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      08-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #683
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I think the used base 911 or 911S market will take a hit when they can buy a brand new Vette for the same money.
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      08-20-2019, 12:07 PM   #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I think the used base 911 or 911S market will take a hit when they can buy a brand new Vette for the same money.
I highly doubt that, for reasons Hack stated above.

A Porsche is still a premium, low volume product with a top tier brand name and image. For those very fortunate people who are able to spend $100k+ on a Porsche I dont think they give a crap about the "value" that the Vette offers. If they really want a Vette they will probably just pick one up to park next to their Porsche in their garage.

Again, like Hack stated, the value of the Vette has always been there compared to cars much more expensive. The only thing to really change for the Vette is that it looks more exotic now. Performance is just one aspect of purchasing a car. Craftsmanship, name brand, image, aspiration, etc and many other factors come into play as well. A Timex watch will keep perfect time and cost $100 but those that choose to buy a Rolex For $10k do so for more reasons than simply wanting to know what time it is.
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      08-20-2019, 12:12 PM   #685
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Performance is seriously over rated, once past 400ish HP it becomes a moot point on public roads. unless you're gonna track it it's just bragging rights.
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      08-20-2019, 12:41 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Performance is seriously over rated, once past 400ish HP it becomes a moot point on public roads. unless you're gonna track it it's just bragging rights.
Heck, even on the track, it's just bragging rights, because we would all have fun in cheap Miatas on a track. Unless you're an actual race driver, none of this stuff really matters. It's just theoretical one-upmanship.

I agree about public roads. 400hp might even be too much (depending on car weight.) I'm having a custom tune done right now, and I'm less worried about adding more power. I just want things smoother.

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      08-20-2019, 01:04 PM   #687
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I'd even argue that an engine that needs some revs is better for street fun, these torque heavy blown motors will get to illegal speeds so fast there's no fun in them. Cross posting on another thread, that's where Ford's Coyote V8 surprised me, needed a few revs which was quite exciting for a big fuck off engine.
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      08-20-2019, 01:06 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Performance is seriously over rated, once past 400ish HP it becomes a moot point on public roads. unless you're gonna track it it's just bragging rights.
I couldn't agree more.
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      08-20-2019, 01:39 PM   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Performance is seriously over rated, once past 400ish HP it becomes a moot point on public roads. unless you're gonna track it it's just bragging rights.
A mentor of mine once said, "if you can't go fast with 200 horse power, what's another 100 more horse power going to do for you?"

It's just a giant pissing match at this point, IMO.
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      08-20-2019, 01:57 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
A mentor of mine once said, "if you can't go fast with 200 horse power, what's another 100 more horse power going to do for you?"

It's just a giant pissing match at this point, IMO.
I think there is a tipping where you can or cannot feel the power in your seat. My 9-3 is 210HP and 1550KG and I don't really feel anything TBH. But a 345HP and similarly heavy base (997) 911 felt pretty good on exit ramps in comparison. So did the heavier but more powerful Mustang GT. Not sure what 600 or 700HP does for you though.
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      08-20-2019, 02:08 PM   #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
I doubt it, and honestly all the hysteria sounds kind of nuts. The C7 had world beating performance for its time, was priced around the same, had greatly improved quality, and Corvette fans loved it. Yet all the other marques went about their business and prospered.

It’s hilarious how every internet discussion about Porsches, BMW’s, McLarens (lol) and Supras (ok this last one should be worried) has some fun-guy-at-parties chime in with ‘why would i buy xxx when the C8 is coming’?

No question, people will defect to different brands depending on what they see and like. But the Corvette has had the same value proposition since its birth and it’s never significantly hurt a European brand’s sales, has it? Someone correct me with facts if i’m wrong.
I don't think it'll hurt 911 sales that much, but the C8 is seriously bad news for the boxster/cayman imo. It's neutered by a turbo 4 cylinder, it has less practicality. Not talking about power output-- the current boxster/cayman just sounds like you're driving around an econobox. Character wise, compared to a high displacement V8, no contest. Also, power. Also, dry sump as standard. Also, free of fucking turbos.

The Corvette has the same (amazing) value proposition as ever, agreed. But now it also has exotic looks, mid engine dynamics (and looks), and an interior that looks banging in pics (and everyone who's seen it IRL reports back that it's great). The interior looks good, full stop-- as in, not just "good for a corvette" or "better". Also, actual buttons for functions, instead of burying them in the ICE.

