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      01-27-2020, 03:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by nomoracin View Post
High road...

I respect your opinion, but I just ask to respect the dead.
I'll respect your wish for not wanting to talk about it. But as far as respecting the dead as a default, I think there's a huge problem in doing that. Sorry you have lost a role model of yours.
I agree with you, I'm morally-flexible on him cheating on his wife, even though they range in the hundreds, as she should of been smarter and known she was dealing with a dog.

However, his rape allegations that he admitted to are pretty disgusting and reads like something out of Law & Order SVU (strangulation, forced oral, ect).

He's already gone, so at this juncture, its pointless tarnishing his name but I certainly would not idolize him simply because he had a wicked jump shot.
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      01-27-2020, 04:09 PM   #46
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Condolences to all the families involved in this tragic accident, I feel much sorrow for all involved. RIP to one of the greatest NBA players of all time , gone way too soon along with the others who lost there lives and may God be with you all.
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      01-27-2020, 04:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I agree with you, I'm morally-flexible on him cheating on his wife, even though they range in the hundreds, as she should of been smarter and known she was dealing with a dog.

However, his rape allegations that he admitted to are pretty disgusting and reads like something out of Law & Order SVU (strangulation, forced oral, ect).

He's already gone, so at this juncture, its pointless tarnishing his name but I certainly would not idolize him simply because he had a wicked jump shot.
I'll pm you my response, because I said I'd respect OP in not talking about it further here.
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      01-27-2020, 05:23 PM   #48
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OK, I’ll go first.

The talk about what a great guy he was is somewhat nauseating.

Let’s not forget there is verifiable evidence he wasn’t a great husband and a possibility he may have been a very bad person.

It does suck for the family, but that goes with any death, including the others that died in that helicopter. It’s sad he’s the only one talked about.
None of this takes away his success as a basketball player.
While his personal life was always targeted because of success, we’re not judging him on your basis of morality. He was a family man and loved his family, and no doubt they loved him.

While you lament the others passing, there are families killed everyday in car accidents, but I don’t see you listing the names of these perfect people. Unfortunately, human nature is to find morality fault the higher up the success chain you go.

With tragedy comes sympathy and forgiveness, period.

Let’s just grieve in our own ways, or just let people be without the criticism.
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      01-27-2020, 09:24 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
None of this takes away his success as a basketball player.
While his personal life was always targeted because of success, we’re not judging him on your basis of morality. He was a family man and loved his family, and no doubt they loved him.

While you lament the others passing, there are families killed everyday in car accidents, but I don’t see you listing the names of these perfect people. Unfortunately, human nature is to find morality fault the higher up the success chain you go.

With tragedy comes sympathy and forgiveness, period.

Let’s just grieve in our own ways, or just let people be without the criticism.
Great response Tom and I could not agree more with your post. Thank you!
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      01-27-2020, 11:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
None of this takes away his success as a basketball player.
While his personal life was always targeted because of success, we’re not judging him on your basis of morality. He was a family man and loved his family, and no doubt they loved him.

While you lament the others passing, there are families killed everyday in car accidents, but I don’t see you listing the names of these perfect people. Unfortunately, human nature is to find morality fault the higher up the success chain you go.

With tragedy comes sympathy and forgiveness, period.

Let’s just grieve in our own ways, or just let people be without the criticism.
There is a huge difference. I don’t know the details of other people and their lives but I do know some damning details about Kobe Bryant.

None of us are perfect, but we don’t eulogize regular folks endlessly while leaving out huge portions of reality like they never happened.

It’s certainly my place to criticize as much as it is others’ place to blindly love a man who didn’t know they existed and had very public warts because of his own misgivings.
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      01-27-2020, 11:50 PM   #51
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Sure we do. I've never been to a funeral where they talked about what a shithead the dead guy is. If the deceased was a crack head pedofile people say how great they were.
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      01-28-2020, 07:39 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
There is a huge difference. I don’t know the details of other people and their lives but I do know some damning details about Kobe Bryant.

None of us are perfect, but we don’t eulogize regular folks endlessly while leaving out huge portions of reality like they never happened.

It’s certainly my place to criticize as much as it is others’ place to blindly love a man who didn’t know they existed and had very public warts because of his own misgivings.
So what?

It’s okay that at your final eulogy when you’re surrounded by family and loved ones, some idiot gets up in front of the church and starts with “he wasn’t that perfect...”
it’s a dick move, and you know it.
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      01-28-2020, 07:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
So what?

