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      07-18-2015, 08:07 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
You have no idea how painful it was typing out that last one. Lord help me, I promise I'll never do that again!
You should get an award if you typed all that on a phone.
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      07-18-2015, 08:23 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
I agree and then to your point, we should accept it and move forward.

Almost everyone knows there is a problem. It's part of the human condition. Surely you know that racism and slavery wasn't born in with the United States. But what i want to know most is what should be done about it? Do you think the current programs in place are beneficial or even help to remove racism? I'd really like to know because i'd like to not be considered a racist based only on my skin color.
I believe I've said countless times that not all white people are racist. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the majority of white people are not racist. However, racist or not, white people have massively benefited from the systems which have been in place since this country was founded. Far more than black Americans.

You asked the million dollar question. What to do about it? How do you level the playing field. It all starts with people. Why should someone named Sara get more job offers than someone named Tamika when both use the identical resume?

Has the hiring manager formed an opinion about the black sounding name Tamika? Has this person maybe had a bad past experience working with a black person? Maybe they're getting pressure from their boss to not hire anyone with an ethnic sounding name.

It's all speculation until someone steps forward and gives a answer to why things like this happen.
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      07-18-2015, 08:42 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MindControl View Post
SonnyJack I don't know what nationality or race you are but I do know you can't talk about race and "white privilege" with some people, probably best to leave it alone because it's going no where.

https://thsppl.com/i-racist-538512462265
Thank you for sharing this.

God bless.
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      07-18-2015, 08:49 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
You should get an award if you typed all that on a phone.
Not a chance in hell. I probably couldn't have even typed this response on my phone!
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      07-19-2015, 09:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
I believe I've said countless times that not all white people are racist. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the majority of white people are not racist. However, racist or not, white people have massively benefited from the systems which have been in place since this country was founded. Far more than black Americans.

You asked the million dollar question. What to do about it? How do you level the playing field. It all starts with people. Why should someone named Sara get more job offers than someone named Tamika when both use the identical resume?

Has the hiring manager formed an opinion about the black sounding name Tamika? Has this person maybe had a bad past experience working with a black person? Maybe they're getting pressure from their boss to not hire anyone with an ethnic sounding name.

It's all speculation until someone steps forward and gives a answer to why things like this happen.
I'm not trying to start another long winded discussion by either of us, but I must comment that what is highlighted is a bit misleading. The way it is written makes it sound like someone dropped a pile of dust on the North American continent, poured water on it, and the "systems" magically appeared. In reality a lot of bold people, white Europeans for the most part, created this country, fought hard for it, and sacrificed greatly for it. The "systems" weren't built to not benefit non-white people, the "systems" were created to benefit "people" most of who were white Europeans, being the majority of people that started the US. So, now in 2015, to make some claim that the "systems" were created (somehow) to only benefit white people and no one else is a bit disingenuous.
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      07-19-2015, 10:15 AM   #72
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fought hard sacrificed greatly. The shit wasn't theirs in the first place. They murdered, lied, and stole this country. Lol
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      07-19-2015, 11:23 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'm not trying to start another long winded discussion by either of us, but I must comment that what is highlighted is a bit misleading. The way it is written makes it sound like someone dropped a pile of dust on the North American continent, poured water on it, and the "systems" magically appeared. In reality a lot of bold people, white Europeans for the most part, created this country, fought hard for it, and sacrificed greatly for it. The "systems" weren't built to not benefit non-white people, the "systems" were created to benefit "people" most of who were white Europeans, being the majority of people that started the US. So, now in 2015, to make some claim that the "systems" were created (somehow) to only benefit white people and no one else is a bit disingenuous.
This country has a nearly 240yr history and white Americans have been able to fully participate during this time. Unfortunately, black Americans have been here just as long, but have only been permitted to fully participate for fewer years than I have lived. I'll turn 50 in November.

And since there just wasn't a flipping of the switch that brought blacks to equal footing with whites, you could say blacks have had even fewer years of full participation.

Black people as a group sacrificed as much as any for this country, but have received far less in return due to the systems put in place to maintain second class status.

