[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by koopa

I don't want to go round and round with you about how easy and intuitive you find ID8 while others prefer the old way, and all I've suggested is that both sides can be satisfied by bringing back some buttons.

I think what's being lost here are the nuances that:

a) Some of the buttons removed have simply been relocated and are still just one tap away: Temperature up/down is persistent, it's on the screen, and it's better than what we had which was a tiny half a button packed in against 24 other equally sized buttons, as an example.

b) Some of the buttons were removed because superior software engineering made them unnecessary: MAX AC comes to mind, because BMW added a whole host of Climate Control parameters that when set properly don't have you reaching for MAX AC every time you get in a burning hot car.

c) Much of the 'stole my buttons!' crowd are complaining about buttons they didn't use anyway. I'm a pretty techy guy and even I couldn't fill up all 8 of my Shortcut buttons. I used music Skip forward/back on the steering wheel. I scrolled through my Radio Favorites on the steering wheel. I'm sure BMW noticed the behaviors with decades of button-press data and that informed their decisions on iDrive 8.

Originally Posted by koopa

You keep bringing up detailed examples of how you use ID8, which is you completely missing the point that my opinion is the user experience is worse now than it was before.

And I'm, again, saying that it's all in the details! You keep throwing out this one blanket opinion that "buttons are better!" and you're not willing to get into the nuances as to why they aren't anymore. The user experience is better because BMW upgraded functionality, they didn't just chop off plastic buttons and make them digital.

There are only two areas where we lost buttons. Both on the center stack. The buttons around the iDrive controller didn't reduce. The buttons on the steering wheel didn't reduce, instead they added buttons. Here is how the functionality is better for the two areas of concern:

1-8 Shortcuts: In the same amount of time it took to glance at the physical buttons, choose a button, reach over, and press it in iDrive 7, BMW offers the same thing with the addition of full descriptions of each Shortcut in iDrive 8. It's better. Same amount of time, same amount of attention, more information, no memorization.

Climate Control: This is a brand new HVAC system, it has been completely reprogrammed and reengineered. Besides just temperature and airspeed one can now choose between different Automatic Modes including the all-important Dynamic Mode which makes your car work just like your house. The AC goes on full blast until the car starts to cool down and then dramatically starts reducing airspeed so it's not overwhelming. Your passengers don't beg you to "turn up the AC!" when they first get in the hot car and they don't start complaining to "turn it down!" after 3 minutes. The HVAC does it automatically.

Please....get into the details! Because it's the details that you need to understand so that you can see why BMW made some of the decisions they made.

The one big miss? Heated Seats. But BMW is correcting that with the new persistent taskbar on iDrive 8.5 which I am sure they will give us on iDrive 8 as it's just a firmware UI tweak requiring new hardware.

[wrickem]

I routinely go from my 430 with idrive7 to our X7 with idrive8. They both work well but sometimes it’s hard to remember what is where in each car’s version.

I end up using on a lot more voice commands (which work great) in idrive 8 instead of digging around for functions. And no fingerprints on the screen

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by zazzau

Physical buttons will always be better from a safety standpoint.

These blanket generalizations have to stop. It's time to get called on it and get into the details. I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with you here when it comes to safety, specifically on how BMW laid these buttons out on the pre-LCI:

1. The HVAC controls were below the windshield, below the dashboard, below the air vents, they were practically at your knee-tops.

2. You have to take your eyes off the road and look down any time you want to tap any button because you can't feel the difference between any button.

3. Because the buttons are so many and so squished together, they have incredibly small target zones. They may have different colors, but the buttons you use the most (temp, fan speed) get just as much dominance as the ones you use the least (defroster, recirc). Just finding the passenger temperature button or the fan speed button is a nightmare.

4. There are no independent up/down buttons, they are all toggles so to make things worse you have to tap the tippy-top of the fan button to click the fan speed up and the tiny-bottom of the temperature button to bring the number down. Could this be more dangerous?

5. The 1-8 shortcut buttons are actually below your knees. There are no labels, so neither you nor a passenger know what Button 4 does since it's the one you tap so infrequently. And after a couple of radio stations you were hard-pressed to fill all 8 anyway, and the steering wheel is where you actually go to change radio stations, increase volume, and skip songs anyway.

Say what you will about iDrive 8, but it keeps the drivers eyes right at the windshield, not your knees. And since you can't tell any button from any other button on iDrive 7, and since the target zones on each button for up/down control are so tiny on iDrive 7, it is very easy to argue that the clearly labeled buttons on iDrive 8 and the generous target zones for each button on iDrive 8 are far, far safer to use. I've got 48 months and 50K miles with iDrive 7 and 2 months 4K miles with iDrive 8 and even I know that.

[koopa]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

I think what's being lost here are the nuances that:

a) Some of the buttons removed have simply been relocated and are still just one tap away: Temperature up/down is persistent, it's on the screen, and it's better than what we had which was a finicky wheel, as an example.