It’s okay that at your final eulogy when you’re surrounded by family and loved ones, some idiot gets up in front of the church and starts with “he wasn’t that perfect...”
it’s a dick move, and you know it.
I think that the position that some are taking isn't quite as harsh as your analogy. Nobody is going to stand up at his eulogy and crap on him, I think where the disconnect is comes in that he is being heralded as the second coming.....to be fair, he was one of the greatest basketball players of all time, an accomplished business man and a caring father. He clearly had flaws, and it wasn't just infidelity because frankly I could care less about that because it occurs in nearly half of all marriages so that doesn't make him unusual. There was a credible allegation against him, and maybe it's too soon but he wasn't JFK, Mother Theresa or Gandhi either. Just my two cents.

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      01-28-2020, 08:00 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
These are my thoughts. It's sad that someone has died in such a tragic way and that the people who have looked up to him have lost him.

However, it worries me that society can idolize someone simply for being a good athlete, instead of for their virtues.

Kobe raped a 19yr old girl, then him and his legal team went after her to ruin her in court and ruin her reputation, all to protect Kobe's reputation so him and his endorsements can profit. Eventually the case was dropped and settled outside of the court. With Kobe saying "Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." Like, there was blood everywhere all over both of their clothes and her reporting to have been in pain and telling him to stop...

During this act, he has also cheated on his wife and broke his marriage vows. Which completely disgusts me that someone can have so much disregard to do something that easily breaks up and destroys their family. His wife has stated that there's at least 100 people he's cheated on her with. Yet Kobe spoke often about being a devout catholic.

Now, maybe he's apologized privately for these things. (he certainly hasn't done so publicly) Had a breakthrough, vowed to change, and really stuck to it. I don't know. No one does.

But that's just my point. People are mourning the loss of a basketball player, someone who is good at catching and throwing balls and weaving between people, not idolizing him because they know he was a good person.


Your legal interpretation is just that, an interpretation.
The victims lawyers took this high profile case, without any degree of loss of quality of representation.
What actually transpired, we will never know, but the agreed to result was just that; agreed by both parties.

While you enjoy diminishing a persons accomplishments, because you feel it’s not as culturally or socially important, is negligible.

The furthest degree of mourning seems to be the loss of him as he was with his daughter at the time.

It’s pretty pathetic to be lambasting a persons existence, shortly after his passing, for your interpretation of “good” or “bad”, when you know absolutely nothing about his life. But you feel entitled to judge it because he “threw a ball”.
Curious what great morality your career has bestowed upon society?
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      01-28-2020, 08:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
Your legal interpretation is just that, an interpretation.
The victims lawyers took this high profile case, without any degree of loss of quality of representation.
What actually transpired, we will never know, but the agreed to result was just that; agreed by both parties.

While you enjoy diminishing a persons accomplishments, because you feel it’s not as culturally or socially important, is negligible.

The furthest degree of mourning seems to be the loss of him as he was with his daughter at the time.

It’s pretty pathetic to be lambasting a persons existence, shortly after his passing, for your interpretation of “good” or “bad”, when you know absolutely nothing about his life. But you feel entitled to judge it because he “threw a ball”.
Curious what great morality your career has bestowed upon society?
Not once did I make a single legal interpretation, but shared my view on society's reaction to his death.

"What actually transpired we will never know" Not true. The facts about that case are well known and public. He admitted to raping her. The physical evidence is clear that he did it. He also did not publicly apologize for it, and refused to talk about the case when questioned about it.

I stated I was sad at society's reaction. My post was about my disappointment in society. The fact that society can call him a great father, when he's cheated 100s of times. The way you are diminishing a rape victim to protect a basketball player, is congruent to what I see. And I'm not particularly sure it's helpful to his children to promote him as a good father, when he clearly wasn't, because that's going to distort their view of what a good father really is.

"While you enjoy diminishing a persons accomplishments, because you feel it’s not as culturally or socially important, is negligible."
It's not negligible, because what he's done and what society does further aids in destroying society. That someone can rape and cheat and still die a hero because they were a good basketball player... that is very dangerous to promote. It shows people you can do what you want and get away with it, despite hurting people, if you are great at your job.

I know I said I'd respect OPs wish to not talk about it further, but when you're attributing things to me that aren't true, I'm going to defend myself.
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      01-28-2020, 08:56 AM   #56
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While it is sad that Kobe died, it is equally sad that everyone else on that helicopter died, especially a young girl. I don't see Kobe being worth any more than anyone else.

