[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mofomat

So even when there's nobody present to observe it, you think it's worthwhile using your indicators? Who am I supposed to be indicating to at 2am on a deserted industrial estate? When I'm using the indicators as a method to override the steering intervention, then there's something wrong with the technology. Thankfully BMW agree, which is why they've changed the ability to permanently override the steering intervention.

Mine is 2021 US spec March production from SLO plant, and LWD steering intervention is a user config since day 1(version 11.2020.50).

The value of this feature obviously is per user discretion, up and including if user is willing to "cooperate".

From your descriptions LDW works as expected per BMW spec.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Mine is 2021 US spec March production from SLO plant, and LWD steering intervention is a user config since day 1(version 11.2020.50).

The value of this feature obviously is per user discretion, up and including if user is willing to "cooperate".

From your descriptions LDW works as expected per BMW spec.

It was slightly different on European spec models. You could disable it but it was reactivated when you next started the car. Only on this latest software update can you permanently disable it.

[Talisman77]

Originally Posted by mofomat

Who said anything about spirited driving? And "get into the habit of indicating"? Trust me, every time I indicate or don't indicate, it's not out of habit. Indicating (and not indicating) is a conscious decision and I do it without fail when it's necessary.

Without knowing the roads I'm talking about, you can't comment. When I say nobody is around, it's because I know nobody is around. You can see in this link here one bend which is a pain in the arse. It's a fast bend with good sighting, and if you stray slightly towards the central white line, the steering yanks you back right, just as you're turning the steering left. It's downright dangerous. This is on my route to work.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.91...7i16384!8i8192

A bit further down the same road, the road slowly splits into two lanes, both of which go straight ahead at the next lights. I work shifts and sometimes it's utterly deserted and I KNOW nobody is around to see me indicate (and I would argue indicating is largely pointless anyway here) but if you try to keep right and take the right hand lane, the steering doesn't let you. It's a joke. I'm indicating to avoid the steering deciding it knows better. Technology shouldn't do that.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.92...7i16384!8i8192

And if you think technology is flawless, you only have to look at the speed limit assist. I'd say 10% of the time it's showing an incorrect speed limit.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Bavarian. Based on the imagery, LDW would seem legit. In the former if you're clipping the lane of course it'll be activated. For the latter, yes you should be indicating to signal your lane change even if you believe the area is devoid of human life. Yes it's a conscious decision to use your indicators but that decision should be "am I about to perform a manoeuvre", if yes then indicate your intentions. By actively deciding against alerting other road users, (which includes more than cars) no matter how slim the chance of their presence, you're contributing to a heightened risk of an accident - precisely what technologies like LDW are attempting to minimize. Of course I'm not preaching anything here, I'm sure there are nuances in road safety that everyone has taken liberties with, but that doesn't indicate an issue with the tech to me.

BMW opting to include the ability to permanently turn it off does not strike me as an admission of unsuitability as if it was as severe as you make out then it wouldn't remain on the vehicles. It strikes me as more of a UX issue they're resolving in order to keep continuity. I never said the tech was flawless, but drivers are significantly more dangerous and human factor is no doubt the primary cause of incidents.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Talisman77

For the latter, yes you should be indicating to signal your lane change even if you believe the area is devoid of human life. Yes it's a conscious decision to use your indicators but that decision should be "am I about to perform a manoeuvre", if yes then indicate your intentions.

The above is analogous to driver's ed for "experienced" driver.

Namely, it serves to reinforce muscle memory such that no brain power is expensed to collect data then decide then act on devoid or otherwise.

The end result of getting reconditioned is to not trigger the system, when the car is well centered and lane change intension is well indicated.

I found the above to be quite useful.

That's why now I think blind spot steering intervention can be useful too.

[urbo73]

Man, a lot of preaching here in this thread. I can only hope that all the good drivers in this thread also obey all speed limits and never go above, not even 1mph! Before every drive, I would hope everyone is setting their Speed Limiter accordingly!

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Man, a lot of preaching here in this thread. I can only hope that all the good drivers in this thread also obey all speed limits and never go above, not even 1mph! Before every drive, I would hope everyone is setting their Speed Limiter accordingly!

