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      09-03-2020, 07:10 PM   #67
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I love threads like these where people all of a sudden deny better brakes deliver any advantage. Next thing you'll hear that rear brakes really aren't very important and BMW could just put drum brakes back there. Keep going guys!
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      09-04-2020, 07:54 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
I love threads like these where people all of a sudden deny better brakes deliver any advantage. Next thing you'll hear that rear brakes really aren't very important and BMW could just put drum brakes back there. Keep going guys!
People will give their money away to things that are new because it's supposedly "better." Drum brakes suck, I have them on my Civic, ask me how I know.
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      09-04-2020, 12:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by 435i_Phil View Post
People will give their money away to things that are new because it's supposedly "better." Drum brakes suck, I have them on my Civic, ask me how I know.
When the cars are launched it will as usual be clear that they are objectively better in pretty much every performance metric, functionality, efficiency, practicality etc. There’s not going to be any “supposedly”, it’s going to be facts.

So people will be willing to pay for a newer better car. Who can blame us?

What is not sure is how the cars will be received subjectively. The grills, the floating calipers, the weight, the size, the engine character , the gear shift feel are all areas were for some the cars will be subjectively worse independent of if there is no negative performance impact from these areas on objective metrics. If they don’t like it and decide to skip this generation, who can blame them?
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      09-04-2020, 03:41 PM   #70
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well, given m2c has 6 front and 4 rear, i'm already ok with other models have bigger brake than us.
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      09-05-2020, 10:55 AM   #71
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This isn't a surprise if the more powerful and heavier F90 M5 has the same.

I don't recall ever reading much about braking problems with that car.

It's just the move from hand brake to e brake.
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      09-05-2020, 11:56 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 435i_Phil View Post
I just don't understand how Porsche has accomplished what the 3 other manufacturers can't.
Kept with drum parking brakes, simply added an electronic actuator, from what I see in their parts schematics.

I suppose BMW could have done the same, kept the drum/shoe element and added an electronic actuator like Porsche. Seems the TRW E-brake is the more elegant solution, if the same braking performance is achieved.
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      09-05-2020, 04:59 PM   #73
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Do you need fixed calipers for the rear brakes to work and be adequate? No
Is it nice to have? Yes
Have we see any track prep/race cars with floating rear calipers? No? Nuff said.

It's just another aspect where they decide to pull back for whatever reason.

As far as all things electronic goes, other than having more problems with reliability (etc. G20 dash screens going blank completely mid drive), watch this video to see why having an electronic e-brake is not preferred over a mechanical one in certain situations.

At some point in time, I'm hoping manufacturers start to realize that making everything electronic is not the solution.

Last edited by OG///M; 09-05-2020 at 05:08 PM..
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      09-05-2020, 08:19 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbym View Post
watch this video to see why having an electronic e-brake is not preferred over a mechanical one in certain situations.
All I hear is the short chime when the switch is pulled but released. It has to be pulled and HELD to activate emergency braking. It has to be held even longer when there is a hydraulic brake system failure (more than 8 seconds). The chime with Emergency Stop activated is loud, constant, and not overridden by any other audible alerts.
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      09-05-2020, 08:20 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbym View Post
Do you need fixed calipers for the rear brakes to work and be adequate? No
Is it nice to have? Yes
Have we see any track prep/race cars with floating rear calipers? No? Nuff said.

It's just another aspect where they decide to pull back for whatever reason.

As far as all things electronic goes, other than having more problems with reliability (etc. G20 dash screens going blank completely mid drive), watch this video to see why having an electronic e-brake is not preferred over a mechanical one in certain situations.

At some point in time, I'm hoping manufacturers start to realize that making everything electronic is not the solution.
What exactly does a track prepped race car have to do with a mass production sports sedan?
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      09-05-2020, 08:36 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
What exactly does a track prepped race car have to do with a mass production sports sedan?
The point is that a fixed caliper design is no doubt superior. You don't see floating calipers in race cars because they want the best consistent braking performance possible.
BMW just decided to go for adequate, which is understandable but not the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
All I hear is the short chime when the switch is pulled but released. It has to be pulled and HELD to activate emergency braking. It has to be held even longer when there is a hydraulic brake system failure (more than 8 seconds). The chime with Emergency Stop activated is loud, constant, and not overridden by any other audible alerts.
That might be true, but a mechanical cable actuated e-brake is natural and universal in operation across all cars.
Not saying this is a normal thing that would happen a lot. But when needed, still preferred.

Last edited by OG///M; 09-05-2020 at 08:43 PM..
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      09-06-2020, 11:12 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbym View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
What exactly does a track prepped race car have to do with a mass production sports sedan?
The point is that a fixed caliper design is no doubt superior. You don't see floating calipers in race cars because they want the best consistent braking performance possible.
BMW just decided to go for adequate, which is understandable but not the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
All I hear is the short chime when the switch is pulled but released. It has to be pulled and HELD to activate emergency braking. It has to be held even longer when there is a hydraulic brake system failure (more than 8 seconds). The chime with Emergency Stop activated is loud, constant, and not overridden by any other audible alerts.
That might be true, but a mechanical cable actuated e-brake is natural and universal in operation across all cars.
Not saying this is a normal thing that would happen a lot. But when needed, still preferred.
Some race cars do have floating calipers.