Now, I also don't like sports and perhaps that's why I see no additional value to him over another person.

But I did come across this picture and I tend to agree with the message.
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      01-28-2020, 11:23 AM   #57
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I stated I was sad at society's reaction. My post was about my disappointment in society.
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You are the epitome of a disappointment in society.
Take care.
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      01-28-2020, 11:36 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Not once did I make a single legal interpretation, but shared my view on society's reaction to his death.

"What actually transpired we will never know" Not true. The facts about that case are well known and public. He admitted to raping her. The physical evidence is clear that he did it. He also did not publicly apologize for it, and refused to talk about the case when questioned about it.

I stated I was sad at society's reaction. My post was about my disappointment in society. The fact that society can call him a great father, when he's cheated 100s of times. The way you are diminishing a rape victim to protect a basketball player, is congruent to what I see. And I'm not particularly sure it's helpful to his children to promote him as a good father, when he clearly wasn't, because that's going to distort their view of what a good father really is.

"While you enjoy diminishing a persons accomplishments, because you feel it’s not as culturally or socially important, is negligible."
It's not negligible, because what he's done and what society does further aids in destroying society. That someone can rape and cheat and still die a hero because they were a good basketball player... that is very dangerous to promote. It shows people you can do what you want and get away with it, despite hurting people, if you are great at your job.

I know I said I'd respect OPs wish to not talk about it further, but when you're attributing things to me that aren't true, I'm going to defend myself.
Kobe’s statement


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado.

“Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did.”

Where’s this admission of rape?

I stand by my statement, and you obviously have made up your mind and certainly have taken the most inappropriate time to vent it.

Your view of “cheating” is about marriage infidelity and is a religious construct, as is judgment of others and forgiveness, of which you’ve selectively ignored.
While you may not view him as a hero, we’re supposed to pay homage to a man who contributed to society and died with his daughter and friends.

Your view of “hurting” people, again, is in the eye of the beholder. Since nobody is morally perfect or perfectly moral, your point of view and timing, was designed for no other purpose than to grandstand while nerves were raw.

Stop pretending that you have some entitlement to judge anyone.
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      01-28-2020, 12:00 PM   #59
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Once again, Tom is on point with his latest post. Even more importantly, if the Kobe “truthers”, “What about the other passengers” or “he just played basketball” commentators feel they now want to air their opinions, feel free to create another thread because this thread is titled “RIP Kobe Bryant”, not “Kobe Bryant: A Retrospective” or “Let’s acknowledge all deaths”. The OP obviously created this thread to share condolences and express positive sentiments after Kobe Bryant’s death. So again, feel free to create those other threads and others will choose (or not) to share their thoughts on that topic.
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      01-28-2020, 12:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
Kobe’s statement


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado.

“Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did.”

Where’s this admission of rape?

I stand by my statement, and you obviously have made up your mind and certainly have taken the most inappropriate time to vent it.

Your view of “cheating” is about marriage infidelity and is a religious construct, as is judgment of others and forgiveness, of which you’ve selectively ignored.
While you may not view him as a hero, we’re supposed to pay homage to a man who contributed to society and died with his daughter and friends.

Your view of “hurting” people, again, is in the eye of the beholder. Since nobody is morally perfect or perfectly moral, your point of view and timing, was designed for no other purpose than to grandstand while nerves were raw.

Stop pretending that you have some entitlement to judge anyone.
If he realizes she didn't think the sex was consensual then I assume she thought it was rape and he realizes it was rape? We're reading too much into the statement by lawyers for an idiot.

He first denied to the police he had sex with the teenager and later he threw his semen stained shirt at the cop.
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      01-28-2020, 12:20 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
Kobe’s statement


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado.

“Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did.”

Where’s this admission of rape?

I stand by my statement, and you obviously have made up your mind and certainly have taken the most inappropriate time to vent it.

Your view of “cheating” is about marriage infidelity and is a religious construct, as is judgment of others and forgiveness, of which you’ve selectively ignored.
While you may not view him as a hero, we’re supposed to pay homage to a man who contributed to society and died with his daughter and friends.

Your view of “hurting” people, again, is in the eye of the beholder. Since nobody is morally perfect or perfectly moral, your point of view and timing, was designed for no other purpose than to grandstand while nerves were raw.

Stop pretending that you have some entitlement to judge anyone.
There is no such thing as an inappropriate time to make a statement helpful to society.