This'll almost certainly be my first American car, so they're pulling some people's loyalties. 6(!) of my friends also plan to get one, none of who have owned Corvettes or American cars before. I've never seen anything like the wide appeal of this things to people of a variety of automotive backgrounds. If you think this car isn't going to pull in customers from places Corvettes haven't before, I think you're deluding yourself.
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      08-20-2019, 02:20 PM   #692
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e.g. I don't think there was any 700 post long threads on the C7 unveiling on BMW forums
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      08-20-2019, 02:55 PM   #693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
e.g. I don't think there was any 700 post long threads on the C7 unveiling on BMW forums
I don't think there was a 700 post thread on any BMW unveiling on BMW forums

The C8 broke the internet like no other car EVER has....

I think Porsche hurt the Cayman sales all by themselves by going with the 4 banger turbo ... the C8 is going to affect many sales of new and used two door sports cars across the board.

The Cayman will still have a market for those who want a lightweight fun car to run through canyons with... I think the overweight overpriced 911 will be more affected by the C8 than the Cayman will be.
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      08-20-2019, 03:26 PM   #694
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You know what, when I first saw this car, I gave it shit on facebook.

Now on reflection, I admit I was wrong.

The bottom line is, this car will put a massive V8 BEHIND YOUR HEAD for under 70k.

That's incredible. And I can definitely see one in my future. Because I certainly don't see any other mid-engined car in it due to the high price involved with literally every other car in this class.
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      08-20-2019, 03:42 PM   #695
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As a chronic CPO Porsche buyer, I won't even look at the 'Vette when I'm ready for my next one. Call me a snob, but there's no way I'm dealing with a Chevy dealership for service when I can get a brand new Porsche as a service loaner and have a nice place to go. The only 'Vette I'd ever consider would be a very old, vintage one, were I so inclined to start driving cars like that (or collecting them).
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      08-20-2019, 04:29 PM   #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
e.g. I don't think there was any 700 post long threads on the C7 unveiling on BMW forums
Gotta remember that was 7 years ago...Plus this is about 3 or 4 threads merged into one.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=790845
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=791463
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=791792
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=855441

Just to name a few on THIS forum.

EDIT on an edit: Man these places are like a f**king time machine. Once in a while I'd like to just go back and see what people were talking about back in the days. Anyway, GM's initial claim on the "base" Stingray was 0-60 in 3.8 seconds. As it turned out, the base Stingray does 0-60 as claimed in 4.1. The Z51 package is required to hit 3.8 (surprise, surprise). And on top of that, with PDR (performance data recorder), launch control, and the A8 automatic transmission, people have tried their darn hardest to see if they can come close to GM's claimed time.

THEY CAN'T.

There's literally thousands of videos on YouTube of C7 owners of various trim and options, trying to hit that magical 3.8 second 0-60 claimed time. The best is someone doing it in ideal condition, low humidity, low temp, with warm tires and before heat soak set in, someone in an automatic Z51 managed to hit 3.95 second to 60. Most people, including magazines, have seen 4.1-4.4 seconds consistently. With launch control. On warm tires.

Of course, you sort of have to take GM at their words. They probably managed to hit 2.99 in a Z51 equipped C8 in a controlled test environment somewhere. But I guarantee you, in real world testing, most people will likely only manage a 3.2-3.5 in a C8. Which is nothing to scoff at. But that's standard GM practice, unlike BMW where, when they quote you a 4.9 second 0-60 (my MZ4 Coupe), you can pretty much hit that occasionally and beat it if you're willing to abuse the mother**k out of the clutch (magazines have gotten as low as 4.5s).
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      08-20-2019, 04:49 PM   #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I don't think it'll hurt 911 sales that much, but the C8 is seriously bad news for the boxster/cayman imo. It's neutered by a turbo 4 cylinder, it has less practicality. Not talking about power output-- the current boxster/cayman just sounds like you're driving around an econobox. Character wise, compared to a high displacement V8, no contest. Also, power. Also, dry sump as standard. Also, free of fucking turbos.

The Corvette has the same (amazing) value proposition as ever, agreed. But now it also has exotic looks, mid engine dynamics (and looks), and an interior that looks banging in pics (and everyone who's seen it IRL reports back that it's great). The interior looks good, full stop-- as in, not just "good for a corvette" or "better". Also, actual buttons for functions, instead of burying them in the ICE.

