[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

That's not true. All torque converter autos can't go much above 7000rpm.

Plenty of turbo cars rev to 8000 + such as the McLaren V8, heck even the EB110 did.

Not to mention the S55 with a 7600 rpm redline...

[RowanBuds]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

It's not DCT vs ZF that limits RPM, but turbos.

Nooo, not at all. It's fluid cavitation in a Torque Converter/AT box that limits RPM.

Most automotive turbochargers will see rates at the turbine well above 100,000 rpm when providing boost, a 7,000 to 8,000 rpm swing isn't going to scare them off at all from the engine revolution count side.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

Nooo, not at all. It's fluid cavitation in a Torque Converter/AT box that limits RPM.

Most automotive turbochargers will see rates at the turbine well above 100,000 rpm when providing boost, a 7,000 to 8,000 rpm swing isn't going to scare them off at all from the engine revolution count side.

Originally Posted by brad850csi

That's not true. All torque converter autos can't go much above 7000rpm.

Plenty of turbo cars rev to 8000 + such as the McLaren V8, heck even the EB110 did.

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Not to mention the S55 with a 7600 rpm redline...

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

Nooo, not at all. It's fluid cavitation in a Torque Converter/AT box that limits RPM.

Most automotive turbochargers will see rates at the turbine well above 100,000 rpm when providing boost, a 7,000 to 8,000 rpm swing isn't going to scare them off at all from the engine revolution count side.

OK I learned something new. Tnx.

[goj]

Originally Posted by Vectors2final

Not when the car is going to probably push 4000+ lbs after the AWD is added. I could buy that argument if the weight stays the same.

Going this route doesn't widen the gap in the segment. Mercedes and the like can easily surpass this in their next iterations. Who knows maybe I'm wrong, but this last generation was a toss up for those looking at the competition.

Then stick to the 503hp competition rwd set up which will be the set up of most enthusiasts that don't need an AWD car.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by Pic18

It is funny that the arguments back and forth are mostly about manual vs auto, but I think one of my biggest concerns about the G80 is the switch from DCT to auto. As someone who has driven the current DCT's (although I own a 6MT) and the F90 with the auto, I was pretty disappointed in both the manual shifting in the 8AT and automatic algorithm for shifting. Maybe it was because it was a new car, and I didn't play with all the modes that much, but I definitely prefer the DCT's I have driven as far as feel and control over the ZF 8AT.

I'd rather see the old SMG return than the lifeless ZF8. SMG was 140ms faster than the PDK.

THé fundamental problem though is most normal types out there buying an auto thought SMG shifted too rough and didn't know or care that it was an amazing piece of technology.

SMGIII tried to fix that with the soft shift mode button thing but the damage was done.

DCT was more way more reliable and just a bit slower than SMGIII but essentially the average customer does not care how fast or satisfying the shift is.


'Why is my $80k top of the line BMW M3 so jerky when it shifts? Is it broken?'

ZF8 is smooth and allows a hybrid motor to help emissions stats. Racing tech in cars is dead

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

I'd rather see the old SMG return than the lifeless ZF8. SMG was 140ms faster than the PDK.

THé fundamental problem though is most normal types out there buying an auto thought SMG shifted too rough and didn't know or care that it was an amazing piece of technology.

SMGIII tried to fix that with the soft shift mode button thing but the damage was done.

DCT was more way more reliable and just a bit slower than SMGIII but essentially the average customer does not care how fast or satisfying the shift is.


'Why is my $80k top of the line BMW M3 so jerky when it shifts? Is it broken?'

ZF8 is smooth and allows a hybrid motor to help emissions stats. Racing tech in cars is dead

DCT is faster than SMG?

[Marco_monti]

what pisses me off about this is that the competition edition is gonna be a wait and wont be available at launch just like the S variants at mercedes i dont wanna wait 6 months from release of the m3 to get a competition version! hopefully its an option straight out the box

[M3GymNut]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Driving a manual is a giant pain in the ass. We work 3x harder per mile (and we know it) and when people's faces light up with glee when we respond in the affirmative to the question "is it stick?" it reinforces our already misguided grandiosity.

I don't think driving a manual is a pain in the ass. I also drive in really bad Miami traffic. The irony of it is I get bored if I'm not driving a manual.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by Marco_monti

what pisses me off about this is that the competition edition is gonna be a wait and wont be available at launch just like the S variants at mercedes i dont wanna wait 6 months from release of the m3 to get a competition version! hopefully its an option straight out the box

Well Competition (ZCP) cars used to take a few years before they were released and although it is on one hand a marketing ploy to reinvigorate sales, it was also an opportunity for BMW to look at what people were saying about the car and any issues that came up and address them. If the Comp models come out at or near the launch, we loose this opportunity to address/fix any of the base models shortcomings.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by M3GymNut

I don't think driving a manual is a pain in the ass. I also drive in really bad Miami traffic. The irony of it is I get bored if I'm not driving a manual.

I drive in NYC all day and I never get bored. When I rent a car on vacation I actually miss it.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by goj

Then stick to the 503hp competition rwd set up which will be the set up of most enthusiasts that don't need an AWD car.

Keep in mind the AMG is right at 4,000 lbs. The M3/M4 will be at least 200 lbs. lighter (conservative estimate) and you can still use it in 2WD.

[goj]

Originally Posted by Dethsupp0rt

Keep in mind the AMG is right at 4,000 lbs. The M3/M4 will be at least 200 lbs. lighter (conservative estimate) and you can still use it in 2WD.

