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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) Local Forums UK Suffered the wrath of the EV community today...

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      01-17-2020, 01:17 PM   #1
Cranester1983
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Suffered the wrath of the EV community today...

... genuine mistake!

https://twitter.com/_keithcrane/stat...019780103?s=21

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      01-17-2020, 03:58 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Cranester1983 View Post
Well that told you......
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      01-17-2020, 04:37 PM   #3
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I see it all too often.

Especially frustrating for BEV owners where there are restricted charger numbers.

This will only get worse as most people are driven towards PHEV for tax purposes and more people without home charging get mis-directed towards BEVs on the promise of cheap rapid charging.
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      01-17-2020, 05:01 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by petrolpusher View Post
I see it all too often.

Especially frustrating for BEV owners where there are restricted charger numbers.

This will only get worse as most people are driven towards PHEV for tax purposes and more people without home charging get mis-directed towards BEVs on the promise of cheap rapid charging.
I wonder if it will be any different in the future.

I have this mental picture of a holiday weekend, say going in or out of Cornwall. Every Motorway Services, with thousands of motorists an hour, needing their turn on a rapid charger.

Even if there are enough chargers, you'd need one for nearly every parking space. There would need to be massive upgrades to the national grid and substantial substations, at each service area, just to cope with the power demands.

I know of a 'rapid' charge installation locally. The first EV to connect gets a good charging rate, but connect to the other charge points and the charge capacity is shared with what's left over in the power supply.

The company installing it, couldn't possibly finance a new power supply, to have 4 fast charging points. Just wouldn't be viable. I understand this type of installation is quite common, to cope with a limited power supply.
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      01-17-2020, 05:35 PM   #5
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Well... I work in the forecourt business. We are one of the leading investors in EV charging and H2 fuelling.

Local grid capacity is increasingly a problem - we're doing OK with 50kW units, although most forecourts are limited to 2 of them.

150kW is a little more challenging and bills start escalating. And that's just for single units.

In some locations, the first station to get 150kW will be the only one in the locality who can have it, once you get into 350kW chargers... you could power a small village on that kind of feed!

Costs are crazy, too - a 50kW single charger (inc. installation) will usually run you £60-£80k. A 150kW charger will be up to 1/4 million... IF the grid can cope. If the main grid feed is on the wrong side of a major trunk road or motorway, you can be in for a bill of millions to get the feed to you.

As for the holiday weekend - this is one of the big examples I use to represent the capacity challenges. Many EV evangelists will point to their home charger and how few people need on the road rapid charging... I point to Exeter services on any Friday afternoon / evening when it's not snowing or tipping down with rain and everyone wants to get to their holiday home / grab a weekend away.

These drivers will have started the day with a full charge and be desperate by the time they get to Exeter. Unless you start building small modular nuclear reactors to kick in at peak demand times, people could be waiting hours for a free charger.

There's a view in the energy industry (note: not an oil company - a provider of integrated energy solutions!) that BEV technology is a useful stepping stone to H2. Much of the tech. and development is shared, but you swap out half a tonne of batteries for a fuel cell and 10kg H2 tank.
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      01-17-2020, 06:00 PM   #6
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And we still read folks saying "put a charger on every lamp post, the power is already there".

Many don't grasp the energy density in a simple litre of petrol or diesel.

Electricity seems to be simply 'electric'. "Why can't I up the charge rate on my domestic ring main?" Never mind they may want cup of tea from a 3kW kettle at the same time.

We had lots of talk about the 'hydrogen economy', but it's gone rather quiet. That also requires massive infrastructure.
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      01-17-2020, 06:07 PM   #7
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In some ways H2 is easier. Obviously, it's not as efficient as just charging a battery, but it does have an energy density advantage - 5kg of H2 will take you around 300-400 miles in a Toyota Mirai at a cost equivalent to a 50mpg diesel.

You need a hefty power feed and a good water supply, but we are currently making H2 on site at 4 filling stations in the UK. The MET have circa 60 Mirais in use today - and do some long distance work with them, filling at our H2 installations.
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      01-18-2020, 01:31 AM   #8
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This could be the future: https://www.smart-energy.com/industr...ty-of-glasgow/
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      01-18-2020, 06:00 AM   #9
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Same problem as any battery we currently have... reliance on a relatively rare and expensive metal.
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      01-18-2020, 06:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
And we still read folks saying "put a charger on every lamp post, the power is already there".

Many don't grasp the energy density in a simple litre of petrol or diesel.

Electricity seems to be simply 'electric'. "Why can't I up the charge rate on my domestic ring main?" Never mind they may want cup of tea from a 3kW kettle at the same time.

We had lots of talk about the 'hydrogen economy', but it's gone rather quiet. That also requires massive infrastructure.
TBF the charger in lamppost thing is happening in some places. Liverpool council being one of them. They're not in every post, but they are in key areas. Other thing is they're limited to residents and I think only about 6a.