Thanks for the timely reminders, esp. this weekend(starting Fri) has speed enforcement campaign across 12 western states.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by Talisman77

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Bavarian. Based on the imagery, LDW would seem legit. In the former if you're clipping the lane of course it'll be activated.

And that's the problem!! The technology is getting in the way of driving. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking the racing line round that bend as the sightlines are completely fine. This road is absolutely empty some times of the day, and it allows me to make progress/maintain momentum, or whatever you want to call it (that doesn't mean break the speed limit). But the triggering of the Lane Keeping Assist meant I had to slow down a lot more than necessary to take the bend. That is bad!

It's not as if I'm talking about taking a massive short-cut. I'm talking about edging over the white line slightly, and you've got the steering wheel yanking it back in your hands. It's awful. It's working exactly as it's designed to work, but it simply isn't appropriate in the real world.

If you think driving like that is dangerous then you sound like a nasaly-voiced Nigel (think Rimmer in Red Dwarf). Nobody is breaking the speed limit. Nobody is doing anything dangerous. But the technology is just getting in the way.

Originally Posted by Talisman77

For the latter, yes you should be indicating to signal your lane change even if you believe the area is devoid of human life.

This is complete bollocks. Who exactly is going to see it? This is like the automotive equivalent of "If a tree falls down in the woods, but nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

I indicate when conditions necessitate it. Period.

I'm a pilot. I drive a car like I'm flying an aircraft. I incorporate looking into my mirrors in my "scan". I know who's around me 99% of the time. However, the blind spot assist is useful for that 1%, but it's fine because it doesn't get in the way of my normal driving. The Lane Keeping Assist Intervention does. It's as simple as that.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mofomat

It's not as if I'm talking about taking a massive short-cut. I'm talking about edging over the white line slightly, and you've got the steering wheel yanking it back in your hands. It's awful. It's working exactly as it's designed to work, but it simply isn't appropriate in the real world.

I probably would try to find out how many inches/cm's are needed to "suppress" LDW, and see if that still gets the same speed around the curve.

This may also involve other parameters, e.g. what ZF chooses, 2nd/3rd gear, and throttle response, speed sensors, etc, etc, that the ECU tries to coordinate with LDW.

Is this type of nanny tech common in your aviation cockpit?

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I probably would try to find out how many inches/cm's are needed to "suppress" LDW, and see if that still gets the same speed around the curve.

This may also involve other parameters, e.g. what ZF chooses, 2nd/3rd gear, and throttle response, speed sensors, etc, etc, that the ECU tries to coordinate with LDW.

I don't know what other parameters are, but the main one is it only activates at 70km/h or above (43 mph). Bear in mind there are two elements to this; steering vibration and steering intervention. I have no issue with the steering vibration warning. It's the intervention I have an issue with.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Is this type of nanny tech common in your aviation cockpit?

Most "nanny tech" is there for a reason and doesn't get in the way of pilot operations. Most accidents are caused by human error, and if there is an accident despite the presence of tech designed to prevent them, it's because the human has failed to understand how the technology works. There is a worrying trend of accidents occuring because the pilot is confused as to what the aircraft is doing. The Asiana crash in San Francisco in 2013 is one example of a perfectly serviceable aircraft, in good weather, being flown into the ground, and this was due to the pilots not understanding the auto throttle.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by mofomat

have no issue with the steering vibration warning. It's the intervention I have an issue with.

Exactly, thank you. The bicyclist I narrowly missed after the intervention unexpectedly aimed me directly at him would likely feel similarly.

[anselansel]

it should be turned off, thrown from the car and be hit by others cars until it is a puddle of goo....

in other words I dislike it intensely.....lol

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Exactly, thank you. The bicyclist I narrowly missed after the intervention unexpectedly aimed me directly at him would likely feel similarly.

I did pass bicyclists uneventfully on local roads with lane marker on the left and no marker on the right(no LDW shaking nor intervening). Those roads are around 10-12 ft wide per lane.

Local roads with right markers imply bike lanes on the right such that any vying back to center does not enter the delineated bike lanes.

Maybe the issue is that when roads are less than 10 ft(?) the system is triggered more frequently.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I did pass bicyclists uneventfully on local roads with lane marker on the left and no marker on the right(no LDW shaking nor intervening). Those roads are around 10-12 ft wide per lane.

