[KTN]

Originally Posted by einscot

no, some of us don't want a watered down M3 in order to drive our cars. sure some people claim they want a purist car, but if i wanted my car to do everything for me, i'd buy a tesla. if P and AM can both build 500+ HP MT cars, BMW should reconsider their strategy

Originally Posted by einscot

do you know of another sedan with MT we should go to instead?

i'm guessing you've never driven the "track star" by the snarkiness in your comment

Do you realize the connection between your two comments?

Do YOU know of another sedan with MT you want to go to?

At least BMW seems like they want to try and cater to those who want a manual. If currently that's only feasible to them cost- and effort-wise by capping power to be able to use readily available "clutch-ware", is that so offensive to you?

Because I can just imagine the comments if a manual wasn't offered at all. People would be all over saying all kinds of sh1t about how they don't even care about the power increase but just wish there was a manual even if the power wasn't as high as it is.

Watered down? So if it has a slightly lower power output, but in turn you get a lighter "stripped down" "pure" car with a manual transmission that's watered down and you wouldn't even touch it with a stick? Can we decide here what we want? Is having only an AT M3 more watered down for you where the "car does everything for you" (guess we all could/should be top-tier racing drivers since the car does everything anyway), or is having a MT M3 available but with less power the worse scenario?

Like I believe somebody wrote above, maybe BMW is indeed trying to tell you to put your money where your mouth is. If they see there's a demand, the next iteration may just come at full power.

I also like the comments about how they'd up and get a manual, IF ONLY they weren't daily commuting here or there. Your peace of mind that you must be able to say there's a manual M3, while you damn well know and even say you're not going to opt for the MT version isn't going to help BMW see it's worth the cost to keep/make it a reality "on a large scale".

[seis-speed]

Originally Posted by KTN

You're completely missing the situation.

It's not whether that argument is in itself legitimate or not.

It's that the same people crying havoc over the manual being slightly down on power, in other arguments go as far as saying they'd rather drive a shopping cart if that's the only MT option, because it isn't the tenth-of-seconds of performance they care about.

Well, now they will get a manual version. Seems like it'll be down on power (could be for example for clutch reasons), but at least it'll be available, right? Hm, no, all of a sudden they aren't happy that at least that the "MT is saved", but go on complaining about why it has less power than the AT.

You're also missing the point on the reason for the difference. It's not down on power because it's the light-weight stripper version. It's down on power because of the drivetrain differences, the manual transmission. And please before this comes up again, nobody's saying a clutch able to handle the power of the AT version isn't possible. Similar or even higher performance MTs are around. But currently BMW probably didn't find dumping money into MTs all that feasible, or just simply wanted it accessible at a lower price-point so they couldn't justify the R&D costs, or [insert similar reasons here]. And if how some people here react is any real indication of the majority reaction (doubtful), we'll see if they will in the future...

Don't generalize too much. I am a "manual only" buyer and I am thrilled it lives on.

I may have considered the Xdrive for winter use, but 4doors and 6MT is a great combo no matter the packaging.

[Transfer]

I think the Pure concept sounds awesome. I'll never buy one because I'm a paddles guy now but the Pure car should be great. So it's down a smidge in power. It's still 444 hp or some such large number with boatloads of torque and will likely weight a fair bit less than the auto AWD car. What if it comes in at 3400 lbs? That would be great! Sounds like the car so many manual purists keep asking for.

For me, I'm just excited for an M AWD system. I had an M235xi which I think was the best all around small car ever but it lacked excitement. BMW really knows how to create a rear biased AWD in a balanced chassis, unlike Audi. >400 torque is so much better with all four wheels driven unless you just like burnouts.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by seis-speed

Don't generalize too much. I am a "manual only" buyer and I am thrilled it lives on.

I may have considered the Xdrive for winter use, but 4doors and 6MT is a great combo no matter the packaging.

Oh I don't mean to.

"And if how some people here react is any real indication of the majority reaction (doubtful), we'll see if they will in the future..."

I'm aware we as the whole forum aren't a majority representation of the market, and also that the negative side is usually more vocal.

You know where you stand, so read it accordingly. I've no problem with AT fans, MT fans, or people in the middle who appreciate both (hi). Everybody has their preferences and the reasons behind them. But it gets funny when the underlying values to their arguments suddenly shift once they're "fulfilled" so that they can continue to complain about some other aspect some more.

Wishing you patience until you get your hand on your new great combo down the line.

