[shoei]

Originally Posted by M2C_OZ

I hope these are not the official rear caliper set up

Those are the size of the rear calipers for CCB's on the current gen... Looks off, I 100% agree but it's normal. Go look at the AMG's (carbon) and here's 992 GT3 brake set up.

In other words, yeah, sadly, those are most likely how they'll look...

[sharocks]

Sounds terrible and the grills are terrible too.

BOOOOO!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by solstice

I saw 23 cruising from Munich to Bologna in my euro delivery, that's the best I've seen. Maybe I need a software update mine was delivered in June 2014. Or maybe not if an updated fuel map will impact power delivery...

I was able to recreate this on my '15 (...delivered around the time you bought yours; we were both early adopters) and on my '17 delivered Oct of 2016.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Keep in mind, too, that as "cool and unique" as those motors you mentioned were, people constantly complained about the horrible gas mileage, among other things. Usher in the S55 with more power/torque AND much better mileage. There will always be something.

I had a 2008 E60 M5 for 7 years and sure it sounded so cool, but the rest of the time, it wasn't all that great. It was a compromise. I couldn't drive further than 250 miles before needing to get gas so that was frequent and annoying. If I drove it on the streets only, then I'd have to get gas after 150 miles. It gets old folks. Nobody wants to keep going to the station and plunking down $60-70 every 2-3 days. I'd average 8-12mpg in the city and if I was lucky 16-18 max on the fwy. Could anyone pull on me in 3rd of 4th gear from 100mph? Nope. Was it worth it. Nope. That's just gas mileage. The car needed Ferrari like maintenance and when the idle throttle acutauators went out, damn, that was a quick $1600x2. Then there was always the threat of the SMGIII pump dieing. There's another $7k. Then there's the rod bearings...need I go on?

When the F80 came out, it was a no brainer to upgrade. Same-ish power, way more low end grunt, more reliability, more sporty, about the same size as an E39 M5 (the perfect M car), so it was VERY easy to move on. So happy that BMW moved away from that NA V10. It was just way too over the top for a BMW and nobody wants to deal with that level of maintenance outside of warranty.

So yeah, I can say with experience that some people on here might say they love the F1 V10 sound (I know I loved it), but the trade offs are many and none of them are worth it unless you have close to unlimited bankroll to keep one to drive 1-2x a week. Plus when driving it, you literally have to keep the revs up to have some semblance of power, which is cool at first, but then makes you look like you're constantly trying to race everyone and that is lame, unless you are like 16 years old.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by Downeaster1

Only the back end, as they are both parked nosed-in to the service bays, and they look identical to the leaked pics, so not much so say. I only mentioned it because if there is anyone out there dedicated enough, they usually take them out later at night (past 10pm).


I'm not getting fired like the last guy, so no.

I may go wait around there tonight if its not raining to see if I can catch it out in the wild.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

I had a 2008 E60 M5 for 7 years and sure it sounded so cool, but the rest of the time, it wasn't all that great. It was a compromise. I couldn't drive further than 250 miles before needing to get gas so that was frequent and annoying. If I drove it on the streets only, then I'd have to get gas after 150 miles. It gets old folks. Nobody wants to keep going to the station and plunking down $60-70 every 2-3 days. I'd average 8-12mpg in the city and if I was lucky 16-18 max on the fwy. Could anyone pull on me in 3rd of 4th gear from 100mph? Nope. Was it worth it. Nope. That's just gas mileage. The car needed Ferrari like maintenance and when the idle throttle acutauators went out, damn, that was a quick $1600x2. Then there was always the threat of the SMGIII pump dieing. There's another $7k. Then there's the rod bearings...need I go on?

When the F80 came out, it was a no brainer to upgrade. Same-ish power, way more low end grunt, more reliability, more sporty, about the same size as an E39 M5 (the perfect M car), so it was VERY easy to move on. So happy that BMW moved away from that NA V10. It was just way too over the top for a BMW and nobody wants to deal with that level of maintenance outside of warranty.

So yeah, I can say with experience that some people on here might say they love the F1 V10 sound (I know I loved it), but the trade offs are many and none of them are worth it unless you have close to unlimited bankroll to keep one to drive 1-2x a week. Plus when driving it, you literally have to keep the revs up to have some semblance of power, which is cool at first, but then makes you look like you're constantly trying to race everyone and that is lame, unless you are like 16 years old.

I heard that Sedan_Clan had asked Porsche if an engine swap was possible in a 991 GT3 to the high mileage, flat TQ curve 4 banger Turbo from the Boxer to avoid that vile, peaky and thirsty 9k rpm NA engine, was that just a rumour or true Sedan_Clan

[Law]

We all know the pros & cons of high-revving NA engines and it's a debate that will surely continue to have both proponents & detractors.