Read the link that MindControl posted. Maybe give you a different point of view. Or not. Up to you.
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      07-19-2015, 12:46 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by kprocivic View Post
fought hard sacrificed greatly. The shit wasn't theirs in the first place. They murdered, lied, and stole this country. Lol
You giving back your property? LOL
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      07-19-2015, 01:01 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
This country has a nearly 240yr history and white Americans have been able to fully participate during this time. Unfortunately, black Americans have been here just as long, but have only been permitted to fully participate for fewer years than I have lived. I'll turn 50 in November.

And since there just wasn't a flipping of the switch that brought blacks to equal footing with whites, you could say blacks have had even fewer years of full participation.

Black people as a group sacrificed as much as any for this country, but have received far less in return due to the systems put in place to maintain second class status.

Read the link that MindControl posted. Maybe give you a different point of view. Or not. Up to you.
Yeah, I read it. Of the 30 or so statements I could pick, this one kind of sums it up:

What they are affected by are attacks on their own character. To my aunt, the suggestion that “people in The North are racist” is an attack on her as a racist. She is unable to differentiate her participation within a racist system (upwardly mobile, not racially profiled, able to move to White suburbs, etc.) from an accusation that she, individually, is a racist. Without being able to make that differentiation, White people in general decide to vigorously defend their own personal non-racism, or point out that it doesn't exist because they don't see it.

This passage basically says if you are white you are a racist by merely participating in American life ("the system") and a white person can't see they are racist by participating in the (racist) "system" because they are white. The passage is just stupid and nonsensical. If that is the way you think about racism, then it is not possible to resolve it.

Good luck.
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      07-19-2015, 01:01 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You giving back your property? LOL
No he'll just talk a lot of smack about how the Native got fucked. And he'll do it all from the comfort of his home that sits on land which once belong to some Native tribe. White people are so bad yet non-whites flood in droves to our countries. Gee I wonder why that is? Except for a few East Asian countries, most countries ran by people of "color" are damn near unlivable because people runnin them are too dumb to sweep a floor yet alone run a country.
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      07-19-2015, 01:03 PM   #77
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Who came up concept for Race and Racial Classifications and for What Reason?
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      07-19-2015, 01:57 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You giving back your property? LOL
My property that I paid for to have, why would I give back MY property. I paid for it. Let's not getget into homesteading laws and how people of color couldn't homestead. So that brings us back to the point of why I paid for something, and would want to give it back.
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      07-19-2015, 03:43 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
I believe I've said countless times that not all white people are racist. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the majority of white people are not racist. However, racist or not, white people have massively benefited from the systems which have been in place since this country was founded. Far more than black Americans.

You asked the million dollar question. What to do about it? How do you level the playing field. It all starts with people. Why should someone named Sara get more job offers than someone named Tamika when both use the identical resume?

Has the hiring manager formed an opinion about the black sounding name Tamika? Has this person maybe had a bad past experience working with a black person? Maybe they're getting pressure from their boss to not hire anyone with an ethnic sounding name.

It's all speculation until someone steps forward and gives a answer to why things like this happen.
By people i assume you mean white people, no? I don't see how you could mean anything else with the example you stated.

As to the HR department and hiring practices. It's nearly impossible to answer this question honestly without being labeled a racist. A mere differing opinion these days is often considered as racism. I'd argue that people also pass over applicants who's names are; Rufus, Apple, Billy-Bob, Rain, Sunflower. Should i move to china and be upset when my application for employment gets passed over because it's an anglo name instead of an Asian name? People like to interact with people with familiar names. That's not an American racist issue, that's a world wide human issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Yeah, I read it. Of the 30 or so statements I could pick, this one kind of sums it up:

What they are affected by are attacks on their own character. To my aunt, the suggestion that “people in The North are racist” is an attack on her as a racist. She is unable to differentiate her participation within a racist system (upwardly mobile, not racially profiled, able to move to White suburbs, etc.) from an accusation that she, individually, is a racist. Without being able to make that differentiation, White people in general decide to vigorously defend their own personal non-racism, or point out that it doesn't exist because they don't see it.

This passage basically says if you are white you are a racist by merely participating in American life ("the system") and a white person can't see they are racist by participating in the (racist) "system" because they are white. The passage is just stupid and nonsensical. If that is the way you think about racism, then it is not possible to resolve it.

Good luck.
That's what i got out of it, if you're white, your racist. But then maybe thats the point of the article, to explain that white people will never understand that by simply existing, they are racist. It has some valid points, but the following statements caused it to lose much credibility, with me anyway.

