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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions C/D: Our 2020 M340i is a Return to Form (10k mile long term tester update)

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      03-27-2020, 11:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Ok fair enough, but realistically speaking, is there anymore a size able market for something like this? I mean, outside of BMW internet message boards?
I don't think so. Sports sedan is just a marketing term now anyway. It can mean anything to anyone. Mercedes calls the c class a sports sedan. Doesn't make it true or accurate. I think 80-90% of BMW buyers and buyers in general will be highly satisfied with the G20. It's the best midsize sporty luxury car on the market at that price point.(both 330i and 340i)
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      03-27-2020, 11:03 AM   #68
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And to be fair my cousin also calls his Honda accord sport a sports sedan.
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      03-27-2020, 11:34 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
And to be fair my cousin also calls his Honda accord sport a sports sedan.
Must be that super sporty CVT
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      03-27-2020, 11:47 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
And to be fair my cousin also calls his Honda accord sport a sports sedan.
Must be that super sporty CVT
Accord 2.0t Sport can be had with a manual:


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      03-27-2020, 11:53 AM   #71
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Must be that super sporty CVT

Don't crucify me here but I think the EPS rack in the accord sport, while a bit lighter, is still overall a bit better and more precise than the G20.
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      03-27-2020, 12:02 PM   #72
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Must be that super sporty CVT

Don't crucify me here but I think the EPS rack in the accord sport, while a bit lighter, is still overall a bit better and more precise than the G20.
I have driven a new Accord owned by a close family member and find the EPS dreadful on that car. Feels weird to me.

It's a competent car built to a price point mostly for point A to point B commuting and generally reliable transportation. Nothing more, nothing less. Honestly, don't get what's all the hoopla about them.

And yes, I owned my fair share of Honda and Acura products back in the 1990s.
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      03-27-2020, 12:04 PM   #73
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Must be that super sporty CVT

Don't crucify me here but I think the EPS rack in the accord sport, while a bit lighter, is still overall a bit better and more precise than the G20.
Agree, most Honda's have a better EPS rack, hell even Mazda does and they use to benchmark BMW for that stuff!
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      03-27-2020, 12:06 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Must be that super sporty CVT

Don't crucify me here but I think the EPS rack in the accord sport, while a bit lighter, is still overall a bit better and more precise than the G20.
Agree, most Honda's have a better EPS rack, hell even Mazda does and they use to benchmark BMW for that stuff!
Unfortunately most of those cars are held back by FWD architecture/dynamics drawbacks, anemic power plants (Looking at you Mazda) and third rate transmissions (CVTs).
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      03-27-2020, 12:08 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Accord 2.0t Sport can be had with a manual:


I'm aware... I was just poking fun
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      03-27-2020, 12:08 PM   #76
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Must be that super sporty CVT

Don't crucify me here but I think the EPS rack in the accord sport, while a bit lighter, is still overall a bit better and more precise than the G20.
Agree, most Honda's have a better EPS rack, hell even Mazda does and they use to benchmark BMW for that stuff!
Unfortunately most of those cars are held back by FWD architecture/dynamics drawbacks, anemic power plants (Looking at you Mazda) and third rate transmissions (CVTs).
We're just discussing steering, we're not saying they're better overall vehicles or quitting BMW forever for them, but they are doing some things better. BMW isn't perfect, sometimes others just do things much better.

Also, a FWD Mazda 3 6MT can be a lot of fun. A friend of mine has one (last generation), and while its down on power, its lightweight and has the "slow car fast"/Miata effect, where your working for the power and wringing out the gears, not to mention the chassis, steering and gearbox are really good. Pretty fun. Would I want one for my everyday vehicle, no, but I can't say that it wasn't a lot of fun despite its "limitations." The GTI and Si, ST, etc. is the same way and they are great little cars for those who don't want to spend more than $25k for a fun car.
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      03-27-2020, 12:21 PM   #77
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So a "Proper" sports sedan should have a jarring/crashy suspension setup plus stiff/heavy steering?
No...the E36 ride is less jarring than the G30 530i M-Sport with RFT tires.

From my perspective a sport sedan should be engaging, and the G20 is not that engaging. Sure its better than an F30, but I'd rather have an older BMW that has the feel I prefer than spend $60k on something that doesn't make me happy. I've done the later by getting a G30 530i M-Sport and was bored out of my mind with that car. Thankfully it's gone now.

