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      09-13-2015, 12:07 AM   #1
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Proving God

On 13-Sep-15, the H2 Channel will air a two hour show called Proving God.

I've not seen it before, and I have no idea what stance the show will take, but I will record it.

All the best.
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      09-14-2015, 06:18 AM   #2
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Oh boy. I hope it's not another "gap of the gods" argument.
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      09-14-2015, 09:35 AM   #3
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So, did anyone have a chance to watch it?
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      09-14-2015, 03:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
So, did anyone have a chance to watch it?
I haven't, but I see it in my list of recorded shows. I'll probably watch it sometime later in the week.

All the best.
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      09-14-2015, 03:16 PM   #5
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sounds like another fake "reality/documentary type show" with made up stories and twisting the truth.like Ancient aliens and all those fake tv shows.//..
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      09-14-2015, 03:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
sounds liek another fake "reality/documentary type show" with made up stories and twisting the truth.like Ancient aliens and all those fake tv shows.//..

Well, having not watched it, and being capable of doing so, I'll refrain from commenting on what it sounds like.

All the best.
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      09-14-2015, 03:37 PM   #7
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Didn't CNN have something like this as well? I didn't watch that either. . .
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      09-15-2015, 10:55 AM   #8
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I finally got round to watching the show. I found the value of the show greatest for the scope of efforts it depicts a wide variety of people and organizations undertaking to prove the existence of God. The range of scientific disciplines engaged in the search include astronomy/cosmology, archaeology, sociology, biology and psychology.

I found it refreshing that all of the researchers involved were objective and rational in their approach, and they were cognizant of what their discoveries do and do not prove with regard to God's existence. On multiple occasions, the researchers or narrator expressed how given findings could be used by theists or atheists to propone their respective beliefs. Perhaps the most surprising thing I learned from the show is that there may be a correlation between the Akashic Record and what we think of as God.

Not surprisingly, given that the show was produced and aired in U.S., the show focuses on legitimate and rigorous scientific efforts to prove God's verity within the context of Christian belief. The strong monotheistic bias of the discussion led me to wonder whether polytheists and predominantly polytheistic cultures engage in the same sorts of the debates and quests to prove the existence of any of their Gods. I don't know if they do. If it be they do not, why then is proving the existence of a deity so critical among monotheistic cultures?

All the best.
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      09-15-2015, 11:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Oh boy. I hope it's not another "gap of the gods" argument.
The show struck me more as a mini-anthology or status report of sorts more so than an argument of any sort. Though in one place, the "gap of the gods" leap is brought up, the scientist offering it also recognized explicitly that the "gap" and its existence is not proof of God's existence or proof of supernatural causality, even though a deity is one possible explanation. Accordingly, I'm okay with the nature in which the idea was presented. I gleaned from the tone of the researchers' discourse that they each seek formal proof of God's existence.

All the best.
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      09-15-2015, 11:06 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Didn't CNN have something like this as well? I didn't watch that either. . .
I don't know and, obviously (LOL), didn't watch a CNN show of this sort. To that end, I can't say how similar (or not) it may have been.

All the best.
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      09-25-2015, 04:38 PM   #11
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Interesting. Will have to watch this. I've been reading a great book on Christian Apologetics that I'd recommend to anyone. They demonstrate several proofs for God's existence quite well.
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      09-25-2015, 06:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Interesting. Will have to watch this. I've been reading a great book on Christian Apologetics that I'd recommend to anyone. They demonstrate several proofs for God's existence quite well.
You mentioned either earlier in this thread, or in the "Christianity" thread, that you were going to read Thomas Aquinas. Are his Theologica and/or Gentiles the writings to which you refer?

If you are pursuing great religious philosophy, I strongly suggest you also read Augustine's writings. His he Literal Interpretation of Genesis is one text I think you'd find interesting given the zeal with which you responded to the discussions on B-post pertaining to the Creation story. In that volume, Augustine examines the merit of Sirach 18:1 in consideration of the Genisis story.