What's needed is a solid mix of infrastructure, both rapid and slow. If people are confident in being able to plug in at slow Destination chargers it reduces the demand on rapid charge network a lot. And honestly, banning phevs from free to use chargers would also make a big difference. Car park I was in in Manchester yesterday has 6 free charge bays all occupied by phevs at 8am, with the same ones still there at 4 when I left. If I was driving a BEV I'd be annoyed. Even the slowest charging PHEV would be done in about 3 hours.
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      01-18-2020, 07:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrolpusher View Post
Same problem as any battery we currently have... reliance on a relatively rare and expensive metal.
Same problem as any moving vehicle. If they can, as currently being trialled, have a similar effect with Iron as opposed to Tungsten - it’ll be a game changer.
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      01-18-2020, 07:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebk View Post
TBF the charger in lamppost thing is happening in some places. Liverpool council being one of them. They're not in every post, but they are in key areas. Other thing is they're limited to residents and I think only about 6a.

What's needed is a solid mix of infrastructure, both rapid and slow. If people are confident in being able to plug in at slow Destination chargers it reduces the demand on rapid charge network a lot. And honestly, banning phevs from free to use chargers would also make a big difference. Car park I was in in Manchester yesterday has 6 free charge bays all occupied by phevs at 8am, with the same ones still there at 4 when I left. If I was driving a BEV I'd be annoyed. Even the slowest charging PHEV would be done in about 3 hours.
Takes almost 4hrs to fully charge the 330e at a charging station (well mine does anyway)
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      01-18-2020, 07:44 AM   #13
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Some real post it note rage right there!!
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      01-18-2020, 08:00 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cranester1983 View Post
Same problem as any moving vehicle. If they can, as currently being trialled, have a similar effect with Iron as opposed to Tungsten - it’ll be a game changer.
That’s like saying if we could run a car on water instead of petrol though!
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      01-18-2020, 08:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by petrolpusher View Post
That’s like saying if we could run a car on water instead of petrol though!
It’s not though. It’s an active source of research and they’ve already proven the concept - scaling it down in size to be able to fit in a car is the next challenge. It’s not pie in the sky.
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      01-18-2020, 10:03 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Cranester1983 View Post
It’s not though. It’s an active source of research and they’ve already proven the concept - scaling it down in size to be able to fit in a car is the next challenge. It’s not pie in the sky.
Wouldn't hold my breath - how many times do we hear of a revolutionary battery technology? - it's almost an annual thing to be shown a 'game changing' battery, yet we're still stuffing half a tonne of 30 year old battery tech. into our cars.

They haven't even tried to use iron in place of tungsten and are years away from even prototyping the tungsten cell in anything practical.

Another dead end, I'm guessing.
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      01-18-2020, 11:33 AM   #17
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The concern I have is government policy and how it's trying to push people towards BEV and away from diesel, and yet they must know the infrastructure just isn't there.

We are fortunate in that we have good salaries and can afford to be a multi car household, and I now can't see us not having at least a hybrid or BEV in the household, but a BEV absolutely couldn't be our only car.

Now that a hybrids are getting to a better range they do feel like a better option for me. Compromised in some ways, but a better all round solution for some time to come.
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      01-18-2020, 04:28 PM   #18
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Some real post it note rage right there!!
😊
The four exclamation marks and steep learning curve comment says a lot
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      01-19-2020, 02:22 AM   #19
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New to this charging PHEV thing and normally only charge mine overnight at home so is the charger in question marked as a Rapid Charge point only?.

Purchased a charge cable so I can charge mine at my local shopping complex while doing a tad of shopping.

So are there charge points us Hybrid drivers aren’t allowed to use as I’d be pretty pissed if someone left a post it note on my car with a condescending message like this one.
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      01-19-2020, 03:18 AM   #20
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I remember working on the construction of a laboratory and test facility in Berkshire for a revolutionary new form of energy for driving cars . The basic was to use hydrogen to directly generate electricity via an electrochemical reaction.
They called it a fuel cell, that was back in 1967. Wonder what became of that idea.
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      01-20-2020, 02:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnzieÂ’s BM View Post
New to this charging PHEV thing and normally only charge mine overnight at home so is the charger in question marked as a Rapid Charge point only?.

Purchased a charge cable so I can charge mine at my local shopping complex while doing a tad of shopping.

So are there charge points us Hybrid drivers aren’t allowed to use as I’d be pretty pissed if someone left a post it note on my car with a condescending message like this one.
Need to remember the BEV community are not faultless. A few months back I stayed at a Marriott overnight. On arrival a ICE was in one of the 2 charging bays. A Tesla Model S was in the other. I wrote a polite note asking the ICE to call me when they moved (which they did, very apologetically). I plugged in and when charged came back about 10pm to move my car. The Tesla was still there, fully charged. It was still there in the morning.

I don't have a big issue using the motorway chargers and the like. Ultimately first come first served. I wouldn't however leave my car all day when it only needed a 3-4 hour charge. It's a strange situation, most of the time I see electric chargers they aren't being used. But when they are people get all arsey and privileged.

I guess if you've not planned your journey very well and your BEV is flat you might get annoyed at a PHEV in the bay.

An emerging situation....
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      01-20-2020, 03:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by tricky6 View Post
I guess if you've not planned your journey very well and your BEV is flat you might get annoyed at a PHEV in the bay.

An emerging situation....
Found the section in Harry's Garage, (I-Pace review) where he's trying to get a simple top up charge, very interesting. If this is the issue at present, there will have to be some major changes, if we are really serious for EV charging in the future.

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