[A4W]

If there's no American market for an M wagon why does Mercedes sell the E63 wagon? They say the E-Class AMG customers are their most loyal and the wealthiest. Jaguar offers the XF Sportbrake. Volvo is committed to the V60 non-cross-country wagon. Yes, it's a niche market. But it's a market. Also, trends change. Just because BMW wagons haven't sold well in the past doesn't mean they aren't keen to try again.

How many of you dumping on wagons have dogs? Trying to get big dogs to jump in and out of a tall SUV can be a challenge, especially when they get older. This is from someone who's had various Subaru and BMW wagons over the years. Getting them into an M3 back seat is a bit easier but a wagon would be ideal!

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Dante

No, not the same mistake all over again!!!
One would think that BMW should have learned from their E34 and E61 mistakes. Nobody cares about an M5 Touring! An M3 Touring would appeal to a much broader audience. Cheaper and more performance oriented.
I would buy an M3 Touring, but never an M5 Touring.

I still have my Interlagos Blue E61. Keep it in perfect working order as my All year workhorse, the application of the Winter compulsory tyres allows a great deep clean of the standards in order to re-apply in the Spring. All service bulletins and fluid changes adhered to as is the expected wear and tear. Now 10 years old. And no major serious issues apart from the airbag recall.
However from present M5 to the E61 shows how dated it actually is.
V10 is still a screamer.


So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by A4W

If there's no American market for an M wagon why does Mercedes sell the E63 wagon? They say the E-Class AMG customers are their most loyal and the wealthiest. Jaguar offers the XF Sportbrake. Volvo is committed to the V60 non-cross-country wagon. Yes, it's a niche market. But it's a market. Also, trends change. Just because BMW wagons haven't sold well in the past doesn't mean they aren't keen to try again.

How many of you dumping on wagons have dogs? Trying to get big dogs to jump in and out of a tall SUV can be a challenge, especially when they get older. This is from someone who's had various Subaru and BMW wagons over the years. Getting them into an M3 back seat is a bit easier but a wagon would be ideal!

They don't sell exceptionally well to justify the costs in certification as customers would prefer and especially now the new GLE.

[gabe925]

who tf thinks its not favored in the US. I would so buy one. Id also take a e60 m5 touring. BMWNA you are messin up

[superduty]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That is not how it works. Regardless of shared content, each model must be crash tested separately. Also, costs to certify a powertrain are on a per vehicle basis too, although I believe there is some economy of scale there.

My point was a none of the parts needed to construct an federalized wagon need to be developed. They already exist.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I disagree. It is a fact that neither the RS4 Avant nor the C55/C63 Estate has ever been sold in the US, despite that those models exist and could be imported (in contrast to BMW's situation where no M3 Touring exists). The reason that those are not imported is not because Mercedes and Audi do not like money, nor because they want to frustrate enthusiasts pining for performance wagons. Instead, they are not imported because it would not be profitable to do so.

I was referring to the E class wagon, either the E450 or E63 and the S4 Avant (which is no long sold stateside). None of these models are/were big sellers, yet MB and Audi bring/brought them over.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Furthermore, the wagons that Mercedes and Audi import to the US have no counterpart in the BMW stable, except for the E400 Estate. It is true that BMW sits out of that segment while Mercedes and Volvo have kept it going for multiple generations in the US, and now Jaguar has thrown its has thrown its hat into the ring. After the E61 generation exited production, BMW instead tried to compete with the 5GT and now the 6GT. The GT form factor has largely been a failure in the US, to the effect that the 3GT will not be followed up by a 4GT here (and maybe nowhere), and the 6GT is probably not going to see a follow up here either (again, maybe nowhere). It would indeed be nice to see a G31 540i in the US instead, but that would do little to address the high performance wagon desires being expressed in this thread.

Direct competition to BMW models is irrelevant to my point. Since the available wagon models from any manufacturer is limited, all of them compete against each other. If I want a wagon in the US I consider anything that's on the market.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Every automaker would rather sell you an SUV than a passenger can because they are generally more profitable. In the US, this is perhaps more true than anywhere else in the world due to CAFE favoring light trucks, which SUVs typically (but not always - see X1/X2) are.

