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      03-22-2016, 08:01 AM   #661
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Now the Brussels airport and rail station.
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      03-22-2016, 08:07 AM   #662
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Now the Brussels airport and rail station.
26 deaths. Coward p'os.
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      03-22-2016, 08:42 AM   #663
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26 deaths. Coward p'os.
Is that confirmed, keep seeing different numbers.
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      03-22-2016, 08:43 AM   #664
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Is that confirmed, keep seeing different numbers.
Just got an alert a few minutes ago from WaPo that Belgium officials confirm that the death toll is at least 31.
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      03-22-2016, 08:44 AM   #665
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Is that confirmed, keep seeing different numbers.
27 a short time ago. 3 Explosions in 2 sites.
130+ Wounded.
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      03-30-2016, 06:02 PM   #666
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Over the past one hundred years, the Middle East has been targeted by Western imperialism in the violent manner that the rest of the world has endured for centuries. Nowadays we use politically correct terms such as “democracy promotion” and “human rights” instead of “civilize” and “Christianize,” but they essentially mean the same thing because they are simply the latest justifications for stealing resources and imposing Western values on other cultures. Not surprisingly, as has been the case throughout the rest of the world over the past 500 years, there is widespread resentment and anger towards the West for its imperialist policies in the Middle East. And, also not surprisingly, some fundamentalist Muslim resisters to Western imperialism have resorted to extreme tactics.

Finally, perhaps one of the most disturbing aspects of Western imperialism in the Islamic world is the fact that each consequence has been more extreme than the previous one. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were far more extremist than the Islamic government that came to power in Iran. And the Islamic State is even more extremist than al-Qaeda. Which begs the question: What new and even more extremist monstrosity are we currently creating with our ongoing military interventions and imperialist policies in the Islamic world?




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      03-30-2016, 07:50 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian
Over the past one hundred years, the Middle East has been targeted by Western imperialism in the violent manner that the rest of the world has endured for centuries. Nowadays we use politically correct terms such as “democracy promotion” and “human rights” instead of “civilize” and “Christianize,” but they essentially mean the same thing because they are simply the latest justifications for stealing resources and imposing Western values on other cultures. Not surprisingly, as has been the case throughout the rest of the world over the past 500 years, there is widespread resentment and anger towards the West for its imperialist policies in the Middle East. And, also not surprisingly, some fundamentalist Muslim resisters to Western imperialism have resorted to extreme tactics.

Finally, perhaps one of the most disturbing aspects of Western imperialism in the Islamic world is the fact that each consequence has been more extreme than the previous one. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were far more extremist than the Islamic government that came to power in Iran. And the Islamic State is even more extremist than al-Qaeda. Which begs the question: What new and even more extremist monstrosity are we currently creating with our ongoing military interventions and imperialist policies in the Islamic world?




Ali Shiralian
Imperialistic Westeners? Maybe they learned it from the Ottoman Turks?

Dude - face it. If it wasn't for western intervention (after the Turks committed genocide on 1.5M+ Armenians), there would be no "arab world" - that was an invention of the British. Because the Christian west established the Arab world, and gave it independence (a tenet of the Christian Faith), it exists today to make its own mistakes, vs being a British territory.

So you can whine all you want about nations that are soaking in oil wealth, but too corrupt and uncaring to help each other. The reality is that the Arab world has benefited immensely from the west, despite the west'S occasional defense of its interests and basic human rights.
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      03-31-2016, 01:42 AM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Over the past one hundred years, the Middle East has been targeted by Western imperialism in the violent manner that the rest of the world has endured for centuries. Nowadays we use politically correct terms such as “democracy promotion” and “human rights” instead of “civilize” and “Christianize,” but they essentially mean the same thing because they are simply the latest justifications for stealing resources and imposing Western values on other cultures. Not surprisingly, as has been the case throughout the rest of the world over the past 500 years, there is widespread resentment and anger towards the West for its imperialist policies in the Middle East. And, also not surprisingly, some fundamentalist Muslim resisters to Western imperialism have resorted to extreme tactics.

Finally, perhaps one of the most disturbing aspects of Western imperialism in the Islamic world is the fact that each consequence has been more extreme than the previous one. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were far more extremist than the Islamic government that came to power in Iran. And the Islamic State is even more extremist than al-Qaeda. Which begs the question: What new and even more extremist monstrosity are we currently creating with our ongoing military interventions and imperialist policies in the Islamic world?