Quote:
Racism is a cop severing the spine of an innocent man. It is a 12 year old child being shot for playing with a toy gun....

Black children learn this when their parents give them “The Talk.” When they are sat down at the age of 5 or so and told that their best friend’s father is not sick, and not in a bad mood — he just doesn't want his son playing with you.

People are dying because we are supporting a racist system that justifies White people killing Black people.

I’m going to try to speak kindly, and softly, but that’s gonna be hard. Because it’s getting harder and harder for me to think about the protection of White people’s feelings when White people don't seem to care at all about the loss of so many Black lives.
Quite frankly, i don't think white people don't need to understand the plight of the black Americans. They just need to know what black America wants them to do to make up for their ancestors' past trespasses. America was built by corrupt, greedy, european white men. This nation was stolen from Native Americans and industries and white wealth was built on the backs of black men and women. ....But today's white people didn't participate in laying that foundation. They didn't have a choice to be born into this broken society, but here they are, part of the white "problem" and all they want to know is what change black Americans want to see in society that will end institutionalized racism to their satisfaction.

We all know that racism on an individual level will never die, so what i want to know what we can do as a society so that i'm not thought of as a racist by my skin color?

And don't tell me it starts with people, put some thought into what you think needs to be done on a societal level; because you're never going to change individuals though legislation. Especially when parents are sitting their children down at age 5 and telling them that their friends parents don't want their kids to play with them because of their skin color.
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      07-19-2015, 03:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
By people i assume you mean white people, no? I don't see how you could mean anything else with the example you stated.

As to the HR department and hiring practices. It's nearly impossible to answer this question honestly without being labeled a racist. A mere differing opinion these days is often considered as racism. I'd argue that people also pass over applicants who's names are; Rufus, Apple, Billy-Bob, Rain, Sunflower. Should i move to china and be upset when my application for employment gets passed over because it's an anglo name instead of an Asian name? People like to interact with people with familiar names. That's not an American racist issue, that's a world wide human issue.




That's what i got out of it, if you're white, your racist. But then maybe thats the point of the article, to explain that white people will never understand that by simply existing, they are racist. It has some valid points, but the following statements caused it to lose much credibility, with me anyway.



Quite frankly, i don't think white people don't need to understand the plight of the black Americans. They just need to know what black America wants them to do to make up for their ancestors' past trespasses. America was built by corrupt, greedy, european white men. This nation was stolen from Native Americans and industries and white wealth was built on the backs of black men and women. ....But today's white people didn't participate in laying that foundation. They didn't have a choice to be born into this broken society, but here they are, part of the white "problem" and all they want to know is what change black Americans want to see in society that will end institutionalized racism to their satisfaction.

We all know that racism on an individual level will never die, so what i want to know what we can do as a society so that i'm not thought of as a racist by my skin color?

And don't tell me it starts with people, put some thought into what you think needs to be done on a societal level; because you're never going to change individuals though legislation. Especially when parents are sitting their children down at age 5 and telling them that their friends parents don't want their kids to play with them because of their skin color.
Actually for the most part America was built on the backs of Irish, Italian, Eastern European, and Chinese labores. They made up the brunt of factory workers and builders.
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      07-19-2015, 05:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Darth Federer View Post
Wow. I truly feel sorry for you. I think you've been completely manipulated by white leftist who rely on the monolithic black voting block.

...
Do you believe that Sonny is a black person?

I can understand thinking a white person might have been or be manipulated into espousing an extremely tolerant, "bleeding heart" if you will, point of view re: racism, bias and discrimination, but one would have to really know that person well to know whether that's actually so.

With black folks, it's a different matter altogether. Black folks don't need to be manipulated into having any particular view on the matters of racism, bias and discrimination. They have for so long in U.S. been the objects of those attitudes and behaviors that I honestly don't know if there is one black citizen in U.S. over the age of 30 who has not at least once in their life directly experienced racism and/or its effects. I'm quite sure there's not one black person in U.S. who doesn't know someone who's directly experienced racism.

