[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ShawnPaul

As for an above comment of a 3 series having good driving dynamics, clearly that is false, because the outgoing 3 series was the worst in its class. I'm worried the new one will be the same

US market is a different place to Europe. Here in the UK the BMW is never worst in class, in any comparison tests. The Jaguar XE may pip the 3-series in the steering/handling. The Alfa is now in the running, but not a serious car for most users. 3-series is still the car to have.

The AutoCar review is typical of how we see the 3-series over here.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/3-series

For in terms of outright ability, currently only the small Jag out does the 3 Series, while others have significantly closed the gap. In the past it must have been so terrifying for rival manufacturers is the car’s ability across the board. Times have changed and the market has moved on, with the Mercedes outdoing the BMW on ride comfort, while the A4 is the best compromise between a comfortable ride and dynamic ability, while on the driving stakes alone the Jaguar is a far more compelling unit to be behind the wheel of.

Now it could well change again, in favour of the G20, as BMW have moved the driving dynamics game on, from what we read in the pre production driving reviews.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

It's interesting that the BMW chief complained about British, American and Australian writers exclusively. In terms of global influence they represent a static at best influence on global tastes. If it was me, I wouldn't have been too bothered about them!

He probably isnt much but he's a marketeer too as well as Head of Development so knows the importance of telling his target market/audience what they want to hear

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

The stiffer the body the easier it is to make a car handle and ride well. When the body does not flex as much in both vertical and horizontal planes, you can run softer springs and dampers, yet retain the same handling traits as compared to a similar car that has a more flexible body structure. When the body flexes more, it requires a firmer suspension to make up for the loss in handling precision because the body flex makes the handling less predictable.

It's also easier to tune both the handling and ride characteristics in the suspension when you don't have to compensate and factor in how body flex can upset the handling of the car.

Yes the suspension will need to be tuned and adjust quicker and supposedly the new dampers adjust in realtime so lets see how the damper magic turns out when production rolls out and ordinary drivers experience this
odds are they've improved handling overall

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

Yes the suspension will need to be tuned and adjust quicker and supposedly the new dampers adjust in realtime so lets see how the damper magic turns out when production rolls out and ordinary drivers experience this
odds are they've improved handling overall

From what we've been told, the dampers are a type of passive selective frequency (variable through the stroke) design. I fitted the Koni FSD selective frequency dampers to my E91, in fact the first in the UK to do so to an E91 wagon. A great improvement in ride comfort, with better primary control as well. Made the E91 a much better 'useable' chassis, IMO, without any other suspension changes.

If BMW have got the development right, it will be a big improvement. But not sure all users will like the result, as many equate sporty with stiff and unforgiving suspensions. A more refined drive, even with good body control is often viewed as soft. Personally I don't understand that conclusion, as 'point to point' driving is often faster and there is potentially more tire grip. BMW won't win everyone over, whatever they do.

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

From what we've been told, the dampers are a type of passive selective frequency (variable through the stroke) design. I fitted the Koni FSD selective frequency dampers to my E91, in fact the first in the UK to do so to an E91 wagon. A great improvement in ride comfort, with better primary control as well. Made the E91 a much better 'useable' chassis, IMO, without any other suspension changes.

If BMW have got the development right, it will be a big improvement. But not sure all users will like the result, as many equate sporty with stiff and unforgiving suspensions. A more refined drive, even with good body control is often viewed as soft. Personally I don't understand that conclusion, as 'point to point' driving is often faster and there is potentially more tire grip. BMW won't win everyone over, whatever they do.

yes I think cause the sports cars we were used to were all fairly stiff
which is perfect on track where there arent bumps imperfections potholes
so on ordinary roads a softer suspension would maximize grip a bit better keeping the tires more planted assuming its well tuned
still I prefer to feel the road better and I suspect many others do as well
I can understand alot of daily drivers and their passengers dont
but again this goes to the fact you cant please everyone
I guess some of us should move onto the M3

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

From what we've been told, the dampers are a type of passive selective frequency (variable through the stroke) design. I fitted the Koni FSD selective frequency dampers to my E91, in fact the first in the UK to do so to an E91 wagon. A great improvement in ride comfort, with better primary control as well. Made the E91 a much better 'useable' chassis, IMO, without any other suspension changes.