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      03-27-2020, 12:27 PM   #78
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Unfortunately most of those cars are held back by FWD architecture/dynamics drawbacks, anemic power plants (Looking at you Mazda) and third rate transmissions (CVTs).
Yeah i was referring to purely steering only. The G20 obviously out excels the accord and others in almost every other area. BUt also have to look at the price point....although that Mazda 3 interior isn't too shabby! And it's pretty fun to toss around for a FWD.
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      03-27-2020, 12:28 PM   #79
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Saying you are now moving to an M2 competition and away from sedans, well, I rest my case. There is no better contemporary sports sedan on the market than the M340.

If you are going to give up the utility and comfort of a proper sedan, why not get into the Porsche Cayman GT4? The manual transmission in the Porsche embarrasses the M2 manual, and the car weighs just 2900 pounds. With the engine behind you that car is in a completely different world than the M2.

Price is close too. Drive one and let me know your thoughts.
You're not understanding my point. I completely agree that the M340 is the best sedan in the price range right now. There are no alternatives currently produced that are better or more engaging (although you could almost make the argument that a Macan serves a similar purpose and is more engaging)

But my perspective is that buying a 2020 model is not my only option and there is nothing compelling enough about the G20 to make me want it over my E36 or my E39. Those cars are more engaging and are a lot cheaper than an M340. I'd be happy with another E90 or trying an E46 too before I went to a G20...I miss my E90, that was an excellent car.

I also agree on your point about the M2. You asked about cars in the price range of the M340 that are better, and thats the M2 comp. Cayman is more expensive.

Personally I would not buy the M2 because I prefer the Cayman for the reasons you mention, and the more fickle reason that I'm sick of having cars with black interiors, and thats all that you can get on the M2. I'm leaning towards the Cayman GTS now that it has the flat 6. The GT4 is a consideration, but I prefer cars that are more enjoyable on the street that can be taken on the track (GTS) rather than a car thats designed primarily for track use but also can be driven on the street (GT4)
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      03-27-2020, 12:42 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
We're just discussing steering, we're not saying they're better overall vehicles or quitting BMW forever for them, but they are doing some things better. BMW isn't perfect, sometimes others just do things much better.

Also, a FWD Mazda 3 6MT can be a lot of fun. A friend of mine has one (last generation), and while its down on power, its lightweight and has the "slow car fast"/Miata effect, where your working for the power and wringing out the gears, not to mention the chassis, steering and gearbox are really good. Pretty fun. Would I want one for my everyday vehicle, no, but I can't say that it wasn't a lot of fun despite its "limitations." The GTI and Si, ST, etc. is the same way and they are great little cars for those who don't want to spend more than $25k for a fun car.

Not going to lie- I used to be diehard BMW fanboy in my younger years. I wouldn't dare let anyone criticize the coveted 3 series. But back then- those cars really were the true ultimate unanimous benchmark. It wasn't even close. The 3/5/7 series was untouchable.

But with time & age comes new perspectives. Markets change, customers change, companies change, technology changes, and products ultimately change to meet all these new demands. Widespread use of EPS for fuel savings and efficiency really leveled the playing field. And with new advances in safety & tech, most cars are top safety + picks and now you can also get most new tech options and "luxury" features in even an economy car.

Bottom line is - many companies have massively improved their vehicle line ups and are simply just doing some things better and that has to be recognized and applauded. BMW has too and still excels and leads in many areas but it's not universal dominance anymore.
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      03-27-2020, 01:00 PM   #81
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
So a "Proper" sports sedan should have a jarring/crashy suspension setup plus stiff/heavy steering?
No...the E36 ride is less jarring than the G30 530i M-Sport with RFT tires.

From my perspective a sport sedan should be engaging, and the G20 is not that engaging. Sure its better than an F30, but I'd rather have an older BMW that has the feel I prefer than spend $60k on something that doesn't make me happy. I've done the later by getting a G30 530i M-Sport and was bored out of my mind with that car. Thankfully it's gone now.
Fantastic man, one has to find the car that satisfies your automotive needs and wants.
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      03-27-2020, 01:01 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
We're just discussing steering, we're not saying they're better overall vehicles or quitting BMW forever for them, but they are doing some things better. BMW isn't perfect, sometimes others just do things much better.

Also, a FWD Mazda 3 6MT can be a lot of fun. A friend of mine has one (last generation), and while its down on power, its lightweight and has the "slow car fast"/Miata effect, where your working for the power and wringing out the gears, not to mention the chassis, steering and gearbox are really good. Pretty fun. Would I want one for my everyday vehicle, no, but I can't say that it wasn't a lot of fun despite its "limitations." The GTI and Si, ST, etc. is the same way and they are great little cars for those who don't want to spend more than $25k for a fun car.

