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      08-28-2019, 12:22 PM   #1057
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      08-28-2019, 01:23 PM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super51fan View Post


So the Supra isn't tail happy even though everyone who drifts it talks about how easy it is to drift? What a strange way to justify that.

The truth of the matter is the A90 chassis is a better chassis than the M2C's.
I am not saying that as "supra good, M2 bad" but as a reference that the Supra has a newer chassis with 2 teams of engineers working to create a dedicated sports car and not an //M tweaked compact coupe chassis. The next M2 will be even better, but for now the Supra has the better chassis
there can be different degree of tail happy, and that's how manufacture decides to tune it.

I'm not one of those OMG Toyota is faster, impossible, just saying a lot is at the hands of how manufacture wants to setup, and it's all "compromise", shouldn't read as much into it
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      08-28-2019, 01:31 PM   #1059
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Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
It's nice they put the video up, but I suspect the result would be different if they swapped drivers. Whoever is in the Supra is a much, MUCH better driver than the driver in the M2 Competition.

Just look at their hands (and I don't mean because racing gloves. See how much sawing the M2 driver does, and how much quicker he's moving his hands at corner entry).

This is like that one time where I chased down a 996 Turbo S in my bone stock Z4 3.0i at Buttonwillow. doesn't make the Z4 a better or faster car than the Turbo S.
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      08-28-2019, 01:40 PM   #1060
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
How is the base Cayman that close? Doesn't bode well for an S, GTS or GT4 just handing either BMW their ass.
Cayman is mid-engine and weighs significantly less (think its under 3,000 lbs). The power to weight ratio prob isnt that far off from the BMW and Toyota plus the handling characteristics of the mid-engine chassis make up time in the corners.
Oh I know. And with rumor of a detuned GT4 six replacing at some of the four bangers, things are just going to get worse.
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      08-28-2019, 02:22 PM   #1061
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Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
Let's not forget that more versions of the Supra are coming.
Sure, but I don't think they're going to move the engine location.
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      08-28-2019, 04:10 PM   #1062
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Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
Sure, but I don't think they're going to move the engine location.
No sh*t sherlock.


Anways, according the post on Jalopnik the $60k "track" Supra will have the same B58D as the US Z4. According to those in the know, the "$80k GRMN Supra" will be something special. We'll have to wait and see if they're BSing on the latter. However you cut it, the Supra is still a cheaper car than the Cayman.
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      08-28-2019, 05:14 PM   #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
No sh*t sherlock.


Anways, according the post on Jalopnik the $60k "track" Supra will have the same B58D as the US Z4. According to those in the know, the "$80k GRMN Supra" will be something special. We'll have to wait and see if they're BSing on the latter. However you cut it, the Supra is still a cheaper car than the Cayman.
That’s why the Supra is middling. Want a manual and a great “feel” car? Spend a little more on a base Cayman or maybe an M2C. Want performance? Blow the Supra away with a C8. I mean, will the alleged $80k Supra even compete with the $55K C8?
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      08-28-2019, 06:08 PM   #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
That’s why the Supra is middling. Want a manual and a great “feel” car? Spend a little more on a base Cayman or maybe an M2C. Want performance? Blow the Supra away with a C8. I mean, will the alleged $80k Supra even compete with the $59.9K C8?
A little more? I think most base Cayman sell for like $60k+ once you start adding on options. Sure, Zupras currently have mark ups, but that will go away like with all other new cars. Glad you brought up the C8, so is the Cayman even relevant? Not that I'm going to buy one, but at least the base Zupra is priced like $10k under the base C8. I also would not be shocked if Toyota lowered the MSRP for the Zupra next year. There is precedence for this. In 97 Toyota did cut the price of the A80 Supra when GM rolled out the cheaper C5. Idk, time will tell.

Last edited by supra93; 08-28-2019 at 07:14 PM..
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      08-28-2019, 07:34 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
A little more? I think most base Cayman sell for like $60k+ once you start adding on options. Sure, Zupras currently have mark ups, but that will go away like with all other new cars. Glad you brought up the C8, so is the Cayman even relevant? Not that I'm going to buy one, but at least the base Zupra is priced like $10k under the base C8. I also would not be shocked if Toyota lowered the MSRP for the Zupra next year. There is precedence for this. In 97 Toyota did cut the price of the A80 Supra when GM rolled out the cheaper C5. Idk, time will tell.
Yeah, I guess I don't consider the $10K difference between the Supra and Cayman/C8 to be a huge hurdle, but that is the selling point of the Supra. As far as the Cayman goes, Porsches have always been about handling and feel, and I'd pick it simply because of the manual option. If Toyota brings a manual, then I think it would be more compelling for $10K less.
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      08-29-2019, 06:50 PM   #1066
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      08-30-2019, 02:54 PM   #1067
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So many say Toyota should have used a lightened Lexus chassis with either the 2UR V8 or V35a TT V6 and 'still could have easily made money.' The RC-F Track Edition is exactly what they are describing so why aren't people flocking to buy it?
Well when Toyota makes a car like this in house, it comes out just shy of $100k and doesn't have the numbers to justify the price. Of course performance isn't everything for the RC-F but it really goes to show roughly how expensive the car that 'could have been so cheap' would have been to produce.

