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G80 BMW M3 and M4 General Topics BMW M3 (G80), M4 (G82), CSL and 3.0 CSL General Forum

View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 235 60.57%
I prefer a traditional AT. 32 8.25%
Either is fine with me. 53 13.66%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 68 17.53%
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll

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      06-12-2020, 02:07 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Every passing day I'm more convinced BMW will have the CSL/GTS have the DCT. RWD only and it'll be automatic, but the DCT is sportier than the ZF

In the end we're getting what people have been asking for. BMW used to build an M3 for ~70k with all the goodies, but now they're copying the Porsche business model that unless you have money for a GT3 you are a peasant.

In this new peasant mentality, BMW M does things like:
-gives F8X 1.3g oil threshold vs 1.4g on E9X. Gives GTS 1.4g
-removes CF driveshaft from F8X, only gives CS/GTS versions the CF goodies
-breaks what the E9X fixed in terms of fuel starvation. Now the F8X fuel starves like there is no tomorrow. GTS is supposed to have a fix

and I bet with the G8X generation this will extend to the DCT. If you are a peasant you will wind up with a auto which will be a liability at the track. If you are not a peasant you will be able to access a DCT.
Well I don't mind paying 100K for DCT M4CS with all of the goodies the current generation has but if it comes with slush box that goes against the character of the car AND is heavier I see absolutely no reason to pay that much money where I can find lightly used CS/GTS for less. Not to mention the ugliness G8x is expected to conceive.
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      06-12-2020, 05:47 AM   #332
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The M3/M4 is a road legal car, but still more sporty than the normal 3/4 Series. It meant to be used primarily on the road, not the track.
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      06-12-2020, 06:58 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
The M3/M4 is a road legal car, but still more sporty than the normal 3/4 Series. It meant to be used primarily on the road, not the track.
Sure, but M3/4s have always been track-worthy steet cars with minimal modification needed for proper track work. So I disagree that Ms should diverge further from this motorsport gene by switching to an AT. Like SYT_Shadow said, a future CS or CSL model should use a DCT.
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      06-12-2020, 08:15 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Well I don't mind paying 100K for DCT M4CS with all of the goodies the current generation has but if it comes with slush box that goes against the character of the car AND is heavier I see absolutely no reason to pay that much money where I can find lightly used CS/GTS for less. Not to mention the ugliness G8x is expected to conceive.
GTS prices are already climbing. They hit a low of 69k in the US and now the cheapest one is 85k. In a few years it'll be more expensive than new.

I was planning on returning my CS in 2 years and getting the G8X, but now I think I will keep the CS. I really like the DCT.

The Motorsport gene is very much alive in the F8X generation
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      06-12-2020, 08:16 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Sure, but M3/4s have always been track-worthy steet cars with minimal modification needed for proper track work. So I disagree that Ms should diverge further from this motorsport gene by switching to an AT. Like SYT_Shadow said, a future CS or CSL model should use a DCT.
Completely correct. That's why it's the only one of its competitors that comes with the space for massive wheel/tire combinations and why you see it testing at the Ring more than all its competitors combined.

Street cars that can easily and cheaply be turned into track monsters. It is not some kind of accident that competitions like AER, where people can run whatever car they want, are 80% BMWs
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      06-13-2020, 03:06 PM   #336
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I googled this because I noticed no scream when kickdown / downshifting in M8 , didnt like it. It is more visible in rolling race bmw m8 vs bmw m2 video.

its getting worse in each generation.
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      07-07-2020, 07:55 PM   #337
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Let's talk about the transmission some more

