[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Consumer Reports. I put no stock in a company that also reviews toasters and washing machines. Come on. That's a bit of a reach.

Actually CR rated my first BMW, a 2001 530i, the highest scoring car ever at that time, and I concur.

CR also rated Tesla's highly, but did kick some off and back on the pedestal due to reliability issues.

The owner's experience and reliability scores reported by CR do track reality closely.

[m3number86]

They're just cars and both do what theyre supposed to do great lol

[bavarianride]

Telsa is not committed to selling $25k car. In fact, Tesla keeps raising prices since the market can support those price points.

Also, while Tesla manufacturing gets 15% range improvement from latest battery tech, Tesla decides to not give customers that extra 15%(hence cutting its own cost), but at the same time raise prices 25%+ (e.g. Model 3 base) to match with i4 prices.

So Tesla is working hard for its shareholders, not its customers.

As far as manufacturing prowness of EV and adapting production lines, I doubt BMW(or any premium brands) has any issue to adapt and adopt BEV since it is a simpler product to build than ICE.

Originally Posted by KaptainKloss

That's exactly the problem I'm talking about. They are making cars on the same line and have to divide resources and production time. They will not be able to scale production to compete with manufacturers that are able to produce a fully electric line. That's taking out of the equation TSLA's casting benefits and their superior production processes. You make it seem like it's a non-issue. OEM's still rely on ICE vehicles to maintain profit margins but that does not help them increase their EV competitiveness. It takes time to transition to fully electric assembly. And btw, even if TSLAs' car doesn't cost 25K they will come damn closer than BMW ever will.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by FCX5

I would not say Tesla is 'trying' to sell in the luxury market. They are selling and will almost certainly outsell BMW in the US this year.

You can look down on Tesla buyers as not being as smart as BMW buyers but that is another story…

They can outsell BMW in the US just like Toyota or Ford outsells BMW in the US. Luxury market doesn't comprise of conveniences and good prices. If a car is very common, very convenient and cheap to run, and if the only options that it offers are: FSD or white seats, it's not luxury. Toyota is outselling BMW, but they're not outselling BMW in the luxury market.

Tesla is the car of the future. But it's Honda or Toyota of the future. They will sell well, they will be everywhere, they'll be very convenient to run; but they're not competing with Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and based on their priorities it seems like they never will.

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by sor

I have a good friend who is a Tesla fanatic. Has a Cybertruck on order. However, he keeps it real, somehow.

He has never had a problem complaining to me when a supercharger doesn't work, or his Model X doesn't get the range it advertises, or his full self driving beta does stupid and dangerous things. And he has always supported me buying other EVs and can find the good in them. I've appreciated that level of candidness and I try to do the same.

Tesla does deserve a lot of credit, but sometimes the hyperbole gets to me. We all just need to keep things down a notch and try not to take offense.

Tesla owners are worse than M fanbois - having both and interacting with both communities

Seriously, some can't just admit some of stuff that is lacking and accept every little annoying thing of a brand new car as "normal"....

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Highest customer satisfaction?? Where did you read that? If you look at any JD Power report or talk to any non-brainwashed Tesla owner, they are almost at the bottom of the list. You're paying for the hype and being first to market. It's easily $10k or more over what you should be paying.

No such thing as an official JD Power report on Tesla. Tesla doesn't allow JD power to survey owners in 15 states. All this is with good reason, in 2021 JD power surveyed Tesla owners in the "allowed" states and it ranked Tesla in top 3 least dependable cars out of 30+ surveyed. In other words, Tesla does not like consumer feedback, not really

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Consumer Reports. I put no stock in a company that also reviews toasters and washing machines. Come on. That's a bit of a reach.

I don't see the problem.

They don't take advertising money and the use seperate reviewers for each item.

