[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Would you say the same thing about BMWs made in South Africa, Egypt, India, China, Thailand, Austria, Russia and other number of places where they have had a manufacturing presence for years/decades?

Had a South African build E90. Worse reliability ever,.and I trust that factory more than any Mexico factory. Their reputation with VW and FCA is aweful.

European manufacturing only for me. They cut corners when they are made elsewhere. Looks at the quality between Bremen C class vs Alabama C class. China GLC are made cheap without aluminum body parts, and don't get me started with the downgraded Audi powertrain assembled in Mexico.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

The same way I wouldn't get near a Tesla assembled under a circus tent...

Sounds like someone has Model 3 on his mind LOL

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by trey100

25% of all M3's sold in the US were manuals and that was going up against a much fancier DCT. They still limited it's use in the next generation. Many times companies make decisions on short term cost reductions and not what may be good for a brand long term. Don't assume the almighty accountants at BMW only make perfect decisions. It's a debatable point even if you disagree.

And that's why the manual transmission is still alive on M cars. The M2 saved the manuals and BMW has already admitted this.

https://carbuzz.com/news/american-bm...box-from-death

[hans007]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Had a South African build E90. Worse reliability ever,.and I trust that factory more than any Mexico factory. Their reputation with VW and FCA is aweful.

European manufacturing only for me. They cut corners when they are made elsewhere. Looks at the quality between Bremen C class vs Alabama C class. China GLC are made cheap without aluminum body parts, and don't get me started with the downgraded Audi powertrain assembled in Mexico.

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Had a South African build E90. Worse reliability ever,.and I trust that factory more than any Mexico factory. Their reputation with VW and FCA is aweful.

European manufacturing only for me. They cut corners when they are made elsewhere. Looks at the quality between Bremen C class vs Alabama C class. China GLC are made cheap without aluminum body parts, and don't get me started with the downgraded Audi powertrain assembled in Mexico.

don't get how it's downgraded. friend of mine has a new q5 and it's exactly the same as my a4

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Had a South African build E90. Worse reliability ever,.and I trust that factory more than any Mexico factory. Their reputation with VW and FCA is aweful.

European manufacturing only for me. They cut corners when they are made elsewhere. Looks at the quality between Bremen C class vs Alabama C class. China GLC are made cheap without aluminum body parts, and don't get me started with the downgraded Audi powertrain assembled in Mexico.

Ahhhh so that's why everybody's worried about the Mexico built cars

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Had a South African build E90. Worse reliability ever,.and I trust that factory more than any Mexico factory. Their reputation with VW and FCA is aweful.

European manufacturing only for me. They cut corners when they are made elsewhere. Looks at the quality between Bremen C class vs Alabama C class. China GLC are made cheap without aluminum body parts, and don't get me started with the downgraded Audi powertrain assembled in Mexico.

That's strange. My SA E90 was absolutely rock solid..

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Powaup

Ahhhh so that's why everybody's worried about the Mexico built cars

People that don't work in automotive manufacturing making all kinds of assumptions..

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

That's strange. My SA E90 was absolutely rock solid..

The South Africa plant actually won an award a few years back for quality. There's always a bad apple in the bunch and there is nothing you can do about that.

https://www.abrbuzz.co.za/partinform...-quality-study

https://autoweek.com/article/car-new...-built-germany

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Staszek

Completely agree here!

We vote with our wallets, and not enough people bought manuals for it to be worth the cost of them developing them.

If there was a 20-30% uptake in Manual purchases they would still make them.

A lot of factors go into the decision making process I'm sure but if BMW doesn't see significant demand for the manual transmission, why would they waste resources keeping it alive? Very well said. Frank Van Meel weighted in on this top last year. Admitted that the US M2 manual take rate saved the manuals.

Originally Posted by Frank Van Meel

“Buyers vote with their wallets,” he admitted, “being an engineer I would say from a rational standpoint that even though the manual gearbox is lighter than an automated gearbox it uses more fuel and is slower, so it doesn't really make sense...

https://www.caradvice.com.au/669114/...bmw-m-manuals/

Originally Posted by hans007

don't get how it's downgraded. friend of mine has a new q5 and it's exactly the same as my a4

My S5 is the same as my aunt's 2018 Q5 and my uncle's Q7. *shrug*

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

The South Africa plant actually won an award a few years back for quality.

https://www.abrbuzz.co.za/partinform...-quality-study

Seems like we'll be disagreeing on everything lot lizard.
Oh well, so be it.