I don't agree with you. For some of us, a tap on a flat screen is worse than a button or knob. I haven't even brought up knobs yet, but I'd much rather use a knob to adjust temperature because of the tactile feedback. It's even better than a button.

b) Some of the buttons were removed because superior software engineering made them unnecessary

I don't agree with this either. The software should be an enhancement not necessarily a replacement, and clearly with some of the controls left in the car BMW does believe in some redundancy. They should have left the center stack buttons and I believe they will be back before too long.

c) Much of the 'stole my buttons!' crowd are complaining about buttons they didn't use anyway. I'm a pretty techy guy and even I couldn't fill up all 8 of my Shortcut buttons. I used music Skip forward/back on the steering wheel. I scrolled through my Radio Favorites on the steering wheel. I'm sure BMW noticed the behaviors with decades of button-press data and that informed their decisions on iDrive 8.

You don't think it's cost cutting at all? Because that's what it seems like more than anything else. Some redundancy is perfectly ok, and in some cases it's better.

I'm not sure if you've noticed at all, but I've not once told you the way you like to use infotainment is wrong and the way I like to use it is right. This entire argument started because you apparently took offense to me saying they should have left the physical buttons.

And I'm, again, saying that it's all in the details! You keep throwing out this one blanket opinion that "buttons are better!" and you're not willing to get into the nuances as to why they aren't anymore. The user experience is better because BMW upgraded functionality, they didn't just chop off plastic buttons and make them digital.

You are the one throwing out the blanket statement, defending the removal of buttons because you apparently think BMW (and yourself) know better than everyone else. I, and others, still prefer physical buttons. You can find countless articles and studies like this one noting the time it takes to do simple tasks via touchscreen compared to buttons. Adding options in one area and removing them from another does not seem like an upgrade to me. An upgrade would be having the option to use both.

1-8 Shortcuts: In the same amount of time it took to glance at the physical buttons, choose a button, reach over, and press it in iDrive 7, BMW offers the same thing with the addition of full descriptions of each Shortcut in iDrive 8. It's better. Same amount of time, same amount of attention, more information, no memorization.

I don't need to glance at the buttons to use them and I do actually know what all of them do. Some are radio stations, some are app shortcuts like android auto or messages. Why would I need a description of a shortcut that I set?

Climate Control: This is a brand new HVAC system, it has been completely reprogrammed and reengineered. Besides just temperature and airspeed one can now choose between different Automatic Modes including the all-important Dynamic Mode which makes your car work just like your house. The AC goes on full blast until the car starts to cool down and then dramatically starts reducing airspeed so it's not overwhelming. Your passengers don't beg you to "turn up the AC!" when they first get in the hot car and they don't start complaining to "turn it down!" after 3 minutes. The HVAC does it automatically.

There are plenty of times where you don't want to set it and forget it, and in those times, the new system (in my opinion) is a step backwards.

Please....get into the details! Because it's the details that you need to understand so that you can see why BMW made some of the decisions they made.

This is not as complicated as you're trying to make it.

The one big miss? Heated Seats. But BMW is correcting that with the new persistent taskbar on iDrive 8.5 which I am sure they will give us on iDrive 8 as it's just a firmware UI tweak requiring new hardware.

What was wrong with a button?

[zazzau]

toddwalton not sure I have much to add other than to say to each their own. The touchscreen obviously works for you; there’s another group of folks who prefer to have the buttons. The issue isn’t about the location; it’s much quicker to use a button than to navigate through the menu on a touchscreen while driving: the screen is definitely more distracting period.

Perhaps when I’m ready to move to all-electric in 10 years (this is my last ICE 3er) BMW would have perfected the system so well but for now physical buttons for me all the way.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by zazzau

toddwalton not sure I have much to add other than to say to each their own. The touchscreen obviously works for you; there’s another group of folks who prefer to have the buttons. The issue isn’t about the location; it’s much quicker to use a button than to navigate through the menu on a touchscreen while driving: the screen is definitely more distracting period.

Perhaps when I’m ready to move to all-electric in 10 years (this is my last ICE 3er) BMW would have perfected the system so well but for now physical buttons for me all the way.

I understand, zazz.

It's a matter of perspective, I guess. I am currently spending equal time, around 8 hours per car per week, in both iDrive 7 and iDrive 8 vehicles and so I'm kind of a good voice of reason on the subject, I've got no skin in the game, no motive either way. And I can tell you, once you get used to 8 you don't miss 7 at all and you find that 8 makes your life easier due to enhanced BMW automation (HVAC) and enhanced button sizes (everywhere) and descriptions (Shortcuts) which you miss when you're driving a 7.

iDrive 8 needs to get persistent on-screen heated seat buttons, other than that it's equal to or better than iDrive 7. Again, no agenda, no skin in the game, I own both systems right now, just trying to share an objective opinion.