06-27-2019, 07:02 PM   #2042
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Why the global fossil-fuel phase-out is a fantasy akin to time travel
To produce the power needed to offset fossil fuels, Canada would have to build two and a half $13-billion hydro dams every year


https://business.financialpost.com/o...to-time-travel


Judging from the headlines, Canada and the world are on track to ratchet up renewable energy and begin the rapid scale-down and ultimate phase-out of fossil fuels. Most energy analysts consider the fossil-fuel phase-out to be a scientific, economic and political fantasy, akin to levitation and time travel, but the movement keeps making news.
Electromagnetic levitation is real. Maglevs, and magnetic bearing are only a few examples of how we use it.

Time travel in a sense is real. Gravitational time dilation could theoretically "send" something into the future in which the object doesn't experience the same amount of time pass.

Never say never. What is possible today was at one point thought of as impossible. I remember people saying that the computer would never be in the home, nor would we need one in every home. Now we have one in our pocket. People will always, always say something is impossible. They have about as much credibility as those who say anything is possible.
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      06-27-2019, 07:06 PM   #2043
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Let talk about "lot charging." For mass proliferation of EVs to work, we would need a charging unit for every parking spot. That's a huge project. Who's going to pay for that? How much is my maintenance fees going to be after I have to subsidize this massive expenditure? People like me are supposed to support politicians that propose such lunacy? No fucking way I am. I'm doing the opposite.
They said the same thing about gas stations. How in the world are we going to get gas to every corner of the world so people could fill up their cars with fuel? The answer is profit. If I can pay for power to charge my car while I'm in the grocery store, someone will make it happen so I can pay them.

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One other real world anecdotal situation to ponder... since the Northeast Blackout of 2003, I personally have had at least 2 situations (the other being Superstorm Sandy) where I didn't have electric for several days. In both of these situations having a gasoline powered vehicle provided a HUGE benefit. I like the idea of being able to go get a gas can and refill my car if things go awry. What are EV owners going to do if power goes out for days on end?
Use a generator.

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I think having diversity of energy supplying various systems in my life is a safety issue. I'm not comfortable putting all my eggs in the electric basket.
People once thought the same about gasoline.
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      06-27-2019, 07:24 PM   #2044
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Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I wasn't implying that it was weird because people who drive a lot don't exist. I was saying it's weird because the vast majority of daily commutes don't exceed that.

When people throw electric vehicles out because of that range limitation, they're doing the same thing. Assuming no one can own one because some people drive further than that.

Curiously, why can't you charge at home?
Personally, I live in a condo with my parking spot no place near my unit. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of other people in the NY-Metro area alone use on-street parking and also have zero ability to charge a vehicle at home. My point is, it's not a smart business decision to willingly invest what looks like their entire line of products in a powertrain technology that a sizable portion of buyers couldn't own if they wanted. Not everyone lives in a home with a private driveway.

Q: What is the point? A: Politics. Politiclly driven automotive design is a recipe for disaster. Build vehicles people want to buy, not ones that you foresee them reluctantly having to buy. If I'm not in love, why spend so much money on a luxury brand?

Last point... BMW and other manufacturers aren't passive observers in these oppressive anti-ICE regulations. They push and support them! When our President proposed loosening these unreasonable regulations did he receive support from any automotive manufacturer? Nope. They pushed back.
Bravo Bravo

This man gets it!
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      06-27-2019, 07:25 PM   #2045
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even elon is giving up on tesla and his musk-ateers:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tunes-to-tesla
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      06-27-2019, 07:29 PM   #2046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Use a generator.
And that one works with....? Oh yea, I get it...
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