I don't care if the quality is the same. I care about the price vs. cost
German assembly worker wages are probably 5X of the Mexican worker.
If I'm paying 60K for a car I want it to cost BMW a lot of money too.
Sure I'll buy made in mexico 340 that costs 45K instead of whatever, let's say, 60K.
It works like that with everthing we buy, closthes, shoes, electronics, watches, appliances, furniture, everything. But somehow not cars.
Give me a choice Made in Germany for 60K or Made in Mexico for 45K and let me decide. That's fine.
Otherwise BMW is cutting costs and raising prices. F that. I don't own BMW stock so I don't give a rat's ass about profits.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by MT4life

Seems like we'll be disagreeing on everything lot lizard.
Oh well, so be it.

I don't care if the quality is the same. I care about the price vs. cost
German assembly worker wages are probably 5X of the Mexican worker.
If I'm paying 60K for a car I want it to cost BMW a lot of money too.
Sure I'll buy made in mexico 340 that costs 45K instead of whatever, let's say, 60K.
It works like that with everthing we buy, closthes, shoes, electronics, watches, appliances, furniture, everything. But somehow not cars.
Give me a choice Made in Germany for 60K or Made in Mexico for 45K and let me decide. That's fine.
Otherwise BMW is cutting costs and raising prices. F that. I don't own BMW stock so I don't give a rat's ass about profits.

BMW is cutting costs because it is adapting. It needs to keep these cars in a certain price range so people can keep buying them and certain things to be sacrificed in order to make that happen. The value of money does not stay stagnant. BMW has to also account for inflation. If you see price changes in the middle of a model year, most of the time a supplier has changed pricing on BMW and they need to account for that. They'll eat a chunk of it and pass on a bit of it to the consumer. I'm not happy about it and it went to hell with the F3x generation of cars. It looks like thy've brought the quality you expect from a BMW back in the recently released models.

If you think prices are bad now, wait until Trump imposes tariffs on all German made vehicles. This trade war is the worst thing that could have happened.

[golf_234]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

It's crazy how many people on these forums have absolutely zero business sense even though they've somehow managed to afford a BMW.

Hahaha best comment.

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Would you say the same thing about BMWs made in South Africa, Egypt, India, China, Thailand, Austria, Russia and other number of places where they have had a manufacturing presence for years/decades?

Yup

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

BMW is cutting costs because it is adapting. It needs to keep these cars in a certain price range so people can keep buying them and certain things to be sacrificed in order to make that happen. The value of money does not stay stagnant. BMW has to also account for inflation. If you see price changes in the middle of a model year, most of the time a supplier has changed pricing on BMW and they need to account for that. They'll eat a chunk of it and pass on a bit of it to the consumer. I'm not happy about it and it went to hell with the F3x generation of cars. It looks like thy've brought the quality you expect from a BMW back in the recently released models.

If you think prices are bad now, wait until Trump imposes tariffs on all German made vehicles. This trade war is the worst thing that could have happened.

I got all that but it has to be from Germany

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

I got all that but it has to be from Germany

If thy had the means to make it in Germany, I'm pretty sure they would. There is a reason it is being outsourced.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by hans007

don't get how it's downgraded. friend of mine has a new q5 and it's exactly the same as my a4

Check again, do you get dual injectors? Or direct injection? Dual injectors solves the carbon built up issue with all DI engines. You pay the same but get less when they are built in Mexico. Not sure if you can get an Audi from Deutchland, but I know I am not getting that Q5 from the VW plant in Mexico.

Fact is, they are built differently, and German built is still the safest bet. I had a South African E90 with a 9K repair under warranty, and the Rosslyn plant was known to over use glues at that time. Did they improve, sure. Yes, China built GLCs are not using aluminum panels like German and Iceland built units. C class sedan is awful from Alabama compared to Bremen. Fact is, parts are sourced differently especially since NAFTA and the situation got worse with Trump.

As long as I have the option to ensure a German built, I will get a German built. Feel free to buy whatever you want. My preference is my preference and I am sticking with it.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

My S5 is the same as my aunt's 2018 Q5 and my uncle's Q7. *shrug*

I have to call you out on this. WTF?

I sure hope your "S5" is different than your aunt's "Q5", or your uncle's "Q7".

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

I have to call you out on this. WTF?

I sure hope your "S5" is different than your aunt's "Q5", or your uncle's "Q7".

It's not. The build quality on all the cars I mentioned are solid. They even use different engines, and no issues there, either. Turbocharged 3.0L V6, turbocharged Inline 4, and Supercharged 3.0 V6.The interior layout is also the same. The Q7 has a couple features that I don't have, but we mostly have the same options too.

[allen3ybq]

GREAT CAR but $55k for a well equipped 330i just can't move my wallet.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

The South Africa plant actually won an award a few years back for quality. There's always a bad apple in the bunch and there is nothing you can do about that.

https://www.abrbuzz.co.za/partinform...-quality-study

https://autoweek.com/article/car-new...-built-germany

.[/QUOTE]

You need to stop editing your posts after someone else has responded to you.