Ali Shiralian

As mentioned, you sort of forgot that the majority was under control of the Ottoman Empire.

However ignoring that, prior to 1994, can you give some examples of where the West has targeted the Middle East in a violent imperial manner?

Then can you list those where the West has actually supported / protected the sovereignty of middle eastern countries?

For such a bold statement, you must have a plethora of great examples..
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      03-31-2016, 02:00 AM   #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Over the past one hundred years, the Middle East has been targeted by Western imperialism in the violent manner that the rest of the world has endured for centuries. Nowadays we use politically correct terms such as “democracy promotion” and “human rights” instead of “civilize” and “Christianize,” but they essentially mean the same thing because they are simply the latest justifications for stealing resources and imposing Western values on other cultures. Not surprisingly, as has been the case throughout the rest of the world over the past 500 years, there is widespread resentment and anger towards the West for its imperialist policies in the Middle East. And, also not surprisingly, some fundamentalist Muslim resisters to Western imperialism have resorted to extreme tactics.

Finally, perhaps one of the most disturbing aspects of Western imperialism in the Islamic world is the fact that each consequence has been more extreme than the previous one. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were far more extremist than the Islamic government that came to power in Iran. And the Islamic State is even more extremist than al-Qaeda. Which begs the question: What new and even more extremist monstrosity are we currently creating with our ongoing military interventions and imperialist policies in the Islamic world?




Ali Shiralian

Anyone notice the post number of the above quoted comment?

Last edited by SDH; 03-31-2016 at 02:07 AM..
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      03-31-2016, 08:30 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
As mentioned, you sort of forgot that the majority was under control of the Ottoman Empire.

However ignoring that, prior to 1994, can you give some examples of where the West has targeted the Middle East in a violent imperial manner?

Then can you list those where the West has actually supported / protected the sovereignty of middle eastern countries?

For such a bold statement, you must have a plethora of great examples..
I'm glad you're engaging in healthy debate. You asked me for examples of the interventions, and there are many, but the main of that comes to mind is when in 1953, CIA overthrew a democratically moderate elected government of Dr. Mosadegh in Iran and inserted their puppet SHAH. He ruled for 26 years and his secret service, trained by the CIA, tortured and killed many Iranians who resisted. Shah was overthrown in 1979 and the Islamic republic was created. Isreal was created in 1948 and the Plaestininans were kicked out, if you look at the borders of countries like Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, you'll see there are straight lines as borders, meaning it was artificially created and not fought for.

I can go on but don't wanna bore you...

Cheers
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      03-31-2016, 09:08 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
I'm glad you're engaging in healthy debate. You asked me for examples of the interventions, and there are many, but the main of that comes to mind is when in 1953, CIA overthrew a democratically moderate elected government of Dr. Mosadegh in Iran and inserted their puppet SHAH. He ruled for 26 years and his secret service, trained by the CIA, tortured and killed many Iranians who resisted. Shah was overthrown in 1979 and the Islamic republic was created. Isreal was created in 1948 and the Plaestininans were kicked out, if you look at the borders of countries like Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, you'll see there are straight lines as borders, meaning it was artificially created and not fought for.

I can go on but don't wanna bore you...

Cheers
Come on, I am sure you can do better than that.

Ignore the Israel bit, just the rest of the Middle East, that's been done to death.

What about the multiple invasions of Kuwait by Iraq?

Supporting Oman.

Post war (WW1 and 2) in the Middle East.

From a western point of view saying a government tortured its citizens is pointless when looking at the Middle East, it's standard practice.

Pre Shah people were tortured, during shah people tortured, post shah people tortured.

Anyhow pre 1994.

Violent imperialistic intervention in..

Syria
Jordan
Saudi
Iraq
Iran
Kuwait
Bahrain
Oman
Yemen
UAE
Lebanon
Afghanistan


Emphasis on violent by the western imperialism.
Even with countries relatively untouched by violent imperialism, they torture people.
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      03-31-2016, 06:31 PM   #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Come on, I am sure you can do better than that.

Ignore the Israel bit, just the rest of the Middle East, that's been done to death.

What about the multiple invasions of Kuwait by Iraq?

Supporting Oman.

Post war (WW1 and 2) in the Middle East.