Not a reach at all. I pay to access Consumer Reports and have forore than a decade.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

No such thing as an official JD Power report on Tesla. Tesla doesn't allow JD power to survey owners in 15 states. All this is with good reason, in 2021 JD power surveyed Tesla owners in the "allowed" states and it ranked Tesla in top 3 least dependable cars out of 30+ surveyed. In other words, Tesla does not like consumer feedback, not really

Also Tesla failed TÜV inspections for 3 year old cars at a rate higher than any other EV; 10%

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/t...ontrol%20arms.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by m3number86

Tesla owners are worse than M fanbois - having both and interacting with both communities

Seriously, some can't just admit some of stuff that is lacking and accept every little annoying thing of a brand new car as "normal"....

Crap happens.
My Bolt will have it's battery pack replaced. It's something that has happened to other EVs; just not at GM/LG Chem scale.

Am I selling my Bolt? Not a chance.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

No such thing as an official JD Power report on Tesla. Tesla doesn't allow JD power to survey owners in 15 states. All this is with good reason, in 2021 JD power surveyed Tesla owners in the "allowed" states and it ranked Tesla in top 3 least dependable cars out of 30+ surveyed. In other words, Tesla does not like consumer feedback, not really

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...s-a1291429338/

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

They can outsell BMW in the US just like Toyota or Ford outsells BMW in the US. Luxury market doesn't comprise of conveniences and good prices. If a car is very common, very convenient and cheap to run, and if the only options that it offers are: FSD or white seats, it's not luxury. Toyota is outselling BMW, but they're not outselling BMW in the luxury market.

Tesla is the car of the future. But it's Honda or Toyota of the future. They will sell well, they will be everywhere, they'll be very convenient to run; but they're not competing with Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and based on their priorities it seems like they never will.

The avg selling price of a Tesla is closer to BMW than Honda or Ford. Luxury car market is based on selling price not features.

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Crap happens.
My Bolt will have it's battery pack replaced. It's something that has happened to other EVs; just not at GM/LG Chem scale.

Am I selling my Bolt? Not a chance.

Stuff happening is fine. We're lucky our MYLR came out of the factory 99.5% great (the small things they fixed so no issues).

But there are literally Tesla guys who are like: your paint quality sucks but that's what you have to sacrifice for having a car faster than a Lambo/Porsche/Ferrari/add any brand here that is a ridiculous comparison

It's like dude, this is unacceptable to have a brand new car come with some major issues (for the ones with them).

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by m3number86

Stuff happening is fine. We're lucky our MYLR came out of the factory 99.5% great (the small things they fixed so no issues).

But there are literally Tesla guys who are like: your paint quality sucks but that's what you have to sacrifice for having a car faster than a Lambo/Porsche/Ferrari/add any brand here that is a ridiculous comparison

It's like dude, this is unacceptable to have a brand new car come with some major issues (for the ones with them).

A couple of years ago a bloke was pulling out of his driveway with his 1 month old Model 3 and the steering wheel fell on his lap.

Story could've been tragic if he was on the freeway turning, like a few years ago when a guy with his Model S was on the highway and autopilot confused a merging semi with a road sign, I don't need to tell you what happened to him.

I was initially of the opinion that Tesla is dealing with issues other manufacturer dealt with a few decades ago, but they come up with issues nobody ever had.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by m3number86

Stuff happening is fine. We're lucky our MYLR came out of the factory 99.5% great (the small things they fixed so no issues).

But there are literally Tesla guys who are like: your paint quality sucks but that's what you have to sacrifice for having a car faster than a Lambo/Porsche/Ferrari/add any brand here that is a ridiculous comparison

It's like dude, this is unacceptable to have a brand new car come with some major issues (for the ones with them).

My best friend took delivery of a Model 3 about a year ago.

She took delivery in the evening. When she got it home there was a paint defect as large as a dinner plate in the hood.

They told her 30+ days to repair. Her response was 30 days to repair a "new" car.
She demanded a "buy back". She then had to wait until they tried to deliver 3 more cars all with paint or panel issues. It was the last of those 3 (car #4) that was accepted.

Imagine BMW, Ford, Chevy, etc with quality problems this bad. The stock would be selling for pennies.