This'll almost certainly be my first American car, so they're pulling some people's loyalties. 6(!) of my friends also plan to get one, none of who have owned Corvettes or American cars before. I've never seen anything like the wide appeal of this things to people of a variety of automotive backgrounds. If you think this car isn't going to pull in customers from places Corvettes haven't before, I think you're deluding yourself.
Fair point on the 718. I think i might have even said the same thing on this very thread. And the Supra. Basically, automakers that put out half-ass products in this segment wont have anywhere to hide with the Corvette around. I buy that.

Heres some food for thought, though. GM sold 25-35 thousand C7s a year. Im too lazy to look up sales figures for each competing model, but i believe Porsches, M cars, Shelbys sold well from 2014-2017. How many C8s are they gearing up to make? If they produce 50k a year will that finally kill the weaker competitive models?
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      08-20-2019, 06:03 PM   #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I think the used base 911 or 911S market will take a hit when they can buy a brand new Vette for the same money.
I highly doubt that, for reasons Hack stated above.

A Porsche is still a premium, low volume product with a top tier brand name and image. For those very fortunate people who are able to spend $100k+ on a Porsche I dont think they give a crap about the "value" that the Vette offers. If they really want a Vette they will probably just pick one up to park next to their Porsche in their garage.

Again, like Hack stated, the value of the Vette has always been there compared to cars much more expensive. The only thing to really change for the Vette is that it looks more exotic now. Performance is just one aspect of purchasing a car. Craftsmanship, name brand, image, aspiration, etc and many other factors come into play as well. A Timex watch will keep perfect time and cost $100 but those that choose to buy a Rolex For $10k do so for more reasons than simply wanting to know what time it is.
I think where we may differ is the strength of the appeal of a mid-engine, n/a V8 sports car. I think this; along with the fact that it's used 911 vs NEW C8; will cause an erosion (or some level) of used 911 and 911S.
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      08-20-2019, 06:15 PM   #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
As a chronic CPO Porsche buyer, I won't even look at the 'Vette when I'm ready for my next one. Call me a snob, but there's no way I'm dealing with a Chevy dealership for service when I can get a brand new Porsche as a service loaner and have a nice place to go. The only 'Vette I'd ever consider would be a very old, vintage one, were I so inclined to start driving cars like that (or collecting them).
Fair enough, but you're going to let a handful (hopefully) of service trips over the life of the car prevent you from enjoying insane performance at a reasonable cost? I can't imagine their service centers are that bad!
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      08-20-2019, 06:22 PM   #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I think the used base 911 or 911S market will take a hit when they can buy a brand new Vette for the same money.
I highly doubt that, for reasons Hack stated above.

A Porsche is still a premium, low volume product with a top tier brand name and image. For those very fortunate people who are able to spend $100k+ on a Porsche I dont think they give a crap about the "value" that the Vette offers. If they really want a Vette they will probably just pick one up to park next to their Porsche in their garage.

Again, like Hack stated, the value of the Vette has always been there compared to cars much more expensive. The only thing to really change for the Vette is that it looks more exotic now. Performance is just one aspect of purchasing a car. Craftsmanship, name brand, image, aspiration, etc and many other factors come into play as well. A Timex watch will keep perfect time and cost $100 but those that choose to buy a Rolex For $10k do so for more reasons than simply wanting to know what time it is.
I think where we may differ is the strength of the appeal of a mid-engine, n/a V8 sports car. I think this; along with the fact that it's used 911 vs NEW C8; will cause an erosion (or some level) of used 911 and 911S.
Maybe I'm off base, but i would think the average 911 buyer cares more about it being a 911 rather than where the engine is placed. At the end of the day it's still a Porsche.

To give a personal example I typically buy preowned M cars. I could have bought a brand new 340i instead but I would rather have the used M3 for the same money. I think people who really want a 911 would still rather have one vs a new vette since, all things considered, Porsche > Chevrolet.

Don't take my posts as slighting the new vette. I love it and would absolutely consider buying one. I just don't think some of the premium brands have too much to worry about.
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      08-20-2019, 06:48 PM   #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
Fair point on the 718. I think i might have even said the same thing on this very thread. And the Supra. Basically, automakers that put out half-ass products in this segment wont have anywhere to hide with the Corvette around. I buy that.