If BMW have got the development right, it will be a big improvement. But not sure all users will like the result, as many equate sporty with stiff and unforgiving suspensions. A more refined drive, even with good body control is often viewed as soft. Personally I don't understand that conclusion, as 'point to point' driving is often faster and there is potentially more tire grip. BMW won't win everyone over, whatever they do.

yes I think cause the sports cars we were used to were all fairly stiff
which is perfect on track where there arent bumps imperfections potholes
so on ordinary roads a softer suspension would maximize grip a bit better keeping the tires more planted assuming its well tuned
still I prefer to feel the road better and I suspect many others do as well
I can understand alot of daily drivers and their passengers dont
but again this goes to the fact you cant please everyone
I guess some of us should move onto the M3

koni fsd .. gotta check that out thanx

[ShawnPaul]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Not one review published by someone who wasn't drooling at the same time said that the A4, Lexus and Mercedes C-Class were all better to drive than the old 3. The Jag and Alfa pipped it on some facets, but not all. I am sure that the outgoing 3 series had the worst driving dynamics of its class in your own opinion, though.

It's interesting that the BMW chief complained about British, American and Australian writers exclusively. In terms of global influence they represent a static at best influence on global tastes. If it was me, I wouldn't have been too bothered about them!

How many reviews have no bias? Virtually all reviews are paid for or sponsored by someone. I have driven every car in that segment and the outgoing 3 series had a completely vague rear end. It would float around a lot at highways speeds and had a really hard time over mid corner bumps. The compact suspension to make for more trunk space really sucked and the dampers were complete garbage. Every other car I drove in that class felt more planted on twisty roads and highway cruising.

A number of car manufacturers even request to read articles or see review videos before they are released from what I read a while back. Chrysler for example mandated that all articles about their vehicles be approved before publishing or else they would pull all ads from that site/ magazine or otherwise.

The outgoing 3 series placed a priority on rear seat and trunk space as well as a softer ride. My thought was that it was to cater to the Chinese, Middle East and Indian markets that all want larger back seats, even so far as to make special versions that are even longer.

[derritterauskanada]

Originally Posted by ShawnPaul

The outgoing 3 series placed a priority on rear seat and trunk space as well as a softer ride. My thought was that it was to cater to the Chinese, Middle East and Indian markets that all want larger back seats, even so far as to make special versions that are even longer.

I never understood why they just didn't design the long wheelbase model and the GT to be the softer car for China and leaving the SWB Sedan and Wagon alone.

[ShawnPaul]

Originally Posted by derritterauskanada

I never understood why they just didn't design the long wheelbase model and the GT to be the softer car for China and leaving the SWB Sedan and Wagon alone.

Ya, all 3 series are long wheel base in china I think. I am with you.

My big issue is as we all argue here, the feel difference between a benz, bmw, and Audi were dramatically different, and lately those 3 seem to just be coasting on their brand value and they have all become very similar. I want a bmw that feels like "an ultimate driving machine".

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

US market is a different place to Europe. Here in the UK the BMW is never worst in class, in any comparison tests. The Jaguar XE may pip the 3-series in the steering/handling. The Alfa is now in the running, but not a serious car for most users. 3-series is still the car to have.

The AutoCar review is typical of how we see the 3-series over here.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/3-series



Now it could well change again, in favour of the G20, as BMW have moved the driving dynamics game on, from what we read in the pre production driving reviews.

Honestly even in US the F30 is a competent competitor against A4 and C-class even at last model year. Many people do associate stiffness and harsh rides to good handling, and F30 is not those, but F30 holds its own quite well in high speed sweepers and cloverleaves and twisties to be anything other than last of the pack.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Bimmerforlife

I've been riding on runflats now for almost 8 yrs on my E90 and I feel like I've forgotten what it's like to ride on non run flats. My next car (ready to buy but still not sure what to get) will not be run flats. I've been through several brands and there all the same harsh and rough riding. It's got to the point where people would rather not take my car because it's too harsh of a ride and I know it's the tires.

its a harsh ride and the suspension is designed around them... that suspension when pushed hard fails because the tires are supposed to make up for its imperfections... this is an extremely poor approach imho

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by ShawnPaul

Ya, all 3 series are long wheel base in china I think. I am with you.

My big issue is as we all argue here, the feel difference between a benz, bmw, and Audi were dramatically different, and lately those 3 seem to just be coasting on their brand value and they have all become very similar. I want a bmw that feels like "an ultimate driving machine".

The only way to get that is to go for an ///M car.

The problem is once you go ///M you can never go back. Your ruined. It's like sitting 1st class/business class on an airplane. Once you do that you realize coach totally sucks.

[praxis218]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

The only way to get that is to go for an ///M car.

The problem is once you go ///M you can never go back. Your ruined. It's like sitting 1st class/business class on an airplane. Once you do that you realize coach totally sucks.

Does the M2 drive like a real M car?

It's cheap and affordable, but it's so ugly from the rear.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by cupojava

Does the M2 drive like a real M car?

It's cheap and affordable, but it's so ugly from the rear.

Yes and I've driven the N55 M2 on a track.

I hear you on the styling but that's a personal preference.

[praxis218]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Yes and I've driven the N55 M2 on a track.