My nephew worked for Tesla along with others I know. They don't have real automotive "paint guys" with experience running the paint department in Fremont. They think any person off the street can run paint at an auto factory. They also think that about a lot of their production line.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by FCX5

The avg selling price of a Tesla is closer to BMW than Honda or Ford. Luxury car market is based on selling price not features.

Correct, and that's why TSLA is doing well as Tesla buyers do not pay attention to price premiums that Tesla charge.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

My nephew worked for Tesla along with others I know. They don't have real automotive "paint guys" with experience running the paint department in Fremont. They think any person off the street can run paint at an auto factory. They also think that about a lot of their production line.

I don't know how the Fremont assembly looks right now, but that line was a mess a few years ago during factory tour of a friend's Tesla factory delivery.

And paint guys of authorized Tesla collision centers can do better job than the factory(assuming the shops can get parts!), go figure.

[JMD]

I've driven a Model 3 and it was ok, as it was what it is,...I did not press it hard, as it belonged to my cousin. Now, after a recent drive in an i4 at a BMW event, I can honestly say that I was a bit impressed with the overall design and driving dynamics. I concur with your comparison,...spot on! In addition, everywhere on the net where I've made mention of the i4 M50, I've stated that "this thing hauls-@ss",....and I see no reason to change my view. It's a performs.

Now! Here is something I stated to one of the BMW Roadshow guys,..."the one thing about an electric car is that it weighs the same at 100% charge as it does at 5% charge remaining!"

However, on another note,...one can blast around town or on the track for days,...and not burn one ounce of gas! Hello!!!!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Correct, and that's why TSLA is doing well as Tesla buyers do not pay attention to price premiums that Tesla charge.

Makes sense. When TSLA was losing money, everyone thought TSLA was going to go out of business and now they are making money, so the consumers are fools…always a reason why TSLA should fail. Juxtaposed by how smart and knowledgeable German car buyers are. I love BMW and feel they are at the top of their game. But something doesn't have to be bad for something else to be good.

All these companies are making products to 'sell' to the market. The consumers decide. My point was that people with equal disposable income are picking TSLA as often as BMW or any other German. No one else is doing that. The fact they are threatening the German car companies just pisses a lot of people off. I have no idea why, but TSLA is pushing BMW and others to innovate and that is great.

Do I think TSLA is as good a car company as BMW? No. But I give them a lot of credit in being able to 'ship' their products. Lucid, Rivian and even Ford can learn a thing or two about it. The way TSLA handled the chip crisis is also very credible…

I think the Model Y is a great SUV. I am hoping the iX will be better.

[bavarianride]

TSLA technically refers to the stock, which happens to be the best product from Tesla.

I don't see Tesla as a threat to BMW or any other brand. Tesla is a software company learning to build car, while BMW and other brands are car companies catching up on software.

As of right now, the adaptation of software by BMW and other brands are ramping up quickly, while Tesla is lagging behind on car building expertise.

Nonetheless Tesla as a brand is strong, and customers are willing to pay premiums for the Tesla experience while Tesla keeps learning, so that is great news for TSLA owner aka stock holder like me.

Another point to note is, SV folks are like dream makers selling hype, so it is prudent that SV folks(like myself) do not consume too much of the hype ourselves.

BTW there are 2 brand new Y in my hood in the past week(for a total of 4), the owners swapped out Subaru forrester, F30 328i, Accord, Camry for the Y. Having said that, my friends with X hate the Y for its stiff ride and reduced range, so there are yay/naysayers abound.

Originally Posted by FCX5

Makes sense. When TSLA was losing money, everyone thought TSLA was going to go out of business and now they are making money, so the consumers are fools…always a reason why TSLA should fail. Juxtaposed by how smart and knowledgeable German car buyers are. I love BMW and feel they are at the top of their game. But something doesn't have to be bad for something else to be good.

All these companies are making products to 'sell' to the market. The consumers decide. My point was that people with equal disposable income are picking TSLA as often as BMW or any other German. No one else is doing that. The fact they are threatening the German car companies just pisses a lot of people off. I have no idea why, but TSLA is pushing BMW and others to innovate and that is great.