This is a chicken or egg situation. As I said in my previous post, if the only thing available on the dealer lot are SUVs, that is what is going to sell. If dealers for all brands only had wagons, they would sell since most buyer don't order the cars they purchase.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by superduty

My point was a none of the parts needed to construct an federalized wagon need to be developed. They already exist.

Sure, but your words suggested sales numbers not being an operative concern. The reality is that regardless of shared content, each form factor must be independently certified. So it only makes sense to sell models that justify that cost. In other words, regulatory costs do play a role in automakers’ decisions - you cannot just limit the analysis to manufacturing costs.

I was referring to the E class wagon, either the E450 or E63 and the S4 Avant (which is no long sold stateside). None of these models are/were big sellers, yet MB and Audi bring/brought them over.

And BMW sells the 3 Series Touring here while Mercedes doesn’t bring the C Class Estate which is their equivalent. Obviously these aren’t arbitrary decisions. If BMW’s competitors brought their full line up to the US, there would be more room to criticize BMW’s approach. But they don’t. Everyone picks a limited subset of these low volume models, and that choice is based around the data that each manufacture has regarding which products are the most likely to be profitable.

To wit, the S4 Avant you mention is gone because it was no longer profitable. Again, not because Audi wants to throw away money or taunt enthusiasts.

BTW, thanks for the reminder that the E400 became the E450 for MY2019 (10% power bump).

Direct competition to BMW models is irrelevant to my point. Since the available wagon models from any manufacturer is limited, all of them compete against each other. If I want a wagon in the US I consider anything that's on the market.

Exactly. Further bolstering the strategy to only import a limited selection that is carefully chosen to maximize profitablity.

This is a chicken or egg situation. As I said in my previous post, if the only thing available on the dealer lot are SUVs, that is what is going to sell. If dealers for all brands only had wagons, they would sell since most buyer don't order the cars they purchase.

Dealers sell what manufacturers build, manufacturers build what people want.

Now, as I pointed out in a later post, it is true that manufacturers spend money influencing buyers’ decisions. They try to convince you to buy what they can sell for the most profit. And it is furthermore true that it is, generally speaking, more profitable to sell trucks, which most SUVs are and which most wagons are not. But this is an industry wide phenomena not limited to BMW. If BMW tried to buck the trend, rejected SUVs, and pushed wagons onto the market, it would simply cause buyers to go elsewhere.

The possible upside here is that, as SUVs evolve, they become more wagon-like. Whether that means vehicle/ride height and weight can eventually evolve back to pre-SUV days, however, is an open question. It seems unlikely from today’s perspective, but who knows.

[CSBM5]

The most profitable way for BMW to create and import a G81 M3 wagon to the USA? Have it be the launch vehicle and arrive 6+ months ahead of the sedan. Allow a wide choice of colors including pure paints like Imola, Japanrot. Front loading the market with only available wagon M3s would surely help the business case. They'd probably be shocked at how many they could sell, er lease I mean (since BMW hardly sells new cars in the USA anymore, especially in the M3 price range and up).

Well, it's fun to dream this stuff up anyway...

[MSCD]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure, but...

You make excellent points. Unfortunately people don't put their money where their mouth is on wagons. I get complements all the time 'love a wagon' yet barely anyone buys them.

Ford are killing of sedans slowly in favor of crossover/ SUV - although I notice the Buick has a wagon in their line up now!

As a Brit living in the States there is a reluctance/ stigma for hatchbacks and wagons. Europe loves them. An SUV is a jacked up hatchback... go figure.

It's a shame but you are most probably right that BMW won't bring it here if they every make it, that said they brought the 3GT and the 5/6GT knowing that they're not a popular shape. In fact the new Honda Accord and Kia Stinger both have a 'fastback' styling. Maybe there is a market for people who don't want to follow the norm.

I'll keep dreaming.