I hear you on the styling but that's a personal preference.

Yeah definitely, it's all subjective.

There's one parked in my high rise. The N55 M2 exhaust/engine sounds awesome when he guns it inside of the garage.

[DSH7]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

F30 holds its own quite well in high speed sweepers and cloverleaves and twisties to be anything other than last of the pack.

I can't count the number of comments and/or reviews that have said similar about the F30 coming alive when pushed hard. Kind of genius in a way... a nice comfy cruiser on boring highways and around town in stop and go traffic, and a competent sports sedan in the canyons and on track.

That being said I still put on Ohlins coilovers Eibach ARBs and Powerflex bushings. I'm pretty happy with my F30.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by DSH7

I can't count the number of comments and/or reviews that have said similar about the F30 coming alive when pushed hard. Kind of genius in a way... a nice comfy cruiser on boring highways and around town in stop and go traffic, and a competent sports sedan in the canyons and on track.

That being said I still put on Ohlins coilovers Eibach ARBs and Powerflex bushings. I'm pretty happy with my F30.

It is good that BMW starts to put FSDs standard on G20.

Yes F30 can be deceiving for the impatient, fthose who spend enough time with the car will trust the chassis in those tight curves and corners.

[ShawnPaul]

Originally Posted by cupojava

Does the M2 drive like a real M car?

It's cheap and affordable, but it's so ugly from the rear.

I was underwhelmed by the m2. It's the best of the m cars available today by far in my mind, but with all of these cars, the priority is on balancing speed, comfort and easy to drive. When you drive around normal city streets the car is flat out boring. You need to push it to have fun. But maybe this isn't a complaint about the m2 specifically, maybe it's the industry. Many Track cars still have hydraulic assist steering to give feedback. The old m cars were made for people who wanted a lot of interaction and feedback to cut close to the limit. Current performance cars assume that drivers are idiots and need to be saved from themselves so they mute the experience and have features to allow a novice to travel at great speed without worry. I just wish that the competition packs went with the older steering racks and made the back end move around move at lower speeds.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by ShawnPaul

I was underwhelmed by the m2. It's the best of the m cars available today by far in my mind, but with all of these cars, the priority is on balancing speed, comfort and easy to drive. When you drive around normal city streets the car is flat out boring. You need to push it to have fun. But maybe this isn't a complaint about the m2 specifically, maybe it's the industry. Many Track cars still have hydraulic assist steering to give feedback. The old m cars were made for people who wanted a lot of interaction and feedback to cut close to the limit. Current performance cars assume that drivers are idiots and need to be saved from themselves so they mute the experience and have features to allow a novice to travel at great speed without worry. I just wish that the competition packs went with the older steering racks and made the back end move around move at lower speeds.

There’s a generation of people out there looking forward to the day that RWD is outlawed for being unsafe. Just to show you what you’re up against. You have progress to thank, and if you want something like an old M car, then an old M car you must buy, for better or worse.

Personally I quite like the 2’s slightly bob-tailed rear end. YMMV, if that’s even allowed on the internet any more!

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by DSH7

I can't count the number of comments and/or reviews that have said similar about the F30 coming alive when pushed hard. Kind of genius in a way... a nice comfy cruiser on boring highways and around town in stop and go traffic, and a competent sports sedan in the canyons and on track.

That being said I still put on Ohlins coilovers Eibach ARBs and Powerflex bushings. I'm pretty happy with my F30.

They’ve been doing that since the E30. Never has it been more obvious that there is nothing new under the sun .

(Not the E21, mind. The 323i was ready to bite you sideways just when you were parking it!)

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by ShawnPaul

How many reviews have no bias? Virtually all reviews are paid for or sponsored by someone.

You’re looking for a conspiracy and I’m afraid there just isn’t one. In no corner of the world, in any language (some of them you won’t even understand ) did the F30 come plumb bottom of its class, in anything. In your mind, I’ve no doubt that it does. That’s your opinion - but it isn’t anyone else’s.

Ok maybe it’s an Illuminati/planetary brainwash conspiracy sponsored by BMW against the people.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ShawnPaul

How many reviews have no bias? Virtually all reviews are paid for or sponsored by someone.

Zero reviews have no bias, as humans are incapable of pure objectivity. However, in the manner you speak of, most are not influenced by sponsorship. The editorial and sales staff at most established publications are quite separate and there is often a good deal of disdain between the two groups at any given publication. I know this from 25 years of participating as a host at various press events for new vehicle launches for a global auto company. After riding with, dining with, and talking with the writers, and also knowing the sales guys who called on me back at my office, my conclusion is that the writers go out of their way to ignore the sales guys' hopes and dreams of more ad pages and stay "pure" to their own reactions. I also know after buying tons of pages, we would still get the product criticism that was probably deserved.