Do I think TSLA is as good a car company as BMW? No. But I give them a lot of credit in being able to 'ship' their products. Lucid, Rivian and even Ford can learn a thing or two about it. The way TSLA handled the chip crisis is also very credible…

I think the Model Y is a great SUV. I am hoping the iX will be better.

[BTDOC23]

Long time BMW owner here.

320
328
X3
i3

Current owner of X3 and Y

Agree with the Tesla shortcomings in production quality and now most regrettably UX interface. This has hurt my joy ratio for sure.

Until now, the look (subjective), handling (subjective), acceleration (facts), interior space (facts) are what won me over.

Exterior of i4 doesn’t appeal.

Hoping a forthcoming small SUV from BMW will win me back!

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

TSLA technically refers to the stock, which happens to be the best product from Tesla.

I don't see Tesla as a threat to BMW or any other brand. Tesla is a software company learning to build car, while BMW and other brands are car companies catching up on software.

As of right now, the adaptation of software by BMW and other brands are ramping up quickly, while Tesla is lagging behind on car building expertise.

Nonetheless Tesla as a brand is strong, and customers are willing to pay premiums for the Tesla experience while Tesla keeps learning, so that is great news for TSLA owner aka stock holder like me.

Another point to note is, SV folks are like dream makers selling hype, so it is prudent that SV folks(like myself) do not consume too much of the hype ourselves.

BTW there are 2 brand new Y in my hood in the past week(for a total of 4), the owners swapped out Subaru forrester, F30 328i, Accord, Camry for the Y. Having said that, my friends with X hate the Y for its stiff ride and reduced range, so there are yay/naysayers abound.

Tesla was actually a threat and even though BMW had strong sales there was some losses to Tesla of "new" 3 or 4 series sales.

You can see the strong demand for the i4 as legacy BMW customers and even Tesla owners have pushed BMW availability out more than 7 months.

As far as BMW ramping; I'd say they have matched or exceeded Tesla in the software department.

They have a complellling L2+ and plans to upgrade the iX to L3 along with introduce the new 7 with L3.

Add to that adaptive regeneration and other features and Tesla will now be playing catch up to BMW (EyeQ4/5 and Qualcomm); Mercedes and Lucid with Nvidia Orin.

We shall see how it plays out. It's easy to be a success when there is pent up demand and you are the only solution. Morgan Stanley thinks Tesla can wait two more years before they see price pressures.

I say that as soon as supply chain woes end and BMW, Polestar, VW, Hyundai/Kia and Fisker ramp; Tesla has a huge problem.

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

My best friend took delivery of a Model 3 about a year ago.

She took delivery in the evening. When she got it home there was a paint defect as large as a dinner plate in the hood.

They told her 30+ days to repair. Her response was 30 days to repair a "new" car.
She demanded a "buy back". She then had to wait until they tried to deliver 3 more cars all with paint or panel issues. It was the last of those 3 (car #4) that was accepted.

Imagine BMW, Ford, Chevy, etc with quality problems this bad. The stock would be selling for pennies.

My nephew worked for Tesla along with others I know. They don't have real automotive "paint guys" with experience running the paint department in Fremont. They think any person off the street can run paint at an auto factory. They also think that about a lot of their production line.

I did have one issue and took it in to service. I was told by the mobile repair guy that this service center trumped the rest.

Long story short - when they pulled my car out and told me that it was misdiagnosed, i literally started taking panels off myself in the exit paddock to show them they were wrong. Then, i showed them how to reinstall the panels correctly so that they were evenly locked in (the panel gaps got worse when i picked up the car).

The the technician walks away poutty - i can tell bc the SA had his arms around him to comfort him. I was thinking why are you pissed? Im the one who had to redo your job correctly for you.

To be fair, i could've done this all at home myself but wanted to experience that particular service center once. I ended up redoing it anyway lolol