All the best.
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      09-27-2015, 01:56 PM   #13
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It's a scientific fact that nothing comes from nothing. So...let's forget for a moment how life began (which is a HUGE leap from dead matter*). Where did oxygen, nitrogen, carbon and all of the elements of the periodic table come from?? That should be enough proof of a Creator...unless one is blind/hard-hearted.

(*Do you know where Richard Dawkins says he believes life came from?)
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      09-27-2015, 02:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
It's a scientific fact that nothing comes from nothing. So...let's forget for a moment how life began (which is a HUGE leap from dead matter*). Where did oxygen, nitrogen, carbon and all of the elements of the periodic table come from?? That should be enough proof of a Creator...unless one is blind/hard-hearted.

(*Do you know where Richard Dawkins says he believes life came from?)
Well, now, that's not precisely so. What has been a fact is that nobody formally proved that something can, could have or did come from nothing, but that's not at all the same thing as intuiting that such a thing could not and never did happen. That appears to be changing. Three physicists seem -- depending on how well accepted a recently published paper becomes in the aftermath of other researchers exploring its predictions and implications -- to "have presented a mathematical proof that the[/a] universe can be created spontaneously from nothing."

Their paper doesn't go far enough to assert that "from nothing did come our universe (multiverse)," but knowing that an event can occur is a big step toward helping figure out whether or not it did happen. As any probability mathematician will assert, if a think has a non-zero chance of happening, sooner or later it will happen, or it already has happened and it's a matter of waiting for it to happen again.

All the best.
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      09-28-2015, 10:19 AM   #15
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I appreciate this thread is about a TV show, however

In short, you can't, not in any logical way.
Had this discussion argument on many a forum and it's all turn bad.

wether you are a believer or non-believer, your not able to prove nor equally dis-prove the existence of God

<><


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
On 13-Sep-15, the H2 Channel will air a two hour show called Proving God.

I've not seen it before, and I have no idea what stance the show will take, but I will record it.

All the best.
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      09-28-2015, 11:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Well, now, that's not precisely so. What has been a fact is that nobody formally proved that something can, could have or did come from nothing, but that's not at all the same thing as intuiting that such a thing could not and never did happen. That appears to be changing. Three physicists seem -- depending on how well accepted a recently published paper becomes in the aftermath of other researchers exploring its predictions and implications -- to "have presented a mathematical proof that the[/a] universe can be created spontaneously from nothing."

Their paper doesn't go far enough to assert that "from nothing did come our universe (multiverse)," but knowing that an event can occur is a big step toward helping figure out whether or not it did happen. As any probability mathematician will assert, if a think has a non-zero chance of happening, sooner or later it will happen, or it already has happened and it's a matter of waiting for it to happen again.

All the best.
Nothing comes from nothing. People can have mental intercourse 'til their blue in the face, but...that fact will never change.

Anyone with half a brain SHOULD be able to see that the complexity of the universe and life on this earth did not arise from a void without Someone/Something making the elements, putting them together to make matter and then causing that quantum leap called "life" to occur in that creation.

But, having this discussion with some people is like arguing over shades of blue with a blind person. (Present company excluded, of course. )
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      09-28-2015, 03:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Nothing comes from nothing. People can have mental intercourse 'til their blue in the face, but...that fact will never change.

Anyone with half a brain SHOULD be able to see that the complexity of the universe and life on this earth did not arise from a void without Someone/Something making the elements, putting them together to make matter and then causing that quantum leap called "life" to occur in that creation.

But, having this discussion with some people is like arguing over shades of blue with a blind person. (Present company excluded, of course. )
Red:
TY and yes, it can be that way with some people.

Blue:
The people with whom I grow most frustrated when discussing this topic are those who simply refuse -- regardless of whether they are theists or Atheists -- to consider from an intellectual standpoint the evidence before them. The chance that there was a god who created everything exists. So does the chance that there was not. Given that each assertions may be true, one must recognize that fact and seek information that lends credence to one or the other. I think that one's asserting that their faith tells them which is true is fine for them and their daily existence, but it's not fine, not even close, in an intellectual discussion of the two possibilities.