True lol there's great reasons to go either AWD or RWd

[KTN]

Originally Posted by goj

True lol there's great reasons to go either AWD or RWd

Especially when you can go "all-rear drive" in your AWD.

[goj]

Originally Posted by KTN

Especially when you can go "all-rear drive" in your AWD.

See I would never do that, might as well use the AWD if you choose to suffer the weight penalty

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

DCT is faster than SMG?

Official figures have the SMG at 60ms per shift and PDK at 200 ms.

SMG has to be in special 6 bars mode to do this which was kind of hidden like Launch mode for no apparent reason behind some random button presses and couldn't be accessed simply with the shift speed button.

BMW still uses an SMG transmission in its race cars (M8 GTE for example). We just get ZF slushers because too many people complained about the race transmission.

Actually Porsche runs an SMG gearbox and not a PDK in their race cars as well.

Of course, race cars get rebuilt every race and nobody wants to do that for their daily

A human bean with a stick caps out at around 500.

[captainaudio]

"For your human-powered shifting to be optimum:
Think smooth.Shifts must be nigh imperceptible to the tires.
Like buttah, so to speak. Both up and down. Up shifts are easier because the engine revs fall when you lift, but the driver must time it so the clutch release is exactly at the moment the revs match, with zero clutch slip. Always have the clutch up before you get to the power. If it sounds anything like when you pull away from a stop, that’s bad for the clutch. No slip. And, it must be done as quickly as possible, but with no stress on the box."

Randy Pobst



And smooth shifts that are imperceptible to the tires are also what an ideal automatic or paddle shifted transmission should accomplish regardless what technology is being utilized to accomplish the shift.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

A human bean with a stick caps out at around 500.

Far from it. A really good drag racer is much closer to the best SMG/automated shift speeds...and using something like a clutchless Jerico or G-force transmission gets the pro shift speed another chunk quicker than a clutched trans. 500ms is what some average person with zero drag racing skills might achieve without knowledge of how to actually drive the car for all out acceleration.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

Official figures have the SMG at 60ms per shift and PDK at 200 ms.

SMG has to be in special 6 bars mode to do this which was kind of hidden like Launch mode for no apparent reason behind some random button presses and couldn't be accessed simply with the shift speed button.

BMW still uses an SMG transmission in its race cars (M8 GTE for example). We just get ZF slushers because too many people complained about the race transmission.

Actually Porsche runs an SMG gearbox and not a PDK in their race cars as well.

Of course, race cars get rebuilt every race and nobody wants to do that for their daily

A human bean with a stick caps out at around 500.

You've conflated the idea of a true Sequential Manual Transmission:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequen...l_transmission

with BMW's as-branded "SMG" electro-hydraulic manual transmission:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...l_transmission

BMW had never used a true SMG gearbox in a road car, and other than perhaps (a big maybe) some obscure exotic supercar, no other manufacturer has either. The "sequential manual transmission"s that are mentioned in the above article from Ferrari and Maserati are also not true SMG gearboxes which (as mentioned in the first article) by design can a) only be shifted sequentially b) have no automatic shift mode.

BMW's SMG in "I", "II", or "III" evolutions does not offer superior overall performance to their DCT transmissions. There is more to shifting than the time it takes to engage a gear. In a DCT, the shift process maybe be slower, but you can start the shift while the car is still in the soon-to-be prior gear so the total time to the next gear is less than the 100ms or whatever time it took to complete the shift.

[captainaudio]

I never spoke to a professional race car driver that liked the SMG of the E46 generation M3. They felt that the shifts were too jerky and that they upset the car. I have heard nothing but praise for the ZF 8 Speed in the M235R Factory Racer.

A number of years ago I attended a BMW sponsored test drive of the E9x M3. Before we took the cars out for a drive there was a presentation from representatives of BMW that were there from Germany. Several of the people from BMW were engineers from the M team. One of the participants asked one of the engineers how the SMG from the E46 compared to the DCT in the E90. Her response was "The SMG was crap".

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Far from it. A really good drag racer is much closer to the best SMG/automated shift speeds...and using something like a clutchless Jerico or G-force transmission gets the pro shift speed another chunk quicker than a clutched trans. 500ms is what some average person with zero drag racing skills might achieve without knowledge of how to actually drive the car for all out acceleration.

Are you or any one of us a professional drag racer? Talking about what a drag racer can do isn't realistic for any of us normal people.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Are you or any one of us a professional drag racer? Talking about what a drag racer can do isn't realistic for any of us normal people.

Nope, but 44 years of driving manuals, many strip visits with lots of different cars over the years, etc, I know for a fact I can shift (using a clutch stab too) far, far faster the 0.5 seconds. Similarly to nailing down a quick 60' time...balancing weight transfer with clutch engagement and throttle...it takes a lot of practice and skill to nail it just right. Just because someone isn't competent at driving a manual transmission very, very quickly isn't a reason to proclaim the manual shift speed at some arcane level. I might as well say that SMG set to shift speed 1 is very slow...it's almost useless information.

[adc]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

No one would buy an M car with an NA 6 cylinder engine. There's a reason they went with a V8 for the E90 M3 and had to go twin turbos for the F80 M3. Even if you don't care about the power, most of the public buying these cars do. It'd be virtually impossible to make a relatively reliable production car with an N/A 6 cylinder motor making more than 350hp.

You mean the way Porsche does? I believe they’re over the 500BHP mark currently.

Anyway, their cars weigh significantly less and so can make do with much less torque.