But, that first decade of the 21st century will be remembered as the pinnacle of BMW M's pushing the envelope for engine development and incorporating motorsport elements through technology transfer from motorsports (the Williams & Sauber Formula One programs in particular), with the S85 & her younger sister engine S65 being the embodiment of that philosophy & beneficiaries of that trickle-down DNA.

And I'd certainly group the S54 with the S85 & S65 in that 'golden era' of BMW M engine development where piston speeds & ECU computations rivaled Formula One engines.

That's not to say the engines that came before weren't incredible, either.
The S38 is legendary, as is the S70/2 in the McLaren F1.
But we will never again see a brand-new F1 sedan ever again.
Just the fact that an 8250RPM V10 5-series was even sold is as astonishing to me 15 years later as the day it was unveiled.

I know in the real world, all these bragging rights and motorsport tech for cars that are mainly driven to the office & back are more of a liability than something that is truly appreciated, especially as the cars age, and this is reflected in the used car market.
However, the comparisons must also be fair and respectful of the time period of the particular engine or vehicle we are comparing.
We can't just look purely at numbers and say an M550i is 'better' than an E39 M5, for example. The modern M550i is better on paper and for all intents and purposes, the one you would choose for a daily driver with all else being equal, but that's not why the E39 M5 is remembered so fondly.

So when speaking of contemporary achievements for the time period, a car like the E60 M5, when brand new, was more astonishing than something like an F10 M5 brand new.
This is subjective, of course, but at the end of the day, the E60 M5 was as close to an F1 sedan as you could get
And even if we take away the marketing lingo, it was a supercar drivetrain with sedan bodywork...a supercar with 4-doors. From that perspective, one could certainly forgive the horrendous gas mileage and supercar-like maintenance nightmares as underneath that sedan sheetmetal, what lies underneath is something more akin to an mid-engined exotic than a 535i.
Mind you, the closest competitor equivalents to the S85 & S65 all powered supercars & exotics. In fact, generally speaking, 8 and 10-cylinder engines with individual throttles and stratospheric redlines are generally only found in supercars.
That's the kind of caliber the BMW M engineers were at and they have earned numerous engine awards & accolades from that time period to show for it.

The F10 M5, on the other hand, was a very fast 5 Series...supercar fast, yes, but without the same kind of soul.

Which goes back to the whole proponent vs. detractor of the NA M-Engines.
For detractors, the bloodline, philosophy, and emotion that goes into engines like the S85 are outweighed by practicality, real-world numbers, and perhaps even common sense; what is the point of supercar-like maintenance of a 'race' engine to get groceries and drive to work...all the while having to work the engine harder to keep up with modern traffic? And that's an excellent argument - On paper, there is no point of a having to rev-out a V8 and get 17 MPG when an Inline 6 Turbo can smoke it while getting better gas mileage, and that's exactly why these engines were retired. Somewhere along the road, the logical argument won out against the emotional argument at the meeting table at BMW M.

For proponents, no amount of logic or figures on paper can supplant the visceral experience and the emotional theater that goes with driving a thoroughbred powerplant underneath the humble sedan body, even if it means the constant anxiety of potential mechanical & financial liability. It comes down to the emotional element of the entire experience, from startup & idle, slowly immersing into the smooth powerband and sonorous sound, to the high of the redline. Because during those brief highs, taking the engine to the upper echelons of the 8000+ RPM rev-range coupled with the noise & response from the individual throttle bodies...during that moment....nothing else matters.


It all comes down to whether or not that emotional element is critical to the BMW M experience. That's up to us on the individual level to decide.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.
No statement is truer and nothing else summarizes the whole visceral NA vs. Turbo argument than that sentence above.

Or you can have both as many members here do.


And to steer this thread back on topic, I, like most of you here, am patiently waiting for a better video of the exhaust noise.
All in good time.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Law

Mind you, the closest competitor equivalents to the S85 & S65 all powered supercars & exotics. In fact, generally speaking, 8 and 10-cylinder engines with individual throttles and stratospheric redlines are generally only found in supercars.
That's the kind of caliber the BMW M engineers were at and they have earned numerous engine awards & accolades from that time period to show for it.

The F10 M5, on the other hand, was a very fast 5 Series...supercar fast, yes, but without the same kind of soul.

If there is one car with soul it's E60 M5. You could hear the distinct note it makes from a mile away even at the track even with all the rats around it. Keep the revs up and it will leave M4s to bite the dust no sweat.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

If there is one car with soul it's E60 M5. You could hear the distinct note it makes from a mile away even at the track even with all the rats around it. Keep the revs up and it will leave M4s to bite the dust no sweat.

Yeah that quote must be a typo...no soul?