Heres some food for thought, though. GM sold 25-35 thousand C7s a year. Im too lazy to look up sales figures for each competing model, but i believe Porsches, M cars, Shelbys sold well from 2014-2017. How many C8s are they gearing up to make? If they produce 50k a year will that finally kill the weaker competitive models?
The later years of C7 sales fell off a cliff because the mid engine buzz halted sales. Nearly everyone said theyd wait and wait they did.
Bowling Green recently added a second shift, nearly doubling the production number of the new generation. Theyre going to make tons of them and sell them all it seems.
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      08-20-2019, 07:03 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Gotta remember that was 7 years ago...Plus this is about 3 or 4 threads merged into one.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=790845
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=791463
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=791792
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=855441

Just to name a few on THIS forum.

EDIT on an edit: Man these places are like a f**king time machine. Once in a while I'd like to just go back and see what people were talking about back in the days. Anyway, GM's initial claim on the "base" Stingray was 0-60 in 3.8 seconds. As it turned out, the base Stingray does 0-60 as claimed in 4.1. The Z51 package is required to hit 3.8 (surprise, surprise). And on top of that, with PDR (performance data recorder), launch control, and the A8 automatic transmission, people have tried their darn hardest to see if they can come close to GM's claimed time.

THEY CAN'T.

There's literally thousands of videos on YouTube of C7 owners of various trim and options, trying to hit that magical 3.8 second 0-60 claimed time. The best is someone doing it in ideal condition, low humidity, low temp, with warm tires and before heat soak set in, someone in an automatic Z51 managed to hit 3.95 second to 60. Most people, including magazines, have seen 4.1-4.4 seconds consistently. With launch control. On warm tires.

Of course, you sort of have to take GM at their words. They probably managed to hit 2.99 in a Z51 equipped C8 in a controlled test environment somewhere. But I guarantee you, in real world testing, most people will likely only manage a 3.2-3.5 in a C8. Which is nothing to scoff at. But that's standard GM practice, unlike BMW where, when they quote you a 4.9 second 0-60 (my MZ4 Coupe), you can pretty much hit that occasionally and beat it if you're willing to abuse the mother**k out of the clutch (magazines have gotten as low as 4.5s).
Bro, there are multiple articles with the C7 Z51 hitting 3.8 seconds 0-60 or thereabouts.

Two manuals...

CD Test - 3.9

MT test - 3.9

And these auto convertibles were even quicker.

2014 Vert vs F-Type V8 - 3.7

2015 Vert Auto - 3.7


Being that the C8 is going to launch like a bat out of hell and won't need any type of pro driver to achieve great times, I think their estimates will be right on the money. Comparing the two cars really doesn't make sense in that aspect. I remember when the '02 Z06 came out and the magazines were always 0.1 off the time set by GM. Then they found that the GM driver was shifting without the clutch. There's no more variability to it now. Brake, gas, go.

Doing this on the street is a different story as the traction varies from surface to surface but any decent magazine test track should be able to recreate their times.

EDIT:

Owner video, 3.9, on the street no less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRZVo-2VV2I

Last edited by See5; 08-20-2019 at 07:25 PM..
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      08-20-2019, 07:12 PM   #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
As a chronic CPO Porsche buyer, I won't even look at the 'Vette when I'm ready for my next one. Call me a snob, but there's no way I'm dealing with a Chevy dealership for service when I can get a brand new Porsche as a service loaner and have a nice place to go. The only 'Vette I'd ever consider would be a very old, vintage one, were I so inclined to start driving cars like that (or collecting them).
Well at least you'll know you'll have a nice loaner and a Starbucks coffee in the waiting room when the C8's are lapping you in your 911 at the local track

Unless you have a GT3, then you should be ok....


Seriously though, I'm actually considering a 981 Cayman S while I wait for the dust to settle on the C8.... hope to have a C8 though in the next couple years.

Last edited by SoCal_NSX; 08-20-2019 at 07:18 PM..
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      08-20-2019, 07:46 PM   #704
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Corvette might take some cayman sale, but if I wanted 911 I wanted 911, you could have made same analogy about Ferrari vs Porsche but those wants Ferrari still want Ferrari despite Porsche being better "value"
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