RC-F numbers (estimated) vs Supra numbers courtesy of Car and Driver
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      08-30-2019, 03:20 PM   #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super51fan View Post
So many say Toyota should have used a lightened Lexus chassis with either the 2UR V8 or V35a TT V6 and 'still could have easily made money.' The RC-F Track Edition is exactly what they are describing so why aren't people flocking to buy it?
Well when Toyota makes a car like this in house, it comes out just shy of $100k and doesn't have the numbers to justify the price. Of course performance isn't everything for the RC-F but it really goes to show roughly how expensive the car that 'could have been so cheap' would have been to produce.

RC-F numbers (estimated) vs Supra numbers courtesy of Car and Driver
I don't know about others, but I wasn't talking about a lightened chassis. I was talking about a smaller one. Just cut down the RC-F chassis (like BMW did with the E82 vs E92,) use the TT V6, make it less luxurious, and sell it for $10K-$15K less than the $65 RC-F. Then it would be a real Supra.
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      08-30-2019, 03:24 PM   #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by super51fan View Post
So many say Toyota should have used a lightened Lexus chassis with either the 2UR V8 or V35a TT V6 and 'still could have easily made money.' The RC-F Track Edition is exactly what they are describing so why aren't people flocking to buy it?
Well when Toyota makes a car like this in house, it comes out just shy of $100k and doesn't have the numbers to justify the price. Of course performance isn't everything for the RC-F but it really goes to show roughly how expensive the car that 'could have been so cheap' would have been to produce.

RC-F numbers (estimated) vs Supra numbers courtesy of Car and Driver
I don't know about others, but I wasn't talking about a lightened chassis. I was talking about a smaller one. Just cut down the RC-F chassis (like BMW did with the E82 vs E92,) use the TT V6, make it less luxurious, and sell it for $10K-$15K less than the $65 RC-F. Then it would be a real Supra.
How is a shortened RC chassis a smaller platform? And just like the E82, it would weigh nearly the same as the donor chassis. Which is to say more than 400 pounds heavier than where the Mk5 ended up.
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      08-30-2019, 04:18 PM   #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
I don't know about others, but I wasn't talking about a lightened chassis. I was talking about a smaller one. Just cut down the RC-F chassis (like BMW did with the E82 vs E92,) use the TT V6, make it less luxurious, and sell it for $10K-$15K less than the $65 RC-F. Then it would be a real Supra.
A V6 would be a "real Supra?"

The fanboi, whiners would have still lost their minds over that as well.

It's really the under-35 crowd mad they didn't just re-release the A80 because "1000 hp mad tyte JDM yo!"
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      08-30-2019, 04:38 PM   #1071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
A V6 would be a "real Supra?"

The fanboi, whiners would have still lost their minds over that as well.

It's really the under-35 crowd mad they didn't just re-release the A80 because "1000 hp mad tyte JDM yo!"
Yes. If one has to pick between a V6 car made by Toyota, and an inline-6 car made by BMW, I'd certainly say the former is more "Supra," regardless of the engine configuration. What we got was essentially a Z4 coupe with Toyota body panels.

BTW, I'm over 35 and could care less about Fast and the Furious.
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      08-30-2019, 05:04 PM   #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
I don't know about others, but I wasn't talking about a lightened chassis. I was talking about a smaller one. Just cut down the RC-F chassis (like BMW did with the E82 vs E92,) use the TT V6, make it less luxurious, and sell it for $10K-$15K less than the $65 RC-F. Then it would be a real Supra.
This is exactly what I am saying, no offense but who are you to know how much it would cost to produce? You have no idea how much it costs to the V35a in the car over the 2ur. And the car doesn't have the economies of scale that the RC300/RC350 shares parts with.

The RC is already a shortened chassis of the IS/ISC/GS and it didn't weigh any less than any of them. Even then, that doesn't make it this car handle how it does now and instead it will feel just like a luxury car. And you still wouldn't have a decent gearbox or an inline 6.

BTW I wasn't referring to you at all, its common copy and paste logic all over the internet.
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      08-30-2019, 05:53 PM   #1073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super51fan View Post
This is exactly what I am saying, no offense but who are you to know how much it would cost to produce? You have no idea how much it costs to the V35a in the car over the 2ur. And the car doesn't have the economies of scale that the RC300/RC350 shares parts with.

The RC is already a shortened chassis of the IS/ISC/GS and it didn't weigh any less than any of them. Even then, that doesn't make it this car handle how it does now and instead it will feel just like a luxury car. And you still wouldn't have a decent gearbox or an inline 6.

BTW I wasn't referring to you at all, its common copy and paste logic all over the internet.
You're right, I don't know what the cost is, but I run a company, and my dad was a bean counter for GM, so I also might have an idea of what not to do.