[amrazM]

Sounded like a zf8 also

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

If there is one car with soul it's E60 M5. You could hear the distinct note it makes from a mile away even at the track even with all the rats around it. Keep the revs up and it will leave M4s to bite the dust no sweat.

An E60 M5 won't walk a well driven M4 like you suggest. You're pipe dreaming.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by BimmerFix

Lmao ... the cuter they sound, the uglier they are . Facts

+1. In my early 20s, I fell for this... Twice. Thanks for bringing up horrific memories- still have PTSD 20 years later.

[AD18]

Law Wonderfully put.

[manuelf]

@Law and @MFNATIK
What's going on here? Is that Corona caused? I'm not used to such high quality comments/statements like from both of you in this forum lately. Please go on.

[Ghostriderf80]

I dunno about the rest of you. My neighbour has a new 3 series. Looks like a fiver series, longer and thin.

Not a big fan of the grill, so I am looking forward to seeing what the new M3 will look like w the grill.

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

I had a 2008 E60 M5 for 7 years and sure it sounded so cool, but the rest of the time, it wasn't all that great. It was a compromise. I couldn't drive further than 250 miles before needing to get gas so that was frequent and annoying. If I drove it on the streets only, then I'd have to get gas after 150 miles. It gets old folks. Nobody wants to keep going to the station and plunking down $60-70 every 2-3 days. I'd average 8-12mpg in the city and if I was lucky 16-18 max on the fwy. Could anyone pull on me in 3rd of 4th gear from 100mph? Nope. Was it worth it. Nope. That's just gas mileage. The car needed Ferrari like maintenance and when the idle throttle acutauators went out, damn, that was a quick $1600x2. Then there was always the threat of the SMGIII pump dieing. There's another $7k. Then there's the rod bearings...need I go on?

When the F80 came out, it was a no brainer to upgrade. Same-ish power, way more low end grunt, more reliability, more sporty, about the same size as an E39 M5 (the perfect M car), so it was VERY easy to move on. So happy that BMW moved away from that NA V10. It was just way too over the top for a BMW and nobody wants to deal with that level of maintenance outside of warranty.

So yeah, I can say with experience that some people on here might say they love the F1 V10 sound (I know I loved it), but the trade offs are many and none of them are worth it unless you have close to unlimited bankroll to keep one to drive 1-2x a week. Plus when driving it, you literally have to keep the revs up to have some semblance of power, which is cool at first, but then makes you look like you're constantly trying to race everyone and that is lame, unless you are like 16 years old.

I have a buddy of mine that just picked up a NA V12 (hand made engine) Aston Martin Rapide AMR, 1 of 210 in the world. In a month it already has been to the dealer 3 times for various engine related issues. Great when it works!

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Dimitri

I have a buddy of mine that just picked up a NA V12 (hand made engine) Aston Martin Rapide AMR, 1 of 210 in the world. In a month it already has been to the dealer 3 times for various engine related issues. Great when it works!

Gorgeous vehicle, I completely forgot they existed, I just watched Hoovie's video on it, and the engine sounds superb for two Ford V6's stitched together!

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

Gorgeous vehicle, I completely forgot they existed, I just watched Hoovie's video on it, and the engine sounds superb for two Ford V6's stitched together!

I didn't even know they existed before he got it

Unique beast not for everybody

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Keep in mind, too, that as "cool and unique" as those motors you mentioned were, people constantly complained about the horrible gas mileage, among other things. Usher in the S55 with more power/torque AND much better mileage. There will always be something.

30,000 mile average in my E92 M3 - 18mpg

20,000 mile average in my F80 M3 - 19mpg

So....yeah, I'll take the 8,400rpm V8 again, please.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Remonster

30,000 mile average in my E92 M3 - 18mpg

20,000 mile average in my F80 M3 - 19mpg

So....yeah, I'll take the 8,400rpm V8 again, please.

Sounds to me like that F80 power causes your foot to be heavier. Well done BMW!

[stein_325i]

People complaining about mpg in a sports sedan/coupe maybe should be looking at a Prius instead

FWIW in my wife's M2 we get around 13-16 in spirited driving, and 19-20 in regular driving, still better than my son's X3 which gets 15-16 regularly

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

People complaining about mpg in a sports sedan/coupe maybe should be looking at a Prius instead

FWIW in my wife's M2 we get around 13-16 in spirited driving, and 19-20 in regular driving, still better than my son's X3 which gets 15-16 regularly

Given that every M I've had has been my daily, I average[d] about 19 mpg with each of them. It's a mix of city with spirited driving.

Funny enough, the most fuel efficient car I owned was my 981 Cayman I once got 31 mpg on the AC expressway cruising @ 75 mph. I would average ~21-22 mpg on my daily commute.