Green:
"Nothing coming from nothing" and "something coming from nothing," are two very different assertions. I don't think anyone propones the former. The research to which I provided the link in my earlier post demonstrates mathematically that the latter is indeed possible.

Purple:
Absent information suggesting it's possible something can come from nothing, I agree. The physicists who performed the study I referenced have shown that, at least mathematically, it's possible that something can come from nothing. The obvious questions to ask next are:
  • What, if anything, did come from nothing?
  • Is the universe an example of something that, as the equations indicate is possible, came from nothing?
Obviously, right now, nobody knows the answer to those questions. I think it's safe to say that everyone with "half a brain" understands that that if it is possible to describe the circumstances that allow something to come from nothing, it's probable that at some point in time, the natural event the math describes did in fact occur.



All the best.
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      09-28-2015, 04:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Nothing comes from nothing. People can have mental intercourse 'til their blue in the face, but...that fact will never change.

Anyone with half a brain SHOULD be able to see that the complexity of the universe and life on this earth did not arise from a void without Someone/Something making the elements, putting them together to make matter and then causing that quantum leap called "life" to occur in that creation.

But, having this discussion with some people is like arguing over shades of blue with a blind person. (Present company excluded, of course. )
Yikes. The fact that 99.9% of the brightest minds in the world disagree with you doesn't lend much credence to your half a brain theory.. The great thing is we all have the freedom to believe what we want. I don't know why people have an easier time believing in a super being that manufactures elements and peers into people's minds than they do science, but to each his own. Perhaps if the god theory didn't dangle such a big, juicy carrot (heaven) in front everyone there would be more objectivity. I don't believe in filling in the gaps of our knowledge with magic and the supernatural. Whatever the answer is, it will fit with the math and fall within the realms of physics.
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      09-28-2015, 04:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
Yikes. The fact that 99.9% of the brightest minds in the world disagree with you doesn't lend much credence to your half a brain theory.. The great thing is we all have the freedom to believe what we want. I don't know why people have an easier time believing in a super being that manufactures elements and peers into people's minds than they do science, but to each his own. Perhaps if the god theory didn't dangle a big, juicy carrot (heaven) in front everyone there would be more objectivity. I don't believe in filling in the gaps of our knowledge with magic and the supernatural. The answers will fit with the math and fall within the realms of physics.
The same could be said of the brightest minds of the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. They all bought into the idea that the universe was centered on Earth. Then as now, their beliefs were based on teh best information they had available at the time. Just as they were patently wrong, so too could be the bright minds to which you referred.

There is only one correct answer, and it's verity does not depend on who or how many people accept it at any point in time.

All the best.
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      09-28-2015, 07:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
The same could be said of the brightest minds of the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. They all bought into the idea that the universe was centered on Earth. Then as now, their beliefs were based on teh best information they had available at the time. Just as they were patently wrong, so too could be the bright minds to which you referred.

There is only one correct answer, and it's verity does not depend on who or how many people accept it at any point in time.

All the best.
Problem is, religious folks are still basing their beliefs based on information postulated 500 years before the middle ages.
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      09-28-2015, 10:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Yikes. The fact that 99.9% of the brightest minds in the world disagree with you doesn't lend much credence to your half a brain theory.
Uhhh...fact check, please. Where did you pull that number from...a black hole?

Do you consider Richard Dawkins to be one of those "brightest minds"? Do you know where he believes life came from?
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      09-28-2015, 10:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
Problem is, religious folks are still basing their beliefs based on information postulated 500 years before the middle ages.
Some are, many aren't. Any intelligent design or creation scientist could talk circles around the best evolutionist. The fact is that Darwin himself would not agree with his own theories based on today's fossil records. Where are all of the interspecies ("missing links") that he said would have to be found to validate his theory of evolution? Uhhh...they're still missing.

Nothing comes from nothing. The only something that comes from nothing is...more nothing. Only a fool would think otherwise. Think about what you guys are saying! Are any you really suggesting that this complex universe appeared out of nothingness? That is true insanity.

Let me ask you a simple question: If you had to choose between something that was "hard to believe" vs. something that was "impossible to believe", which would you choose?
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