[hoyasaxa]

Originally Posted by Craigy

#thesadness

The excellent dual clutch was one of the best things the M3, M4 had going for it.

I'll pass on an automatic. I don't care how good the ZF or whatever is.

Agree. It's not just how fast the dual clutch is/was. It's also how it feels. You were able to get the benefits of an automated manual along with the feel of a manual transmission. I love my M2 DCT for this reason. Even if the ZF is almost as fast, it won't feel the same.

[trey100]

I get the people that track their cars wanting a DCT or quality automatic as clearly that provides them the best ability to improve their times. But find it really sad that there are still people who just drive this car and are ribbing the manual folks. Chasing magazine numbers is useless. DD Cars are just more interesting with manuals.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I think the Pure concept sounds awesome. I'll never buy one because I'm a paddles guy now but the Pure car should be great. So it's down a smidge in power. It's still 444 hp or some such large number with boatloads of torque and will likely weight a fair bit less than the auto AWD car. What if it comes in at 3400 lbs? That would be great! Sounds like the car so many manual purists keep asking for.

For me, I'm just excited for an M AWD system. I had an M235xi which I think was the best all around small car ever but it lacked excitement. BMW really knows how to create a rear biased AWD in a balanced chassis, unlike Audi. >400 torque is so much better with all four wheels driven unless you just like burnouts.

^ This. The G80/82 "Pure" is still going to accelerate better, handle better and all-out perform better than the F8x competition pack models - and probably the F8x CS models as well. To expect BMW to spend the R&D on a new manual just for the M2/3/4 is not financially realistic - if the prices of our cars were above $150K USD then maybe we could expect that - but for cars with a base price of just under $70k - May as well ask BMW to have an S65 optional for the "pure" as well... Not happening.

I think more choice is great - but man - people need to keep their expectations within realistic bounds. And besides - I'm sure a G80 pure manual is going to be faster in all performance metrics than my '18 ZCP - but yet I still haven't gotten tired of how fast and how well-handling my car is.

I agree with the other posters above - BMW could have followed the lead of all other sports sedans in the same or similar market and abandoned the 6MT altogether for the G8x generation (willing to bet the G8x will be the last generation to offer the 6MT)...

[frankiebones]

I’ll say it again, as long as I can appoint some luxury options in a “paired down” version of the M3, specifically a Heads Up Display, AND, the exterior styling that distinguishes the Pure from the AT levels is nice, I will be happy.

But even if I’m not happy I’ll buy the car.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Geo_M240i

Well that sucks. Any idea what models are affected? 2019+, 2020+?

I believe it started with the B58, N63TU, S63TU, all within the past 2 years.

[Seba77W]

Originally Posted by Craigy

#thesadness

The excellent dual clutch was one of the best things the M3, M4 had going for it.

I'll pass on an automatic. I don't care how good the ZF or whatever is.

Too bad. The ZF 8 speed is so much better than any dual clutch. It's just that amazing. It propels the M5 to 60 in just 2.7 seconds! And the shifting is perfect.

[Seba77W]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

Agree. It's not just how fast the dual clutch is/was. It's also how it feels. You were able to get the benefits of an automated manual along with the feel of a manual transmission. I love my M2 DCT for this reason. Even if the ZF is almost as fast, it won't feel the same.

The ZF is faster that's why it's replacing the DCT in all the M cars. Have you even driven one? Much better feel than DCT.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Seba77W

Too bad. The ZF 8 speed is so much better than any dual clutch. It's just that amazing. It propels the M5 to 60 in just 2.7 seconds! And the shifting is perfect.

Originally Posted by Seba77W

The ZF is faster that's why it's replacing the DCT in all the M cars. Have you even driven one? Much better feel than DCT.

The new M5 is faster than the old one, sure. But are the shifts objectively faster than the DCT?

“Feel” is subjective. I’ve never been in a car that had any form of a ZF that I liked in any respect, much less preferred over a DCT.

It is so boring that I can’t imagine ever owning one. In fact, my next car will be either an M2C, M3CS, or a P car because I refuse to put up with that sort of expensive in any car.

[Jbravo33]

These models look interesting. Only thing that's disappointing is a soft top convertible. But why? :

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have a DCT in my M4 and a ZF in my Jaguar. They are both excellent transmissions.

I don't understand the posts about the "feel" of the DCT. With any transmission whether DCT, AT or MT, shifts should be fast and smooth. Speed is about smoothness and jerky shifts upset and slow down the car.