Not going to lie- I used to be diehard BMW fanboy in my younger years. I wouldn't dare let anyone criticize the coveted 3 series. But back then- those cars really were the true ultimate unanimous benchmark. It wasn't even close. The 3/5/7 series was untouchable.

But with time & age comes new perspectives. Markets change, customers change, companies change, technology changes, and products ultimately change to meet all these new demands. Widespread use of EPS for fuel savings and efficiency really leveled the playing field. And with new advances in safety & tech, most cars are top safety + picks and now you can also get most new tech options and "luxury" features in even an economy car.

Bottom line is - many companies have massively improved their vehicle line ups and are simply just doing some things better and that has to be recognized and applauded. BMW has too and still excels and leads in many areas but it's not universal dominance anymore.
I have driven many late model Mazda's and Honda's and while competent and fun at times, none of them have made me reach for the chequebook to get one.
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      03-27-2020, 01:04 PM   #83
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Quote:
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Unfortunately most of those cars are held back by FWD architecture/dynamics drawbacks, anemic power plants (Looking at you Mazda) and third rate transmissions (CVTs).
Yeah i was referring to purely steering only. The G20 obviously out excels the accord and others in almost every other area. BUt also have to look at the price point....although that Mazda 3 interior isn't too shabby! And it's pretty fun to toss around for a FWD.
I have driven the previous gen and current gen Mazda 3. It's probably a better drive than a Civic or Corolla but a pretty meh car in the bigger picture. Very decent transportation for the money paid. My main dislike with the 3 is the lackluster NA engines that hold it back.
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      03-27-2020, 01:46 PM   #84
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I have driven the previous gen and current gen Mazda 3. It's probably a better drive than a Civic or Corolla but a pretty meh car in the bigger picture. Very decent transportation for the money paid. My main dislike with the 3 is the lackluster NA engines that hold it back.
Just out of curiosity - what's your take on the GTI ? Right now, it's near the top for me to replace the G20 as my casual daily driver / commuter car. (prob autobahn edition)
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      03-27-2020, 02:16 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
I have driven the previous gen and current gen Mazda 3. It's probably a better drive than a Civic or Corolla but a pretty meh car in the bigger picture. Very decent transportation for the money paid. My main dislike with the 3 is the lackluster NA engines that hold it back.
Just out of curiosity - what's your take on the GTI ? Right now, it's near the top for me to replace the G20 as my casual daily driver / commuter car. (prob autobahn edition)
I like the Golf/GTI/R very much. But if in the market, I would wait for the all new MK8:


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...n-photos-info/
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      03-27-2020, 02:24 PM   #86
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I like the Golf/GTI/R very much. But if in the market, I would wait for the all new MK8:


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...n-photos-info/
Yeah my lease isn't up until 2022 anyway. I plan on waiting for the MK8. Not in love with the new design but if they keep the same driving dynamics i'm willing to compromise.
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      03-27-2020, 06:24 PM   #87
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So a FWD car is the answer, not an exige or Cayman. I know someone is going to mention price point but in life one always has to make compromises. No way I would chose a FWD VW over a RWD bimmer.

If someone is going to fault the G20, then at least go hardcore. Same for the Macan suggestion, would never buy that over an M340i. Imagine that, crossover is the answer. Also, driving an older bimmer and having to do the upkeep is not for everyone. My last E46 I put on 200K miles but the upkeep was a hassle. In 2016 when I parted ways I swore to never hang unto a car that long again.
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      03-27-2020, 07:00 PM   #88
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So a FWD car is the answer, not an exige or Cayman. I know someone is going to mention price point but in life one always has to make compromises. No way I would chose a FWD VW over a RWD bimmer.

If someone is going to fault the G20, then at least go hardcore. Same for the Macan suggestion, would never buy that over an M340i. Imagine that, crossover is the answer. Also, driving an older bimmer and having to do the upkeep is not for everyone. My last E46 I put on 200K miles but the upkeep was a hassle. In 2016 when I parted ways I swore to never hang unto a car that long again.
Agreed. Older E-Chassis BMWs might be fun and all but when it comes to upkeep it is best suited for DIYers and those that have the time, garage, tools, knowledge and funds to keep them on the road.
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