[Staszek]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Companies like Apple and (formerly) BMW seized market share and became segment leaders precisely because they supplied forward-thinking and innovative products that the mass market hadn't yet imagined. Consider Mac, iPod, iPhone. Consider the early M3s / M5s. Compared with their peers of the day, these products were revolutionary, re-defining the products in the segment, that anyone including non-enthusiasts, could plainly see.

Without being rude, your strategy is a prime reason for BMW becoming irrelevant for many enthusiasts. If I want a mass-market car, I would (in the past) buy a Chevy or Toyota. Today, if I were shopping for an appliance car, I would look first at the Japanese and Korean brands, followed by the Germans (except Porsche). Excitement? The most exciting cars on the planet today are built in Detroit. Two of the most exciting cars in the world are Chevys. Cadillac builds better BMWs than the current gang in Munich. Heck, Kia / Genesis builds better BMWs than Munich (thank you Albert Biermann!).

The sole drivers car in BMW's product portfolio, the 2-series, is available with a 6MT, despite BMWs best efforts to kill the stick. Why? Because many enthusiasts want to drive stick! Does Singer make 911s with slush boxes? No. Enthusiasts are also market shapers / influencers, hence performance imagery helps sell cars, even for ordinary drivers. BMW earned their reputation building great performance sedans, grew the business successfully, and now appears to be paralyzed by the same success, building boring appliance cars for the masses while also trying to cling to a performance reputation. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

Sorry, German cars are so soul-crushingly boring now.

My "appliance" car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee. We use it for winter mountain travel and summer adventures in the mountains. Since the Jeep's in for repair, I'm in an Audi Q7 loaner. Compared to the Jeep, the Audi reminds me of dad's Buicks and Oldsmobiles. It's just a big, fat, shiny, boat with too much tech to intuitively operate. In contrast, the Jeep is as off-road capable as ever, while maintaining reliable mechanicals and comfort, and (subjectively) much better styling, without appearing "over designed".

I swear I believe the only reason to drive German today is social signaling the neighbors. It isn't for fun or performance anymore, based on my firsthand experience.

Not sure if the most exciting cars in the world are coming out of Detriot, I drive them a lot, and they are not that great, they can look cool and be fast but still not great. WIth the exception of the Jeep Cherokee those are nice.

That being said putting a manual in a car is not Forward Thinking, your Apple comparison is off because they infact removed things from products before they were even obsolete (disc drive/CD/DVD etc). They also built things that customers didnt know they needed or wanted, IE: Iphone. Thats forward thinking, not putting out an old technology. There were many Apple loyalists who complained everytime they removed something of changed.

You included PCars in your cars enthusiasts still go after, I agree, but not sure you looked at their line up lately but they are moving away from 6MT pretty fast.

You cant throw Singer in there because that is a one off custom car that people pay well over 6 figures for, its not a car company, so irrelevant.

While I will agree that BMW could do better, it doesnt have anything to do with 6MT.

I will go back to my original comment, BMW would make a ton of 6MT if people would actually buy them

[hans007]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Check again, do you get dual injectors? Or direct injection? Dual injectors solves the carbon built up issue with all DI engines. You pay the same but get less when they are built in Mexico. Not sure if you can get an Audi from Deutchland, but I know I am not getting that Q5 from the VW plant in Mexico.

Fact is, they are built differently, and German built is still the safest bet. I had a South African E90 with a 9K repair under warranty, and the Rosslyn plant was known to over use glues at that time. Did they improve, sure. Yes, China built GLCs are not using aluminum panels like German and Iceland built units. C class sedan is awful from Alabama compared to Bremen. Fact is, parts are sourced differently especially since NAFTA and the situation got worse with Trump.

As long as I have the option to ensure a German built, I will get a German built. Feel free to buy whatever you want. My preference is my preference and I am sticking with it.

as far as i know the engine is still made in germany. Its exactly the same EA888 gen 3 with the exact same dual clutch transmission. Why would a Q5 engine with the exact same HP and torque numbers be built differently than an A4 engine that is the same model.

given we don't even get the C class sedan from bremen in the US, but we get the coupe there, other than the seat bleeding issue which was due to some US supplier screwing up, having sat in enough C class sedans and coupes when I was looking at buying my current car I can't say I ever felt any real difference between the cars.

The rosslyn plant supposedly had a lower defect rate than germany ... there were multiple threads about it https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1141348

Maybe you got a bad car, but statistics over 1000s of cars are a bit more useful than one person's anecdote. Build quality is build quality if you are using the same parts.


As an added note, a friend leased a w204 C350 before they moved C class production to alabama. He had the leather package. THe car was assembled with 3 leather covered inner doors and 1 mbtex one. Yes an anecdote but that was pretty terrible. I'm pretty sure theres screw ups at every plant in the world, but that was an actual assembly screw up, not a parts defect. But yeah never buy a mercedes built in germany , one friend of mine got the wrong door inner lining installed they must all be bad.