This car has become very polarizing. By essentially re-skinning a BMW in order to save money, rather than creating a true Supra successor, Toyota may have turned off enough potential Supra buyers that the car won't be successful, anyways. I guess we'll see.

I'm 42 years old, I loved the RX-7/Supra/NSX as a teen, my last several cars have been 2 seat or 2+2 sports cars, and the Supra is within my price range, yet I'm still not interested at all.

Toyota apparently polled potential buyers and found out that the inline-6 was important in designing a new Supra, which it certainly is, but how many of us thought that would mean it would be a 2-seat BMW without a manual option?? I know that Toyota has been mentioning a possible manual transmission lately, so maybe that will help, at least.

Last edited by duder13; 08-30-2019 at 06:01 PM..
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      08-30-2019, 06:31 PM   #1074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
You're right, I don't know what the cost is, but I run a company, and my dad was a bean counter for GM, so I also might have an idea of what not to do.

This car has become very polarizing. By essentially re-skinning a BMW in order to save money, rather than creating a true Supra successor, Toyota may have turned off enough potential Supra buyers that the car won't be successful, anyways. I guess we'll see.

I'm 42 years old, I loved the RX-7/Supra/NSX as a teen, my last several cars have been 2 seat or 2+2 sports cars, and the Supra is within my price range, yet I'm still not interested at all.

Toyota apparently polled potential buyers and found out that the inline-6 was important in designing a new Supra, which it certainly is, but how many of us thought that would mean it would be a 2-seat BMW without a manual option?? I know that Toyota has been mentioning a possible manual transmission lately, so maybe that will help, at least.
I am not questioning your marketing sense, I am questioning your knowledge of Toyota production costs. You say it would be $50K-$55k for a car with a shortened lightened less luxury Lexus chassis with a V35a and unique interior and exterior. But that just described the the $95K RC F track edition without even factoring the costs of a unique interior and exterior and cost differential of the V35a over the 2ur. What makes the car $40K cheaper out of no where?

They may have turned people off but they also brought in new perspective buyers. Yeah they definitely should have tried to replicate their 90s sales flop for the sake of bragging rights by celica owners at car meets. If it doesn't sell well, that just means it lives up to its predecessor.

The manual transmission part isn't a big deal today for everyone especially at a time when the corvette and 3 series wont have them either.
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      08-31-2019, 06:07 PM   #1075
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Folks talk about weight all the time. It's difficult to build a sub 3k car with all the electric creature comforts most have become accustomed to and the safety kit that is mandated in modern highway safety times.also keep in mind that US vs EU have different regs.

I've seen some evidence that the US parts are heavier, despite the US having weaker rules. That's another discussion.

There's a push for 0-60 times and huge HP, necessitating longer and heavier cars to out the power down. Another discussion...

Then the manuals are fading away without development of the tech. Where is my rev matching manual? Why don't we have ultra smooth and fast clutches and gear levers? There was talk about adapting some of the clutch and gear transfer tech from the DCT to help speed up MT shifting and work, saw some progress in articles and then it never went anywhere. Manuals haven't gotten much if any love in the last 15y as opposed to massive advancement in auto. Self fulfilling prophecy.
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      08-31-2019, 07:51 PM   #1076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post
Folks talk about weight all the time. It's difficult to build a sub 3k car with all the electric creature comforts most have become accustomed to and the safety kit that is mandated in modern highway safety times.also keep in mind that US vs EU have different regs.

I've seen some evidence that the US parts are heavier, despite the US having weaker rules. That's another discussion.

There's a push for 0-60 times and huge HP, necessitating longer and heavier cars to out the power down. Another discussion...

Then the manuals are fading away without development of the tech. Where is my rev matching manual? Why don't we have ultra smooth and fast clutches and gear levers? There was talk about adapting some of the clutch and gear transfer tech from the DCT to help speed up MT shifting and work, saw some progress in articles and then it never went anywhere. Manuals haven't gotten much if any love in the last 15y as opposed to massive advancement in auto. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Huh? Many manual transmissions do have rev matching now (my f80 m3 for example) and how can you make a manual clutch or shift lever faster? The whole point of it is that you, the human, control the shift and determine how fast it will be.
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      08-31-2019, 08:03 PM   #1077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Huh? Many manual transmissions do have rev matching now (my f80 m3 for example) and how can you make a manual clutch or shift lever faster? The whole point of it is that you, the human, control the shift and determine how fast it will be.
Proper chassis and transmission mounted linkages are faster than what BMW typically uses for example. My best experience with this is Honda, BMW 6MT are quite slow without really working at rowing.

Better tuned hydraulics make clutch actuation faster.

Perhaps quicker, more precise and closer is better wording.

Dealer didn't have a manual when I was there, does the F80 MT prep cogs and match gear speeds between shifts? If truly so I concede and tip my hat to that at least.
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      08-31-2019, 08:34 PM   #1078
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People really need to get over the fact that Toyota didn't make this car. Toyota has not beat around the bush here as they have fully admitted the reason they partnered with BMW to make this car is because the Toyota of today could not build this car and maintain an affordable price point.
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