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      12-01-2018, 11:06 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eDrive View Post
Pretty much...

Yeah he gets dropped off and picked up from work by his mommy dearest.
It's just not that. Back in the day having a car gave people freedom and a way to connect to the rest of the world.

Now computers, internet, and smart phones connect people to the outside world. Young people feel they don't need a car to interact with those that interest them.

Way back when if you wanted to communicate with your friends or flirt with someone you had to drive to meet them. Now you can just snap chat your junk to them in the comfort of your bedroom.
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      12-02-2018, 04:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Too late for "what" exactly?

Does he know how to use a typewriter, rotary phone, or VCR or was it "too late" for those as well?
I see what you're trying to do, but your analogies make no sense. None of the technology in the items you mention were enjoyable and when their replacements came out, people had no problem moving onto the new tech without ever thinking about the old. This is not the case with manual transmissions where, to this day, many still prefer the enjoyment and "inconvenience" of rowing one's own gears despite the performance hit and greater effort involved.
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      12-02-2018, 05:33 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
It does not matter, people will not buy the manual...

Food for thought, there are 82 M3s (F80s) for sale, only 2 of them are manual.

There are 179 M4s for sale ATM, 13 of them are manual.

Manual is dying? people are not buying, especially when the autos are delivering so much more...."performance" when compared.^

Personally, as much as i love manuals....i think they suit the last get M cars much better (the NA engines), something about shifting at 8K+ rpms yourself is much more satisfying, it suited the car. New gen....manuals feel and even sound a bit off.
In general, you're correct. People simply aren't buying manuals. I can't believe Honda Accord offers a manual as the take rate must be like 0.02%. With that said, it's a bit more difficult to extrapolate that people aren't buying manual M3s and M4s based on your numbers.

The reality is when I was looking for a manual M3, many dealers did not have any and they all tried to steer me to a DCT, insisting that I test drive a DCT as it would change my mind (it didn't). I'm sure there were a fair number of people who wanted manual but settled for a DCT.

Also, there are other ways you can look at your data. You can say perhaps there are fewer manuals available because those are the first to get snatched up. When I sold my last car at carmax, the salesperson there said they always have a long list of people looking for M3s and M4s with manual transmissions so when those cars come in, they are quickly bought up because there are fewer available and they are in higher demand.
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      12-02-2018, 07:00 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Too late for "what" exactly?

Does he know how to use a typewriter, rotary phone, or VCR or was it "too late" for those as well?
It isn't subjectively or objectively more fun or engaging to use a VCR over a bluray player or online streaming. By your logic robots should be racing or riding horses not humans. I'm 25 and not married yet but I'll sure as hell teach my kids how to drive stick. Good thing that BMW, Porsche and Aston don't exclusively cater to bench racers and lazy couch potatoes. See how easy it is to make generalizations using false analogies?
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      12-02-2018, 09:37 AM   #115
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It never ceases to amaze how folks latch onto manuals but fail to acknowledge the awful electric steering and turbo motors which have taken more away from the M division than the DCT paddles alone...
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      12-02-2018, 02:08 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerIx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
It never ceases to amaze how folks latch onto manuals but fail to acknowledge the awful electric steering and turbo motors which have taken more away from the M division than the DCT paddles alone...
It's the last thing we can hold on to.
+1

And not to forget electric steering came along way and keep improving, same with turbos. Back in days you needed to wait for boost, not anymore and that is also getting better and better.

So yes WE WANT MANUAL and don't want to lose it, that's the best part of engagement and fun!!!!
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      12-02-2018, 02:22 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan l. View Post
Pretty sad to think my son who is only 3 now will not be able to experience a manual transmission for himself. Part of why I had to get my F80 3 months ago in manual was to show him how its done before its too late.
I mean, the older cars aren't going away....
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      12-02-2018, 03:09 PM   #118
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      12-02-2018, 05:18 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Wrong. Your ignorance: 100%
Are you saying that perceived demand is actually lower? Because actual demand can't really be any lower...

If there is localised demand in the US, then they should absolutely build something special for them, at a cost. I don't want to be subsiding some rich men any more than I already must .
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      12-02-2018, 05:21 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Wrong. Your ignorance: 100%
Pretty sure people not buying them is the reason they are going away.
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      12-02-2018, 06:30 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eDrive View Post
Pretty much...

Yeah he gets dropped off and picked up from work by his mommy dearest.
And this....is why we are screwed !

It will be a sad day indeed when those folks are running shit.
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      12-02-2018, 07:42 PM   #122
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Sticks,wow It's been 20 years since I have driven one of that.
I think M3/M4 are now too big and too heavy also too luxurious so I don't really care if they come in with manual transmission..,
However stick is a must with M2s'and Z4s'
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      12-02-2018, 07:45 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterZgo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head View Post
It does not matter, people will not buy the manual...

Food for thought, there are 82 M3s (F80s) for sale, only 2 of them are manual.

There are 179 M4s for sale ATM, 13 of them are manual.

Manual is dying? people are not buying, especially when the autos are delivering so much more...."performance" when compared.^

Personally, as much as i love manuals....i think they suit the last get M cars much better (the NA engines), something about shifting at 8K+ rpms yourself is much more satisfying, it suited the car. New gen....manuals feel and even sound a bit off.
In general, you're correct. People simply aren't buying manuals. I can't believe Honda Accord offers a manual as the take rate must be like 0.02%. With that said, it's a bit more difficult to extrapolate that people aren't buying manual M3s and M4s based on your numbers.