I tend to liken what blacks in America experience by way of racism to the weather; it's, IMO, like living under a cloud and not knowing when it's going to rain. It might rain; it might not. It just depends on a number of things, but one knows that one can't prevent the rain from falling to begin with and can't stop it from raining once it begins, and one knows that when it does, one will get wet. One also knows that there are both cloudy places in America where it isn't raining, places that aren't cloudy at that moment, and there are people -- likely not minorities -- who never see cloudy skies.

All the best.
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      07-19-2015, 06:11 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
Actually for the most part America was built on the backs of Irish, Italian, Eastern European, and Chinese labores. They made up the brunt of factory workers and builders.
Yes, northern industrial America.

Textile America and a fair amount of southern American wealth would likely not have happened without early American slave labor. I'm no expert, but recalling what i learned in high school history, cotton was a substantial export of the US and it was at that time necessary to pick cotton by hand.
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      07-19-2015, 07:36 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by phrozen06 View Post
Who came up concept for Race and Racial Classifications and for What Reason?
No idea if this is accurate or not, but the attached pdf, though a bit long, gives an explanation. I believe pg 4 is where the writer gives one possibility.
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File Type: pdf What_Is_White_Supremacy_Martinez.pdf (131.5 KB, 1067 views)
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      07-19-2015, 08:09 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
No idea if this is accurate or not, but the attached pdf, though a bit long, gives an explanation. I believe pg 4 is where the writer gives one possibility.
Comrade,

I bet "Betita" Martinez would love your BMW...LOL


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      07-20-2015, 03:10 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack
Against my better judgment I'll play along a bit longer:

1) You wrote...."Do I have one or two black friends? - I addressed that question as being a racist comment. And it was satirical none the less."

If you say so. However, if you had one or two close black friends you would probably already know about white privilege and systemic racism.

...

The above quote is also what brought on my comment about the clean slate. You bring up a few token examples of black success and that leads you to believing that all are equal. Unfortunately, nothing could be farther from the truth. A perfect example lies in the criminal justice system. How is it that by some accounts 85% of prison population is black, while most crime in America is committed by whites?

...

You have countless black first offenders in prison for decades due to crack cocaine, not to mention the impact this has had on the black family, yet the privileged white FBI agent whose father was a retired cop, got three years. This is systemic racism.

Did you know that there is more white on white crime than there is black on black crime? Have you even heard the phrase "white on white crime?" I sure haven't. The media loves talking about black on black crime, yet they never, ever, discuss white on white crime, nor ask the white communities what they are doing to fight the issue. This is systemic racism.

Remember that Bundy guy in Arizona who has been basically stealing from the government for decades. Remember the standoff out at his ranch? That would be the standoff where white citizens pointed semi-automatic rifles at law enforcement? Remember that? Not a damned thing happened to those "protestors" and the government even backed down. Remember Ferguson, MO? Peaceful protestors faced police in full riot gear; had sniper rifles pointed at them, were gassed and arrested. This is systemic racism.

Have you heard of Greenwood? Google it if you like. The area was known in 1921 as "Black Wall Street." It was an extremely successful area in which blacks had built a thriving business, and accumulated wealth far superior to many whites in the area. Know what happened to it? White folks got angry and burned the entire city to the ground, killing many. They even used WW1 airplanes to bomb American citizens. Did you know that? Then guess what happened. They rebuilt and thrived again! In the end it was the interstate system which ended Greenwood's prosperity. The government decided to run the interstate straight through Greenwood. This was systemic racism as well.

Blacks seem to congregate in cities. Do you know why? Housing rules from as far back as the early 1900's forced blacks into segregated housing. In later years, blacks were prevented from buying homes in what we today call the suburbs. These rules forced blacks into large urban cities as the only available housing options. Fewer job opportunities, and little to no wealth accumulation has perpetuated this situation. This was/is systemic racism.

...

I could go on and on and on, but to what avail?

You said...."The world is full of injustice(s), none of which can be erased or wiped clean from the blackboard as historical fact, so either a person can wallow in sorrow that it happened to them, or they can chose to wipe the issue clean from their mind and not let it influence their thoughts and actions moving forward."

That's another WOW statement! Wiping the issue clear from my mind does nothing to address the issue of racism or privilege. I can't change either. Only white people like you and Tony20009 are capable of doing that. When I bring up a simple truth, you perceive me as the angry black man and nothing is accomplished.