My view of cheating is not a religious construct. It is a vow Kobe made to his wife. It is the virtue of a man to keep his vows. Not only because it's the right thing to do to the person you made the vow to, but also it's the right thing to do to keep your integrity. And it's well known the mental implications of this stuff and the damage it does. The dangers of which have been known for thousands of years or more. I do not recall him apologizing for cheating, so I do not see how you can say that I am selectively ignoring my duty to forgive him. Absolutely nothing in Kobe's statement says anything about cheating.

According to the police report, while he was being questioned by the officers about the alleged sexual assault, Bryant said, “I should have done what Shaq does,” adding, “Shaq gives them money or buys them cars, he has already spent one million dollars.” The report added, “Kobe stated that Shaq does this to keep the girls quiet.”
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      01-28-2020, 12:22 PM   #62
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Once again, Tom is on point with his latest post. Even more importantly, if the Kobe “truthers”, “What about the other passengers” or “he just played basketball” commentators feel they now want to air their opinions, feel free to create another thread because this thread is titled “RIP Kobe Bryant”, not “Kobe Bryant: A Retrospective” or “Let’s acknowledge all deaths”. The OP obviously created this thread to share condolences and express positive sentiments after Kobe Bryant’s death. So again, feel free to create those other threads and others will choose (or not) to share their thoughts on that topic.
This was another thread, but mods decided to merge it with this one...
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      01-28-2020, 12:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
This was another thread, but mods decided to merge it with this one...
That’s unfortunate b/c these are very different issues/subjects.
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      01-28-2020, 01:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ScottSinger View Post
If he realizes she didn't think the sex was consensual then I assume she thought it was rape and he realizes it was rape? We're reading too much into the statement by lawyers for an idiot.

He first denied to the police he had sex with the teenager and later he threw his semen stained shirt at the cop.
Wasn't going to comment in this thread, but f*ck it. We just going to ignore the girls reputation at her school, she was known as nut and a slut. She had been admitted to hospital for four months prior to the incident for mental health(quote "danger to herself"). Her roommate said she had tried to kill herself twice. At the time of the incident she had sex with 3 different men in 3 days. She got cold feet when the judge ruled her sexual activity was fair game, anything 72hrs leading up to the event. Ex friend of accuser said she never believed her and she had plotted to lure Eminem to sleep with her and force him to pay up. This same ex friend was going to testify in the case for the Kobe's defense, had the accuser not have gotten cold feet. Yes Kobe was a cheater, but the accuser's credibility was always in question.
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      01-28-2020, 01:34 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Wasn't going to comment in this thread, but f*ck it. We just going to ignore the girls reputation at her school, she was known as nut and a slut. She had been admitted to hospital for four months prior to the incident for mental health(quote "danger to herself"). Her roommate said she had tried to kill herself twice. At the time of the incident she had sex with 3 different men in 3 days. She got cold feet when the judge ruled her sexual activity was fair game, anything 72hrs leading up to the event. Ex friend of accuser said she never believed her and she had plotted to lure Eminem to sleep with her and force him to pay up. This same ex friend was going to testify in the case for the Kobe's defense, had the accuser not have gotten cold feet. Yes Kobe was a cheater, but the accuser's credibility was always in question.
So did you work on his defence team? I'm not going to suggest that you don't know any of that to be correct but I don't know that that is public knowledge. What is public knowledge and part of the court record paints him in a pretty poor light. Everything you say might be true, but does it change what we know to be true?
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      01-28-2020, 02:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Wasn't going to comment in this thread, but f*ck it. We just going to ignore the girls reputation at her school, she was known as nut and a slut. She had been admitted to hospital for four months prior to the incident for mental health(quote "danger to herself"). Her roommate said she had tried to kill herself twice. At the time of the incident she had sex with 3 different men in 3 days. She got cold feet when the judge ruled her sexual activity was fair game, anything 72hrs leading up to the event. Ex friend of accuser said she never believed her and she had plotted to lure Eminem to sleep with her and force him to pay up. This same ex friend was going to testify in the case for the Kobe's defense, had the accuser not have gotten cold feet. Yes Kobe was a cheater, but the accuser's credibility was always in question.
I fail to see how that's a defense to Kobe. Or how it tells us if she did or didn't consent to having sex with him. Are mentally questionable people incapable of being raped? Is that your argument? And if true, means Kobe has bad judgement in the women he chooses to sleep with.
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