From a western point of view saying a government tortured its citizens is pointless when looking at the Middle East, it's standard practice.

Pre Shah people were tortured, during shah people tortured, post shah people tortured.

Anyhow pre 1994.

Violent imperialistic intervention in..

Syria
Jordan
Saudi
Iraq
Iran
Kuwait
Bahrain
Oman
Yemen
UAE
Lebanon
Afghanistan


Emphasis on violent by the western imperialism.
Even with countries relatively untouched by violent imperialism, they torture people.
Your post implies that I agree with those countries listed and somehow I think they are model contrives, I do not. However torture was mentioned in my post once and you seem to have picked up only on that. All these puppet regimes that were put in place by the west, they stole the natural resources, ( in Middle East , mostly oil) and left their people in poverty. The government that came after shah is even more brutal and corrupt, but people didn't see that when they revolted. My point was that if they hadn't intervened in 1953, maybe the outcome would have been different and we eouldnt have jihadist threaten us in the west the way it's been happening.

Cheers...
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      03-31-2016, 08:39 PM   #673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Come on, I am sure you can do better than that.

Ignore the Israel bit, just the rest of the Middle East, that's been done to death.

What about the multiple invasions of Kuwait by Iraq?

Supporting Oman.

Post war (WW1 and 2) in the Middle East.

From a western point of view saying a government tortured its citizens is pointless when looking at the Middle East, it's standard practice.

Pre Shah people were tortured, during shah people tortured, post shah people tortured.

Anyhow pre 1994.

Violent imperialistic intervention in..

Syria
Jordan
Saudi
Iraq
Iran
Kuwait
Bahrain
Oman
Yemen
UAE
Lebanon
Afghanistan


Emphasis on violent by the western imperialism.
Even with countries relatively untouched by violent imperialism, they torture people.
My point was that if they hadn't intervened in 1953, maybe the outcome would have been different and we eouldnt have jihadist threaten us in the west the way it's been happening.

Cheers...
Yeah - because it's been such a historically peaceful region for the last 4,000 years.
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      04-01-2016, 01:48 AM   #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Your post implies that I agree with those countries listed and somehow I think they are model contrives, I do not. However torture was mentioned in my post once and you seem to have picked up only on that. All these puppet regimes that were put in place by the west, they stole the natural resources, ( in Middle East , mostly oil) and left their people in poverty. The government that came after shah is even more brutal and corrupt, but people didn't see that when they revolted. My point was that if they hadn't intervened in 1953, maybe the outcome would have been different and we eouldnt have jihadist threaten us in the west the way it's been happening.

Cheers...
The entire 1953 episode tracks back to WW2, the Shah's father and the Shah taking power - Russia and Britain organised that to keep supply lines open and Germans out.

It started from the Prime Minister and his anti British stance wanting to completely nationalise oil.

The British came up with a plan, the CIA adopted it.

There is a big however to this, at the time Russia was now pushing out globally.

So Dr Mosaddeq had backing from Moscow as Russia wanted access to Iran and warm sea ports (this is an on going theme).

So if the British and Americans had not intervened, then Russia would have added Iran as a Soviet ally, along with Egypt, Syria, Libya Yemen and a few others.

The inclusion of Iran would have dramatically changed the Cold War.

This Soviet v West power struggle occurred all over the globe, however it was very active within the Middle East.

Let's face it all the Israeli v Arab wars would not have played out as they did without Soviets supplying T55's, Saggers etc and the west Centurions, ECM pods etc.

The Squadron I spent the majority of my 30 years service on, had spent most of its entire time (WW1/WW2 excepted) out East of Suez.

When I joined the Sqn (1980), we had aircrew and senior ranks that had spent their entire career East of Suez.

http://www.naval8-208-association.co...cations01.html

So all of this part of Sqn briefs and histories.

So yes without western intervention, the current threats would likely not be there.

However, what state would the West be in with Russian controlled Middle East, how would America have managed with Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia controlled by the Soviets during the Cold War?

As for these regimes keeping their people in poverty, that is applying Western values, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan were very socialised and had a sliding scale of wealth distribution.
With its lack of welfare / healthcare system, does America (to an extent) not do the same to its poor when compared to say the British healthcare system?
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      04-01-2016, 05:55 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
The entire 1953 episode tracks back to WW2, the Shah's father and the Shah taking power - Russia and Britain organised that to keep supply lines open and Germans out.