Over the last two years, I have been reviewing the G8x images and info. As a previous person indicated, the engine and transmission have taken a distant back seat to the looks (in particular the grille) of the next generation M3/M4. More powerful...faster...option for AWD. All positive changes. I love my F80...have never reached ceiling of vehicle in 5 years, but I have grown attached to the DCT. It's not a PDK, but I enjoy having the equivalent of a F1 transmission at that price point. This is what I will miss if I upgrade to the G8x.
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      07-07-2020, 09:09 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
Over the last two years, I have been reviewing the G8x images and info. As a previous person indicated, the engine and transmission have taken a distant back seat to the looks (in particular the grille) of the next generation M3/M4. More powerful...faster...option for AWD. All positive changes. I love my F80...have never reached ceiling of vehicle in 5 years, but I have grown attached to the DCT. It's not a PDK, but I enjoy having the equivalent of a F1 transmission at that price point. This is what I will miss if I upgrade to the G8x.
I am a big advocate of dual clutch transmissions, but F1 use sequential single clutch transmissions, just like the majority of purpose built race cars.
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      07-07-2020, 09:25 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
Over the last two years, I have been reviewing the G8x images and info. As a previous person indicated, the engine and transmission have taken a distant back seat to the looks (in particular the grille) of the next generation M3/M4. More powerful...faster...option for AWD. All positive changes. I love my F80...have never reached ceiling of vehicle in 5 years, but I have grown attached to the DCT. It's not a PDK, but I enjoy having the equivalent of a F1 transmission at that price point. This is what I will miss if I upgrade to the G8x.
Have you driven an M5 or M8? I have, and I don’t think I noticed any substantial difference. The ZF 8 speed shifts really fast.
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      07-07-2020, 09:28 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
Have you driven an M5 or M8? I have, and I don’t think I noticed any substantial difference. The ZF 8 speed shifts really fast.
I have recently test driven an F90 M5 back to back with my DCT M4cs and a PDK 992 C4. Great car, but my biggest dissapointment with it is the transmission. It feels sluggish and heavy compared to a dual clutch.
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      07-07-2020, 09:34 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
Have you driven an M5 or M8? I have, and I don't think I noticed any substantial difference. The ZF 8 speed shifts really fast.
The '18 F80 I drove had dct and it is an amazing transmission. It was jerky a lot going down to stops and taking off from a stop. So with some finesse it got much better. My water spilled a lot out of my cup while driving into work.

My FIL had a '13 M5 and just upgraded to a '20 M5 and the new M5 is probably the fastest car I've ever been in. It's a monster and I can tell you the motor pulls so hard you don't really think about the new transmission. The AWD just shines and overshadows everything.

I would imagine the new G80 will be the same way.
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      07-07-2020, 09:44 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I have recently test driven an F90 M5 back to back with my DCT M4cs and a PDK 992 C4. Great car, but my biggest dissapointment with it is the transmission. It feels sluggish and heavy compared to a dual clutch.
I'm really really supriced but I do not track, at least not regular.

I drove the M8 Comp and M5 Comp over multiple weekends and would disagree with you!
The only thing is ... Both the M5 & M8 are super easy to drive, maybe just too easy.
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      07-07-2020, 09:50 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by LOW4LYF View Post
I'm really really supriced but I do not track, at least not regular.

I drove the M8 Comp and M5 Comp over multiple weekends and would disagree with you!
The only thing is ... Both the M5 & M8 are super easy to drive, maybe just too easy.
I guess it depends what you are after. The 8AT is more refined and comfortable as a daily driver, but lacks the crispness of a DCT on track. The move to the 8AT is probably what will have me change camps after 20 years of M3/4 ownership.
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      07-08-2020, 06:20 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am a big advocate of dual clutch transmissions, but F1 use sequential single clutch transmissions, just like the majority of purpose built race cars.
F1 used single clutch
Now they use dog clutch Which would be awesome in M but the are jerky (SMG wasn't very popular becuase if this) and they are loud in terms of road noise.
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      07-08-2020, 07:09 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
F1 used single clutch
Now they use dog clutch Which would be awesome in M but the are jerky (SMG wasn't very popular becuase if this) and they are loud in terms of road noise.
Not sure what you mean by this. As far as I know, F1 still have a friction clutch to de-couple the engine from the transmission and is used for starts and downshifts. Dog clutches couple the gears to the shaft just like in any manual, sequential or DCT transmission, nothing special here...
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      07-09-2020, 07:24 PM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
Have you driven an M5 or M8? I have, and I don’t think I noticed any substantial difference. The ZF 8 speed shifts really fast.
The ZF does shift fast, it's the shift response times from the paddle inputs that is extremely delayed compared to the DCT. The lower ratio's of the 8 speed also means redline comes up really quick, so you gotta pull the first gear paddle at like 5.5k to not bump into redline, it's beyond stupid.