Local roads with right markers imply bike lanes on the right such that any vying back to center does not enter the delineated bike lanes.

Maybe the issue is that when roads are less than 10 ft(?) the system is triggered more frequently.

The vehicle lanes here are well delineated on both sides. The bike lane at the right side of the asphalt, before the curb, has a solid white lane divider. I have not measured the width. This photo was not the actual road, but a similar image I found.



The problem was my well-intended move to hug the left side of my lane to provide even more clearance to the biker on the right. I was not changing lanes. As I moved to hug the left side, the car jerked itself right. I did not wait to see if it would wind up in the middle...it was aimed at the bike, so I immediately fought to turn left again.

This was a surprise in a service loaner. If I am ever so unfortunate to have a vehicle with this feature, I will find a way to permanenty disable it.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The problem was my well-intended move to hug the left side of my lane to provide even more clearance to the biker on the right. I was not changing lanes. As I moved to hug the left side, the car jerked itself right. I did not wait to see if it would wind up in the middle...it was aimed at the bike, so I immediately fought to turn left again.

This was a surprise in a service loaner. If I am ever so unfortunate to have a vehicle with this feature, I will find a way to permanenty disable it.

Our local roads are similar too, and initially the car did steer back(luckily with no bikes@bike lanes) while I was going a bit too fast and too close to left marker. I can't remember for sure, but I think the car did intervene again when the car approached the right marker.

Naturally I was reconditioned to slow down at that sweeping bend.

The high speed makes LDW intervene quickly.

[Talisman77]

Originally Posted by mofomat

And that's the problem!! The technology is getting in the way of driving. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking the racing line round that bend as the sightlines are completely fine. This road is absolutely empty some times of the day, and it allows me to make progress/maintain momentum, or whatever you want to call it (that doesn't mean break the speed limit). But the triggering of the Lane Keeping Assist meant I had to slow down a lot more than necessary to take the bend. That is bad!

It's not as if I'm talking about taking a massive short-cut. I'm talking about edging over the white line slightly, and you've got the steering wheel yanking it back in your hands. It's awful. It's working exactly as it's designed to work, but it simply isn't appropriate in the real world.

If you think driving like that is dangerous then you sound like a nasaly-voiced Nigel (think Rimmer in Red Dwarf). Nobody is breaking the speed limit. Nobody is doing anything dangerous. But the technology is just getting in the way.




This is complete bollocks. Who exactly is going to see it? This is like the automotive equivalent of "If a tree falls down in the woods, but nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

I indicate when conditions necessitate it. Period.

I'm a pilot. I drive a car like I'm flying an aircraft. I incorporate looking into my mirrors in my "scan". I know who's around me 99% of the time. However, the blind spot assist is useful for that 1%, but it's fine because it doesn't get in the way of my normal driving. The Lane Keeping Assist Intervention does. It's as simple as that.

It's a lane-keeping assistant, and you're complaining about it keeping the lane I find it hard to believe the roads were designed to not be controllable within the centre of the road (to within the parameters of LDW) at the max listed speed there. I'm sure it's possible, but if you're veering over the line then yes the function is valid. And if you do anticipate driving outside that threshold then of course, deactivating it is a viable workaround. I already stated I'm in favour of more choice for the driver although I imagine for 99% of people LDW is of more use than it isn't. It'd certainly be safer to only remain off until the next run which is why BMW engineers would've decided to have it act that way in the first place.

Also, never said it was dangerous to edge over a line

As for the indicating, that falls to a correction of habits. Something my CFI once said was that the most worrying thing he's ever heard was a student telling him "that's the way we've always done it" - because that's what gets you killed. Getting into the right habits is part and parcel of both driving and flying, and LDW is just geared towards safer habits on the road. But as urbo succinctly put, nobody's perfect and we all rock the boat a little.

That said, if you turn off TCAS when nobody's around too then I think I'll steer clear of your AO Anyway we're getting off track. TLDR if you like it great, if you don't at least BMW now allow it to be perma-off.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Talisman77

It's a lane-keeping assistant, and you're complaining about it keeping the lane

Your point is valid, namely, speeders complaining about LDW does not make sense.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by Talisman77

It's a lane-keeping assistant, and you're complaining about it keeping the lane

No, that's not what I'm complaining about. I was complaining about a system not being able to be switched off permanently, but that's now been solved.