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by MSCD

You make excellent points. Unfortunately people don't put their money where their mouth is on wagons. I get complements all the time 'love a wagon' yet barely anyone buys them.

Ford are killing of sedans slowly in favor of crossover/ SUV - although I notice the Buick has a wagon in their line up now!

As a Brit living in the States there is a reluctance/ stigma for hatchbacks and wagons. Europe loves them. An SUV is a jacked up hatchback... go figure.

It's a shame but you are most probably right that BMW won't bring it here if they every make it, that said they brought the 3GT and the 5/6GT knowing that they're not a popular shape. In fact the new Honda Accord and Kia Stinger both have a 'fastback' styling. Maybe there is a market for people who don't want to follow the norm.

I'll keep dreaming.

Perhaps it's gas prices? Gas is expensive abroad 2X-3X what we pay here in the states. If US people need utility and sport they could make a case for a m3 wagon. But in the US now with the x3m and x4m coming out....sorry wagon forum bros....a m3 wagon ain't going to happen.

[Falafel Combo]

Ok, so like 5 people on the forum would buy this. And only in RWD. Only in 6MT. Only in competition. Only in ...

BMW is going down a rabbit hole with this one.

[MSCD]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

Perhaps it's gas prices? Gas is expensive abroad 2X-3X what we pay here in the states. If US people need utility and sport they could make a case for a m3 wagon. But in the US now with the x3m and x4m coming out....sorry wagon forum bros....a m3 wagon ain't going to happen.

Gas/ petrol prices are an issue as is the road tax on higher performance cars in Europe. That said there is a good performance car market.

In the UK the roads aren't wide enough on the whole for large SUV's - that would put me off!

Alpina really only sold the B6 GC in the US - shame they didn't offer the wagon.

I doubt we will see the M3 wagon too.

[Quattro98]

Would love to see the Alpina B5 wagon in the US.



Looking at the new M5 as my next car since most accounts suggest it both has a better ride quality and more balanced handling than the E63S, but the wagon is appealing.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by Quattro98

Would love to see the Alpina B5 wagon in the US.



Looking at the new M5 as my next car since most accounts suggest it both has a better ride quality and more balanced handling than the E63S, but the wagon is appealing.

Yeah the B5 Touring is the best we'll get. You can also get them in Alpina Green with yellow pin striping

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I still have my Interlagos Blue E61. Keep it in perfect working order as my All year workhorse, the application of the Winter compulsory tyres allows a great deep clean of the standards in order to re-apply in the Spring. All service bulletins and fluid changes adhered to as is the expected wear and tear. Now 10 years old. And no major serious issues apart from the airbag recall.
However from present M5 to the E61 shows how dated it actually is.
V10 is still a screamer.


So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one.

Sorry Scott but you've given me a signature

[StealYourFace]

Christ even in camo that thing looks like an e39.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Rayers1997

Blows my mind how many M drivers (who clearly want performance) get the USS X5M and say they wouldn't want a wagon. I just don't understand not wanting a car that fits everything your SUV fits but performs like a car and gets car fuel economy.

I think the logic here is... US performance car buyers dont look for practicality like other regions. These buyers typically have other cars and don't want to compromise in any way... the wagon adds weight and doesnt really appear to look like a sporty car. The x5m works because its an suv and no one expects car like handling... albeit it still does wonders.

[Darkfleet]

concept

[mose121]

We're not even going to get the G21, forget about a G81.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by Darkfleet

concept

Lose those 2 series rims

Nice render tho

[seis-speed]

This would be amazing!!!

People that are opposed to this, please explain?

[x5mannn]

Originally Posted by seis-speed

This would be amazing!!!

People that are opposed to this, please explain?

M3 Touring
Now we are talking!!!!!!

[richardg]

It likely won't happen but I can dream! I have been looking at the E63 and Panamera estate for a few weeks now to replace my Macan GTS. I'd love something around this size that was very fast. I know the market is small but there is a lack of midsize estates here. I don't really want a 198inch long Panamera but that's what looks like is going to happen. If BMW is listening please take my money!