For change to occur, those persons of the privileged class must be willing to speak up about the change necessary to improve society. How long does it take? I have no idea. But what I do know is that brushing it off as somehow unimportant, ensures no change will happen.

Systemic/structural racism (the terms are synonymous) does not mean it's impossible for blacks to advance, just means the path toward success is paved with more obstacles than for whites.
One of the things that confounds, at least in my mind, discussions about racism is income/wealth. For example, one might be guilty of elitism rather than racism. When two individuals interact, if they are of different races, how would an observer know the difference?

Red:
Sonny, I hate that you've made it relevant for me to write the first part of the next sentence -- it reads like a lame platitude -- but here goes....I have some similarly situated (socioeconomically) black friends and some black friends who aren't, not even close, so situated. I can tell you for a fact that they aren't reason I'm aware racism against blacks and other minorities exists, and they aren't the reason I know that whites endure the ill effects of racism less so than do minorities in U.S.

One need not have minority friends to know that sort of thing; one need only bother to take an objective look around. The thing is that one also need not have minority friends to determine whether racism is systemic/structural. The PDF document you provided seems to suggest that the racism we see today is indeed structural. It's authors, IMO, are able to make that claim on the basis of two things:
  1. The behaviors they observed.
  2. Asserting that intent doesn't matter.
I don't deny that racist acts happen. I categorically believe, however, that intent is critical. Accordingly, I don't accept that claim that racism is systemic/structural in all its manifestations in America.

Purple:
I think it possible and plausible that in some organizations discrimination against minorities is structural, the Ferguson, MO police for example, but I think those organizations are the exceptions, not the norm. I think that because the news organizations typically don't bother to report at all the daily instances of entirely fair treatment by people of one race toward people of another.

Unfortunately, news to the effect of "nothing's amiss" isn't what folks want to know about. No matter one's race, one doesn't turn on the news to find out what's gone right today, what problems didn't arise, and what won't be "a mess" tomorrow. The whole point of news is to inform people about things that concern them. That news organizations feel "black on black" crime is something of which we should be concerned isn't disconcerting to me. That they do, by their insouciant take toward it, think "white on white" crime is nothing to worry about is disconcerting.

Now do I actually care about the race of the parties involved in a criminal act? Frankly, no, I don't. In fact, I don't actually need to know their race(s). I suspect that racists don't at all care about "black on black" crime; more likely is that they think "fine, let blacks rob from, kill and maim themselves." The thing to be concerned about is (1) what is deemed a criminal act, and (2) whether criminal acts are on the rise or decline as a percentage of the population.

Green:
As goes what's deemed a criminal act, a related aspect is how crimes are punished. You specifically mentioned crack cocaine use/possession. There's little question in my mind that the minimum punishments judges are allowed to levy for crack-related crimes, as compared with those for non-crack-cocaine-related ones, seem to be an example of systemic racism set in place by the U.S. Congress. (http://www.ussc.gov/report-cocaine-a...ncing-policy-5)

President Obama signed the Fair Sentencing Act in 2010. Was there structural racist intent in the creation of the initial federal sentencing guidelines? Was there structural racism in play from the 1980s to 2010 when nobody did anything about the disparity?

I don't really know the answers to those questions, but I know that the disparity did exist and it's impacts were clearly visible along racial lines. Why is it that black cocaine users seem(ed) to prefer crack and whites seem to prefer powder cocaine? I have no idea, but I doubt there was anything racially motivated behind it.

Orange:
I mentioned the preceding mainly to offer an example of a set of events and outcomes that can very easily seem to be illustrative of racism, but that may not at all be that. As with elitism, race may not have a damn thing to do with it.

Sonny, you wrote that you can't do anything to change racist attitudes. Well, I think there is something you and other minorities can do and that's refrain from expressing the same sorts of knee-jerk reactions to the events you see in our country. Those unthinking responses and outcries are exactly the sorts of behavior minorities accuse whites of displaying,and it doesn't matter who displays them, they don't help matters.

Asserting to a great many white folks that their behavior is racist is quite hurtful to them, particularly when they know in their hearts that their behavior isn't racially motivated. Upon being the target of such a claim, most anyone, regardless of their race, will recoil, deny the claim, and form negative opinions about the person/people who made it, and those opinions will carry into the future when others make the claim. The accusation of racism needs, like bullets, to be used sparingly. To do otherwise diminishes the merit of the claim and the presumed credibility of the persons using it.