Originally Posted by Talisman77

Also, never said it was dangerous to edge over a line

So you're advocating a system interfering in something which isn't even dangerous?

Originally Posted by Talisman77

Getting into the right habits is part and parcel of both driving and flying, and LDW is just geared towards safer habits on the road.

And for the 99% of people who won't bother to turn it off, life will carry on as usual. And I still leave the vibration part of the system activated as that is less intrusive.

Originally Posted by Talisman77

That said, if you turn off TCAS when nobody's around too then I think I'll steer clear of your AO

There is absolutely no argument for switching TCAS off, so it's incongruous to the discussion of switching off the steering intervention part of the Lane Keeping Assist.

As I say, if a safety system is intruding into areas which are not dangerous to the point you want to deactivate it, then it's not a good safety system.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Your point is valid, namely, speeders complaining about LDW does not make sense.

The Speed Limit Assist allows you to set the target speed ABOVE the actual speed limit. Why even have that as an option if speeding is so black and white dangerous?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mofomat

The Speed Limit Assist allows you to set the target speed ABOVE the actual speed limit. Why even have that as an option if speeding is so black and white dangerous?

Variable speed limits and cameras on the M roads take care of those who refuse to learn, so drivers can choose to ignore speed limit warnings(does cockpit pro sync up to variable speed?) and keep paying.

On bendy local roads currently without cameras, LDW is useful to stay in lane at posted speed, just in case the cameras/lidars suddenly appear.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by mofomat

I incorporate looking into my mirrors in my "scan". I know who's around me 99% of the time. However, the blind spot assist is useful for that 1%, but it's fine because it doesn't get in the way of my normal driving. The Lane Keeping Assist Intervention does. It's as simple as that.

This is it right here, 100%. Blind spot assistant can be useful when you have a car barreling down the lane next to you at a very high speed when you're about to switch lanes - for that 1% mentioned. Lane assist was I think designed for people that fall asleep at the wheel, people that text, or people that simply aren't paying attention to the road. And for that, it could work. The "if you are driving correctly, it shouldn't intervene" argument works just about as much as "if you are driving correctly at the track, DSC ON shouldn't interfere" - they both interfere in many cases and are not predictable.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Blind spot assistant can be useful when you have a car barreling down the lane next to you at a very high speed when you're about to switch lanes - for that 1% mentioned. Lane assist was I think designed for people that fall asleep at the wheel, people that text, or people that simply aren't paying attention to the road. And for that, it could work.

Actually BSD and LDW compliment each other esp. when both steering interventions are enabled.

When driver lane changes without signal, LDW shakes and intervenes if driver misses a car barreling down the lane next to him(the left marker is the barrier for LDW).

When driver lane changes with signal(LDW bypassed), BSD blinks and intervenes if driver misses a car barreling down the lane next to him.

This tag team approach is quite useful from my perspective.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mofomat

I incorporate looking into my mirrors in my "scan". I know who's around me 99% of the time. However, the blind spot assist is useful for that 1%, but it's fine because it doesn't get in the way of my normal driving. The Lane Keeping Assist Intervention does. It's as simple as that.

BSD intervention(if enabled) only activates when turn signal is on.

If LDW intervention is disabled, and driver changes lane without turn signal(thinking no one is around like you said?), in that 1% you miss the car barreling down the lane next to you, BSD will not intervene.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Variable speed limits and cameras on the M roads take care of those who refuse to learn, so drivers can choose to ignore speed limit warnings(does cockpit pro sync up to variable speed?) and keep paying.

This doesn't answer the question at all.

People who choose to speed can do so without the cruise control activated. The question is, when using the Speed Limit Assist function (therefore cruise control is activated), why do BMW even bother to have a functionality which allows the car to automatically reduce speed to a level above the speed limit? They're recognise people live in the real world and have enabled you to break the speed limit then.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

On bendy local roads currently without cameras, LDW is useful to stay in lane at posted speed, just in case the cameras/lidars suddenly appear.

If anybody needs assistance to stay in lane on a twisty road at or below the speed limit then they shouldn't be behind the wheel of a vehicle.