The DCT programming in the M5 and M6 was much better than the M3/M4 too, it never suffered from those lazy upshifts at part throttle like the M3/M4. I never drove a CS version though, maybe that was fixed.
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      07-09-2020, 08:20 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
Have you driven an M5 or M8? I have, and I don’t think I noticed any substantial difference. The ZF 8 speed shifts really fast.
It's an automatic. Who cares?
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      07-10-2020, 12:21 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somer View Post
The ZF does shift fast, it's the shift response times from the paddle inputs that is extremely delayed compared to the DCT.
I have seen this comment before but I have no idea where it spawned from. As an owner of an actual vehicle sporting the transmission I haven't found that to be the case at all and haven't seen that noted in any Supra reviews either. I don't have the time in an F80 DCT to compare but paddle inputs are as quick or quicker than a VAG DSG IMO.
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      07-10-2020, 04:07 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I have seen this comment before but I have no idea where it spawned from. As an owner of an actual vehicle sporting the transmission I haven't found that to be the case at all and haven't seen that noted in any Supra reviews either. I don't have the time in an F80 DCT to compare but paddle inputs are as quick or quicker than a VAG DSG IMO.
Not sure how much VW/Audi have improved this, but the last time I drove one of these was on a 3.2L Audi TT that I got as a loaner when my MT was in for service. I was excited to try it (given the marketing blurb about how fast it shifted), but as an MT driver of many years I found it borderline undriveable. The lag between driver inputs and a shift actually happening were frustrating - especially downshifts.

That put me off trying an BMW DCT for many years - but eventually I did with my second E92, and subsequently in both my F82s. There was a huge difference between the M-DCT in these cars and the VAG DSG that I drove. When I drive a ZF8 in an X3M, I find it's relatively responsive to upshift inputs, but laggy on downshifts. Of course, all things are relative - it's a huge improvement over previous BMW ATs, and for those who are happy to let the car make the gear decisions then they probably won't notice.
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      07-15-2020, 03:11 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somer View Post
The ZF does shift fast, it's the shift response times from the paddle inputs that is extremely delayed compared to the DCT. The lower ratio's of the 8 speed also means redline comes up really quick, so you gotta pull the first gear paddle at like 5.5k to not bump into redline, it's beyond stupid.

The DCT programming in the M5 and M6 was much better than the M3/M4 too, it never suffered from those lazy upshifts at part throttle like the M3/M4. I never drove a CS version though, maybe that was fixed.
I can't agree having had F10 M5 MDCT, F80 M3 MDCT and now the M ZF8 in the X3M the shift/paddle reaction times as observed by the driver are no different.

Your description about pulling the paddle at 5.5k to make sure the gearbox changes at 7k+ is absurd it's no different to the MDCT pull the paddle and it changes.
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      07-15-2020, 03:17 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
I can't agree having had F10 M5 MDCT, F80 M3 MDCT and now the M ZF8 in the X3M the shift/paddle reaction times as observed by the driver are no different.

Your description about pulling the paddle at 5.5k to make sure the gearbox changes at 7k+ is absurd it's no different to the MDCT pull the paddle and it changes.
It's interesting to read near diametric opposite testimonials/viewpoints about the same thing. One person says shift times suck while an owner states the shift time differences are indiscernible.
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      07-15-2020, 04:10 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's interesting to read near diametric opposite testimonials/viewpoints about the same thing. One person says shift times suck while an owner states the shift time differences are indiscernible.
Having just been out of blast this afternoon in the X3M and pulled that paddle with my ham fist I can confirm it changes gear when you ask it to right up to the red line. (maybe the difference is I've actually had experience with both)

I think I have said on this thread or perhaps another the M ZF8 is the least of any prospective G80 M3/4 owners worries.
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