There are without question acts that result from racist leanings. I know that just as Sonny does. I also know that there are plenty that no matter how racist they may seem, they aren't. I'm just saying take the time to figure out which truly are and which aren't before the claim is made. From what I see, I don't know that that time is accorded as often as it should be.

Pink:
I don't know if you are an angry black man or not. However, anyone, black, white, Latino, Asian, whatever, who thinks there's anything "simple" about racism and race issues in America has a distorted view of the matter, one that understates so many things about it.

As for doing something about racism, well, I already noted what I think a major portion of the solution approach should be. (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=50) The action items I listed at the start of my earlier post are ones that individuals, individuals who give a damn and want to do something to correct the situation, can do. I know it works because they are things my own parents, two people who are plenty old enough to recall days of lots of "white privilege" and unquestionably systemic racism, things my own parents did and that resulted in me not having anything like a racist view behind my thoughts and deeds.

I would ask you if you think racially motivated bias in America is a one-way street?

I ask you that because I'm pretty close to certain that it's not. I'll mention one big example. When Obama was first elected, I asked a number of black folks if they voted for him (in the Democratic primaries) largely because he's a black man, and would have pretty much regardless (barring something incredibly extreme) of his position on the issues. The answer I got without exception was "yes."

Now that they answered "yes" doesn't shock me in the least. Let's be real; Obama is the first black man black folks have ever seen receive the presidential nomination and have a real chance of winning the election. The euphoria accompanying that (in both Obama's elections), along with the opportunity to play a role in making history, is no small thing. Moreover, it's not exactly an emotion with which members of a majority race/ethnicity can empathize. In another situation, folks might say "you had to be there." As goes why blacks voted for for Obama simply because he is black, is something I think one needs to be a minority to fully understand, although black or not. Like it or not, most white folks just don't have the first idea of what it's actually like to live as a racial minority in U.S. (From my travels to many countries, I know and have seen that there is discrimination on a number of irrational bases in quite a few, but the racism we have in U.S. -- based strictly on skin color and physical appearance -- is not the same.)

Be that as it may and despite my "getting it" from an intellectual standpoint, sympathizing if you will, I could not help but think I was witnessing the "pot calling the kettle black." It's hard for me to say with 100% that's what I was indeed observing, but in asking about how they voted in the primary, I hoped to get a sense of whether Obama's race was a key factor for blacks' choosing him over Mrs. Clinton. I wasn't as interested in the Presidential race because the fact is that nobody gets elected President solely on the minority, black minority specifically, vote. (Interestingly, I suspect one could get elected president on the female vote if women were as "of one mind" to the same degree blacks are.)

But I digress....when it comes to what can be done in U.S. to hasten the decline in racism, I think the "angle" that resonates best with U.S. citizens has not been used to it's best advantage. That angle is the productivity and economic angle.

So often I hear the line about the ethical and moral wrongs of racism. Well, I'm going to say what is probably impolitic to say: white folks, particularly those who feel as though they are open minded, just don't care enough about the morality and ethics of racism as it manifests itself in American culture, as a nation. I don't say that because I know it to be so, or because I don't care about them. I write that because I see plenty that U.S., as a nation does and did that strikes me as ethically wrong and nobody's making much of a stink about changing those policies on the basis of their ethical merit.

Among the most contentious of America's policies that seems ethically and morally wrong to me is our unquestioning faith and support for Israel since that country was created. I don't care what the geopolitical situation is in Israel today, there's no way in hell that anyone can credibly argue that when Britain divested itself of that area of the Middle East it was ethically "right" to give the Palestinians nothing and it wasn't ethically right for the U.S. not to pressure the U.K. into making some sort of provision that granted the Palestinians (Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Muslims) some land they could call their own.

I didn't mention Israel to get into the geopolitics of the Middle East. I mentioned it only to point out an example of U.S. citizens and policy makers great disregard for what appears to be ethically right and great favoritism for what makes U.S. wealthy and powerful. Anti-racism advocates need to recognize that for better or worse, U.S. is a "might is right" kind of country and right now, money is might.