It started from the Prime Minister and his anti British stance wanting to completely nationalise oil.

The British came up with a plan, the CIA adopted it.

There is a big however to this, at the time Russia was now pushing out globally.

So Dr Mosaddeq had backing from Moscow as Russia wanted access to Iran and warm sea ports (this is an on going theme).

So if the British and Americans had not intervened, then Russia would have added Iran as a Soviet ally, along with Egypt, Syria, Libya Yemen and a few others.

The inclusion of Iran would have dramatically changed the Cold War.

This Soviet v West power struggle occurred all over the globe, however it was very active within the Middle East.

Let's face it all the Israeli v Arab wars would not have played out as they did without Soviets supplying T55's, Saggers etc and the west Centurions, ECM pods etc.

The Squadron I spent the majority of my 30 years service on, had spent most of its entire time (WW1/WW2 excepted) out East of Suez.

When I joined the Sqn (1980), we had aircrew and senior ranks that had spent their entire career East of Suez.

http://www.naval8-208-association.co...cations01.html

So all of this part of Sqn briefs and histories.

So yes without western intervention, the current threats would likely not be there.

However, what state would the West be in with Russian controlled Middle East, how would America have managed with Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia controlled by the Soviets during the Cold War?

As for these regimes keeping their people in poverty, that is applying Western values, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan were very socialised and had a sliding scale of wealth distribution.
With its lack of welfare / healthcare system, does America (to an extent) not do the same to its poor when compared to say the British healthcare system?
I appreciate your post. I was merely mentioning Mosadegh's overthrow by the CIA as a point of reference to the general animosity of the Persians towards the west. Under Russian influence, perhaps it would have been better or worse, I can't say for sure. The fact that it happened, it actually made Iran closer to Russia as present situation is most evident...
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      04-02-2016, 10:41 PM   #676
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Muslims march in Germany chanting "With Allah's help, we will conquer you:"

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016...conquer-video/
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      04-06-2016, 07:38 PM   #677
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Muslims march in Germany chanting "With Allah's help, we will conquer you:"

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016...conquer-video/
Such good neighbors.
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      04-06-2016, 11:24 PM   #678
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And if it's not enough that Obama is ignoring our laws and letting illegals trample us, he's now advocating that they be given government benefits:

http://cnsnews.com/commentary/terenc...ocial-security

Who didn't see this coming?
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      04-07-2016, 08:09 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
And if it's not enough that Obama is ignoring our laws and letting illegals trample us, he's now advocating that they be given government benefits:

http://cnsnews.com/commentary/terenc...ocial-security

Who didn't see this coming?
How is this pertinent to the Paris attacks?
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      04-07-2016, 10:02 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
And if it's not enough that Obama is ignoring our laws and letting illegals trample us, he's now advocating that they be given government benefits:

http://cnsnews.com/commentary/terenc...ocial-security

Who didn't see this coming?
How is this pertinent to the Paris attacks?
Paris (and Belgium, etc. ) are perhaps in this situation because they didn't either pay attention or control their immigration; their politicians apparently want the votes, at any cost. They are now in a quandary, and their populace is vulnerable to terrorism.

Rather than learning from this mistake, Obama is exacerbating the situation in the US, and continuing to put the US populace at risk - both financially and security. The only possible reason is similar to the EU - he (and others) want the democrat votes, as immigrants vote 80%+ for democrats.
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      04-07-2016, 07:50 PM   #681
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... The only possible reason is similar to the EU - he (and others) want the democrat votes, as immigrants vote 80%+ for democrats.
That sounds like a stretch of logic. Not many, if any, Illegal Aliens have the right to vote, not sure if you know that. Pretty sure you and logic have been at odds for most of your ramblings.
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      04-07-2016, 08:29 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
... The only possible reason is similar to the EU - he (and others) want the democrat votes, as immigrants vote 80%+ for democrats.
That sounds like a stretch of logic. Not many, if any, Illegal Aliens have the right to vote, not sure if you know that. Pretty sure you and logic have been at odds for most of your ramblings.
Kind of a nasty reply, especially when you twisted my post to be about illegal immigrants, instead of what I said; (legal) immigrants.

And everyone knows illegal immigrants don't vote...

http://projects.iq.harvard.edu/cces/home

...except for at least these 700,000....
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