The reality is when I was looking for a manual M3, many dealers did not have any and they all tried to steer me to a DCT, insisting that I test drive a DCT as it would change my mind (it didn't). I'm sure there were a fair number of people who wanted manual but settled for a DCT.

Also, there are other ways you can look at your data. You can say perhaps there are fewer manuals available because those are the first to get snatched up. When I sold my last car at carmax, the salesperson there said they always have a long list of people looking for M3s and M4s with manual transmissions so when those cars come in, they are quickly bought up because there are fewer available and they are in higher demand.
You contradicted yourself in a way. If BMW quadrupled the amount of manuals they sold, they'd still sell every single one at MSRP.

I know many dealers....they order automatics because they sell faster...not becuase they won't sell. At the same time, BMW is fine with it because they'd prefer to sell one version rather than two.

While I think 75% of today's M-car buyers are buying for name/image and simply cannot drive a manual, to say that manuals don't sell due to lack of demand is a huge fallacy.

BMW has lost touch with the "ultimate driving machine". Just look at how out of touch they are when they talk about a few 10ths of a second advantage, or call paddle shifters 'sporty'. When has there ever been someone who bought a manual solely to "go faster"? Sure, they were faster than some of the early autos, but those folks were buying manuals anyway.

BMW is more focused on taking driving away from the driver than they are making it enjoyable (autonomous). Once upon a time you'd think that the LAST group of car enthusiasts that would go along with autonomous vehicles would be BMW drivers. But now, I get the feeling that most on this forum are fine with it as long as it has the BMW badge in it. As long as thats the case, then I guess BMW is no longer BMW. Then again...look at the cess pool Germany has become. Once a great country that is now, in some areas, barely discernable from some 3rd world countries.
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      12-02-2018, 08:04 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC05 View Post
Sticks,wow It's been 20 years since I have driven one of that.
I think M3/M4 are now too big and too heavy also too luxurious so I don't really care if they come in with manual transmission..,
However stick is a must with M2s'and Z4s'
"Too luxurious" is not the word I use to describe an M3/4...
Historically been sporty and should stay that way. This "pseudo" luxury is a farce.
The 5, 6, 7 & 8 should maintain the luxury aspect of the brand.
The lower calibers should maintain the feeling of sport, drive ability, & life.
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      12-02-2018, 10:03 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by eDrive View Post
Pretty much...

Yeah he gets dropped off and picked up from work by his mommy dearest.
And this....is why we are screwed !

It will be a sad day indeed when those folks are running shit.
Thank God I'll be living in Bora Bora by then.

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      12-02-2018, 10:05 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC05 View Post
Sticks,wow It's been 20 years since I have driven one of that.
I think M3/M4 are now too big and too heavy also too luxurious so I don't really care if they come in with manual transmission..,
However stick is a must with M2s'and Z4s'
The Z4 only comes with a stick on the entry level.
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      12-02-2018, 10:06 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerIx View Post
Plot twist the current M2 weighs the same as the M4


Yes indeed.

The M2 Chubby.
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      12-02-2018, 10:53 PM   #128
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Looks like I owe you $200 SYT_Shadow

Lol, a bet I am happy to lose
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      12-03-2018, 01:34 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Interesting that, with regard to the MT, he specifically talks about the M4 and does not include the M3. It could mean nothing, or it could mean that only the coupe will get the MT. Sure it would be easy to share it between both, but if you look at the marketplace, there are zero MT equipped performance sedans available now (nothing above WRX STi), whereas MT equipped performance coupes still exist in many shapes and sizes.
Not sure how many know, but there's a Genesis G70 RWD sedan new for 2019 with a 2.0 turbo four-banger and a six-speed manual at about the same price-point as the WRX. Perhaps not better performance there than the Subaru but more upmarket IMO. Anyway, a new 6MT sedan is rare enough to be worth a mention.
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      12-03-2018, 01:38 AM   #130
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      12-03-2018, 05:33 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan l. View Post
Pretty sad to think my son who is only 3 now will not be able to experience a manual transmission for himself. Part of why I had to get my F80 3 months ago in manual was to show him how its done before its too late.
I'm keeping my Z4 3.0si for this reason. My 9 y/o loves that car more than my E92 M3.

Hopefully the M4 will have a better exhaust note. That with MT, I may have to pick it up.
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      12-03-2018, 08:21 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aamodtpw View Post
Not sure how many know, but there's a Genesis G70 RWD sedan new for 2019 with a 2.0 turbo four-banger and a six-speed manual at about the same price-point as the WRX. Perhaps not better performance there than the Subaru but more upmarket IMO. Anyway, a new 6MT sedan is rare enough to be worth a mention.
Yes, I've pointed out that car in various MT-related discussions over the last couple months. However, I think most will agree it does not deserve the "performance sedan" label. Furthermore, when we are talking about superlatives and performance sedans, typically power-to-weight and/or acceleration are what matters, and the WRX STi should have that car beat easily on both counts. Even the 6MT Accord 2.0T (a vehicle that no one here would argue is a "performance sedan") would probably be reasonably close in a race. Heck, the upcoming 2020 Jetta GLI - expected to be introduced early next year in Detroit with about 230hp and confirmed to keep the MT option - might even just turn out to be a more fun package overall than the G70 2.0T 6MT.

The G70 does, however, lay claim to being the only (maybe last ever) RWD sedan on the market in the US with an available MT.
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