Quite simply, white folks mostly don't ever feel or see, especially on a personal level, any negative impacts from racism and discrimination. What that means that if we are, as a nation, going to all but eradicate racism, white folks have to be convinced that the negative impacts can be felt by them. I don't mean felt via violence and destruction, but felt and observed as a consequence of changing nothing.

I earlier wrote that racism works like the weather. Well, I meant that in more ways than one. Consider global warming; one could liken racism to global warming in terms of how motivated whites are to deal with it. I mean really, how concerned are folks about global warming that they are willing to give up revenues and/or incur greater expense to mitigate it? Seeing as there's little about it that immediately affects most folks' lives on a day to day basis, people care about in the abstract, but they (the people who influence what is and isn't done structurally) aren't willing to endure less disposable cash to fix it. Racism works like global warming in that sense, but it doesn't have to if fairness advocates were to show that there's a real cost, even at an individual level, to racism. I happen to believe there is, but I'm not in a position to lead the study to determine whether I'm right.

Blue:
I think it entirely unfair, Sonny, that you minimize the examples offered by referring to them as tokens. Those individuals are at the extremes of their given careers. Most people don't rise to that level no matter what be their race. That there are a few minorities who have risen to that level clearly shows to me that it's possible for minorities to do so. Make no mistake, those minorities could not and would not have risen to those heights without the support of white folks along the way to "superstar" levels.

Calling those people "tokens" diminishes the significance and message of both the minorities who are high achievers and the non-minorities who support them. Labeling those individuals' as "tokens" suggests that those folks who might see them and their supporters as role models is detrimental, antithetical even, to the very aim of abolishing racism and its effects for at its heart, racism is unfair.

One can't dispose of one inequity by employing another. To do that is tantamount to just choosing against whom/what one will discriminate "this week." That's no better place than the one we are in now, at least in my mind.

(I am confident Sonny means "token example," and not that those people are tokens. I merely didn't write "token example" each time.)

Brown, Blue, and Pink (at the end):
Discriminatory housing practices are a fact of history. No doubt about it. That said, there's far more to why minorities live in cities. Chalking it up to racism exclusively, in this day and age more so than historically, is a gross oversimplification of the matter.
These days, I think it more disconcerting is the gentrification trend that is affecting cities like Washington, D.C. There was an elderly black couple who lived in the row house at the end of the block in Dupont Circle, D.C. (an upscale neighborhood now, but not as much so prior to the 1990s) where I lived for a time. They'd lived there since the 1950s.

They moved away because the property taxes got too high for them to afford. I don't think the property tax structure in D.C. is geared toward driving out blacks. Though I don't own property everywhere else, I suspect property tax works about the same everywhere: it's based on land/building values.

What makes property values go up? Quite literally, white folks moving into a neighborhood makes property values go up. Regarding my street in Dupont, there's no way around the fact that the white folks who moved in, myself included, have considerably more disposable income than did that elderly couple who were retired by the 1980s when I moved into the area. The folks who bought homes there also upgraded them considerably. Indeed, the the "fixer upper" state of the buildings and yards played a meaningful role in why I and others bought there; it was cheaper than buying something that already had been renovated.

Now I have a few black colleagues and professional associates and who live in what's called the "Gold Coast" section of D.C. I'm sure they are well aware that their homes and the accompanying land aren't any less "posh" than is mine, which is in a small part of the "Embassy Row" part of D.C. I'd bet their property taxes are lower than mine and it doesn't surprise me that they are lower because their neighborhood is predominantly black and thus the property values are lower.

Now you can call that racist if you want, but I'll bet that my colleagues aren't chomping at the bit to pay more in property tax. What's more important is that the people I reference are very successful professionals. Earlier, Sonny, you wrote about the token nature of the accomplishments of Ms. Rice et al and I wrote of how the matter isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

My black colleagues, heck a great many of the blacks who live in the D.C. Metropolitan area, are fine examples of largely nameless individuals -- identical in every way I can identify (good and bad) to their high-achieving white counterparts -- who go about their lives and who have found themselves able to match or exceed the success levels of most people, not just blacks or other minorities. I don't know about where you live, but in the D.C. area, there are literally tens of thousands of such people. Now one might think of Ms. Rice or General Powell as a "token" example, but those tens of thousands of accomplished folks, who happen to be black, just don't seem to me to be token examples of anything.