The example scenario above doesn't support your argument of a mechanical handbrake benefit either. The brake system in every road car built since 1968 is split into at least 2 channels. That RS3 is split into 8/16. The failure of the right front disconnect doesn't mean all braking is lost. It is split into Primary 1 (Right Front/Left Rear) and Primary 2 (Left Front/Right Rear), along with Secondary 1 (Front Axle) and Secondary 2 (Rear Axle) at the ESP/ABS Hydropump. These are themselves cross linked with check valves, impulse reservoirs, and electromagnetic backup motors for the rear. All the driver had to do was apply and maintain full force on the pedal rather than put on that absurd display of ineptitude.
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      09-07-2020, 12:28 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Some race cars do have floating calipers.

The example scenario above doesn't support your argument of a mechanical handbrake benefit either. The brake system in every road car built since 1968 is split into at least 2 channels. That RS3 is split into 8/16. The failure of the right front disconnect doesn't mean all braking is lost. It is split into Primary 1 (Right Front/Left Rear) and Primary 2 (Left Front/Right Rear), along with Secondary 1 (Front Axle) and Secondary 2 (Rear Axle) at the ESP/ABS Hydropump. These are themselves cross linked with check valves, impulse reservoirs, and electromagnetic backup motors for the rear. All the driver had to do was apply and maintain full force on the pedal rather than put on that absurd display of ineptitude.
MOST race cars have fixed calipers, which is superior. That's it.

You're missing the point on the e-brake. It's about operation.
In an emergency situation, driver is panicking, brakes pedal seems to be gone. Now if it was a traditional handbrake, 9 out of 10 driver would be able to use it to their benefit.

Certain things should stay mechanical, simple, not everything should be electronic/software controlled. I don't know how that's difficult to understand. But this is off topic anyway.

Some of you seem to just like arguing for the sake of argument. I think I've made my point clear. Leave you to it.
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      09-07-2020, 07:18 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbym View Post
Certain things should stay mechanical, simple, not everything should be electronic/software controlled. I don't know how that's difficult to understand. But this is off topic anyway.
Isn't most of the electronic/software controlled stuff due to moves towards adding more driving 'assistance' systems.

Can't see that changing, we'll get even more electronics in the future, as features get added.

Even something like the self parking function, benefits from the e-brake.

Whether we really 'need' all this stuff, that's another debate.
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      09-07-2020, 08:36 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbym View Post
MOST race cars have fixed calipers, which is superior. That's it.

You're missing the point on the e-brake. It's about operation.
In an emergency situation, driver is panicking, brakes pedal seems to be gone. Now if it was a traditional handbrake, 9 out of 10 driver would be able to use it to their benefit.

Certain things should stay mechanical, simple, not everything should be electronic/software controlled. I don't know how that's difficult to understand. But this is off topic anyway.

Some of you seem to just like arguing for the sake of argument. I think I've made my point clear. Leave you to it.
Not arguing for the sake of arguing but, there’s a whole lot of overthinking going on here... mechanical or electrical, it is actually a “parking“ brake, not really designed as emergency brake, and therefore labeled with a P not and E. Most drivers today don’t even know how to use it correctly for parking let alone in an emergency.
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      09-07-2020, 09:28 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Some race cars do have floating calipers.

The example scenario above doesn't support your argument of a mechanical handbrake benefit either. The brake system in every road car built since 1968 is split into at least 2 channels. That RS3 is split into 8/16. The failure of the right front disconnect doesn't mean all braking is lost. It is split into Primary 1 (Right Front/Left Rear) and Primary 2 (Left Front/Right Rear), along with Secondary 1 (Front Axle) and Secondary 2 (Rear Axle) at the ESP/ABS Hydropump. These are themselves cross linked with check valves, impulse reservoirs, and electromagnetic backup motors for the rear. All the driver had to do was apply and maintain full force on the pedal rather than put on that absurd display of ineptitude.
My guess on what happened with that RS3 is a nitrous backfire/explosion took out the master cylinder or whole ABS system.
Would explain why he had no brake pedal at all.
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      09-09-2020, 10:57 PM   #82
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Go all out and get the carbon ceramics then! I have them and they stop on a dime!!
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      09-09-2020, 11:04 PM   #83
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Go all out and get the carbon ceramics then! I have them and they stop on a dime!!
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      09-10-2020, 01:32 PM   #84
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They could have at least designed a cover/trim so that it doesn't look so basic next to the fixed caliper fronts.
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      09-10-2020, 05:52 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spool twice View Post
They could have at least designed a cover/trim so that it doesn't look so basic next to the fixed caliper fronts.
The Shelby GT500 starts at $70k and that car has fixed rears. For the $80k the new M3 and M4 will start at, they should have fixed rears.
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      09-11-2020, 06:54 AM   #86
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I saw the complete M3 Yesterday in a closed room. So no Pics

The reason why they use this rear caliper is because it has no manual handbrake anymore.

Because of the electric handbrake they use an electric motor on the single piston caliper to put handbrake on. So there is no drum anymore inside brake discs bells.
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      09-11-2020, 08:39 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
I saw the complete M3 Yesterday in a closed room. So no Pics

The reason why they use this rear caliper is because it has no manual handbrake anymore.

Because of the electric handbrake they use an electric motor on the single piston caliper to put handbrake on. So there is no drum anymore inside brake discs bells.
Yeah, it was a cost cutting option. End of story.
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      09-14-2020, 06:56 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 435i_Phil View Post
Yeah, it was a cost cutting option. End of story.
It's either cost cutting, or weight increase, BMW can't win.
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