If I am driving an AT (whether a ZF or a DCT) I want the shifts to fast and smooth whether the transmission is shifting automatically or I am shifting using the paddles.

I have driven the BMW M235i Factory Racer which has a ZF 8 Speed and is superb transmission. If that is what BMW puts in the next M3/4 I will have no issue going from the DCT to the ZF.

I have driven F90 M5 with shift mode on 3 bars and I was surprised how slow it was to downshift while braking. Also have to note that M235R has a different transmission program, larger tranny coolers and dual oil pickup in the engine to last endurance races.

The issue I have with ZFat is its maximum allowable rpm is rated around 7,300 rpm and hates to rev that high in the first place. Most people just short shift around 6,500 rpm because of torque band which is not really ideal on track applications where you want more free rpm in downshifts. Ever wonder why ZFat refuses to downshift fast while braking? Because the shift logic tries to protect going "too high of rpm" which otherwise would not be a problem on DCT. Downshifts are noticeably smoother and more instant on DCT for this reason (logic allows that because transmission can take it to 9000 rpm!). Upshifts are fine on both transmissions, although paddle response is marginally better on DCT.

It's ridiculous, the "torque logic" behind BMW ///Marketing. Their current M-DCT is rated around 530 ft lbs which is more than adequate to be used on M3/4 Pure models or standard ones, should they care to develop with AWD. And with the plausible discontinuation of CFRP driveshafts starting G8x , they are basically charging few grands more for less goodies. I have a feeling that this standard model on RWD mode will corner like a boat compared to F8x due to heavier front end....

[Ghostriderf80]

Originally Posted by Clemenza

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-sh...-g80-revealed/

Nice. Any word on M3 Competition ? I can't wait for the tuners to see figures of 600-800.

[Dino355]

Pure is stupid name but apart from that I like the concept of a lower powered manual version.

The car world is too hung up on chasing numbers and cars are just getting silly fast now.

Less is more.

[unc879wins]

M3 Legacy?

M3 Track?

M3 Traditional?

Pure may not be such a bad name after all, lol. Marketing peeps, have at it!

[iamdabest1]

Originally Posted by DCG

I'll take my M4 Coupe with M xDrive!

Will there be an m4 with x drive or only m3 with x drive ?

[E92Hwo2]

Originally Posted by iamdabest1

Will there be an m4 with x drive or only m3 with x drive ?

Most likely both M3 M4 will be offer as an option M X drive from my understanding

[2011zx10R]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

My daily Mk7 GTI has a stupidly weak clutch and tuning requires limited torque or a clutch upgrade. Much more is available for the DCT.

I'd imagine the G8x will be similar.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

My daily Mk7 GTI has a stupidly weak clutch and tuning requires limited torque or a clutch upgrade. Much more is available for the DCT.

I'd imagine the G8x will be similar.

+1 on the MK7 clutch. Had a performance pack GTI and went APR Stage 1 HO. Had the clutch replaced luckily under warranty.

I'm beyond happy with my 6mt f80 nicely optioned.

I need a sunroof, leather, great sound system 4 doors and 400+HP

A replacement M3 would need superior ride quality to my current M3 and be faster. One without the other is no good.

The new M2 seems to be the real deal performance car.

I always thought Straight pipes were corny although I have high respect for their reviews. The review they did on the M2 was stellar.

Looking forward to seeing the new M3

[2011zx10R]

Originally Posted by SanchoDivine

I'm not a purist, I just prefer manuals. I have absolutely zero interest in boring automatics to include DCTs. I got the F80 to drive and I drive it daily. I was hoping the next M3 I get would still be a manual, have AWD, and all the nice creature comforts (Upgraded stereo, hud, lights, navigation, full leather, etc). If I wanted a stripped down car to race I would look for a salvage vehicle (stolen and recovered) and build it into a race car not buy a new car. Lots of people also don't want the status of "entry level" aka poor person version.

This "pure" model will likely do extremely poorly in sales and BMW will blame it on the manual transmission.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

My daily Mk7 GTI has a stupidly weak clutch and tuning requires limited torque or a clutch upgrade. Much more is available for the DCT.

I'd imagine the G8x will be similar.

Originally Posted by Dino355

Pure is stupid name but apart from that I like the concept of a lower powered manual version.

The car world is too hung up on chasing numbers and cars are just getting silly fast now.

Less is more.

+1

[DreaminBMW]

Gimme a stick on the M4 and awd! That's all I want!!!