[I'm not going to put in a conclusion section largely because this post is too long already for some folks and I really am "over" hearing about how long my posts are. So there's a small crumb for the "your posts are too long" crowd. LOL]

All the best.
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      07-20-2015, 01:35 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Yeah, I read it. Of the 30 or so statements I could pick, this one kind of sums it up:

What they are affected by are attacks on their own character. To my aunt, the suggestion that “people in The North are racist” is an attack on her as a racist. She is unable to differentiate her participation within a racist system (upwardly mobile, not racially profiled, able to move to White suburbs, etc.) from an accusation that she, individually, is a racist. Without being able to make that differentiation, White people in general decide to vigorously defend their own personal non-racism, or point out that it doesn't exist because they don't see it.

This passage basically says if you are white you are a racist by merely participating in American life ("the system") and a white person can't see they are racist by participating in the (racist) "system" because they are white. The passage is just stupid and nonsensical. If that is the way you think about racism, then it is not possible to resolve it.

Good luck.
I thought that part of the article was quite interesting as well. Not really sure that the author's point there is. Particularly telling was the reference to moving a child into a better school, which also happened to be a "whiter" school, as an example of participating in the racist system.

I also got the impression that the author was saying that any white person who participates in the the system (ie: moving their kid to a better school) is inherently racist; and the only way to not be racist would be to refuse to participate in such a system. What exactly does that mean? Intentionally keeping your child in an inferior school, this potentially limiting their future opportunities, just so that you can avoid the appearance of participating in, or endorsing, a racist system ?

If that is the expectation, then I think there is no hope for people like the author to be satisfied. Asking that white people refuse to try and do the best for their own kids in an attempt to level the playing field, does not seem like a reasonable approach to me. Hell, there are black people who work hard to get their kids into a better school, even while knowing that their child will have fewer classmates who are also black when they do so. Are those black people also participating in a racist system, and thus should be held accountable for even considering sending their kids there? Are they betraying their own race by trying to give their kids a better education?
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      07-20-2015, 01:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I thought that part of the article was quite interesting as well. Not really sure that the author's point there is. Particularly telling was the reference to moving a child into a better school, which also happened to be a "whiter" school, as an example of participating in the racist system.

I also got the impression that the author was saying that any white person who participates in the the system (ie: moving their kid to a better school) is inherently racist; and the only way to not be racist would be to refuse to participate in such a system. What exactly does that mean? Intentionally keeping your child in an inferior school, this potentially limiting their future opportunities, just so that you can avoid the appearance of participating in, or endorsing, a racist system ?

If that is the expectation, then I think there is no hope for people like the author to be satisfied. Asking that white people refuse to try and do the best for their own kids in an attempt to level the playing field, does not seem like a reasonable approach to me. Hell, there are black people who work hard to get their kids into a better school, even while knowing that their child will have fewer classmates who are also black when they do so. Are those black people also participating in a racist system, and thus should be held accountable for even considering sending their kids there? Are they betraying their own race by trying to give their kids a better education?
Great post. That's like asking a all star level athlete to play for an inferior team and work under and inferior training staff so that the scrubs under him might stand a chance at a podium finish. Sorry it does not work like that in the real world..
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      07-20-2015, 02:03 PM   #88
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I recently read an article about a woman with 7 kids who forgot one in her car which later died of heat exhaustion. A real heartbreaking tragedy. What struck me most was not the race of the person but the fact they had 7 kids. How would one ever think it's possible to raise 7 kids in this country, at least in today's world, and achieve any degree of quality of life for their kids and set them up for success?

My wife and I strongly debated having a 3rd child but settled on two. Many things factored into our discussions. I think some people refer to it as planning.

Now what I wont mention is the race of either myself or my wife. And there are plenty of low income white families with 7+ kids. So to me race or skin color has little to do with it. What factors far more into the success or failure of someone is the culture they are raised in. The environment shapes us more then the color of our skin.

Color of skin is easy to latch on to when you want to group people, but I've met entirely too many good people of every race, shape, religion, etc. to blanket any one group as this or that.

Of course, MTV catering to simpletons will focus on color rather then culture. Because it's far more PC to paint white people as the problem and pretend you are "progressive" in your approach to the issue then it is to dive into cultures which could cross all sorts of color lines and if done objectively, god forbid, point out the flaws in all of us including those complaining about oppression.
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