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      04-11-2019, 09:40 AM   #1
razman
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Limiting factor in manual transmissions?

The M3 pure, which will be the only M3 available in stick, will have about 20 to 25 horsepower less than it's automatic counterpart. I would like to know what exactly is the limiting factor in manual transmissions that BMW believes they need to do this. I read somewhere that BMW thinks that above 450 hp, manual cars suffer from degraded "shift feel," and that although American manufacturers have manual transmissions that are outfitted in high hp cars, BMW feels these transmissions/gearboxs feel heavy and clunky.

I've never driven a 500+ hp stick car like a Viper to know what they're talking about. What exactly is their concern? More than a decade ago Porsche, another German manufacturer, had a 605 hp Carrera GT that was available only in stick. Was the "shift feel" there shit too? Hard to believe it was.
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      04-11-2019, 10:28 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by razman View Post
The M3 pure, which will be the only M3 available in stick, will have about 20 to 25 horsepower less than it's automatic counterpart. I would like to know what exactly is the limiting factor in manual transmissions that BMW believes they need to do this. I read somewhere that BMW thinks that above 450 hp, manual cars suffer from degraded "shift feel," and that although American manufacturers have manual transmissions that are outfitted in high hp cars, BMW feels these transmissions/gearboxs feel heavy and clunky.

I've never driven a 500+ hp stick car like a Viper to know what they're talking about. What exactly is their concern? More than a decade ago Porsche, another German manufacturer, had a 605 hp Carrera GT that was available only in stick. Was the "shift feel" there shit too? Hard to believe it was.
It's worth calling out that this isn't fact yet, it's mostly conjecture. Even our resident insider has said bmw is evaluating multiple combinations with manual including awd and have not fully finalized yet.

Although it makes some sense that the manual will be limited to only the purist version it's not confirmed to be the case yet.

This was one rumor that the troll brigade picked up on and basically got repeated so many times it is now considered fact. Unless there is new information I personally am not going to judge why it's tied to a particular model until I know the facts.
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      04-11-2019, 10:52 AM   #3
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Every every product feature decision is - to one degree or another - subject to marketing considerations.

Looking for technical justification for product content is mostly a dead end game. You could relentlessly quest for any engineering-related motivation for a corporation not offering some feature, find absolutely nothing, victoriously declare that no limitations exist, and still be no closer to knowing what the product would/could/should look like in its final form than before you started.

A big part of marketing is about telling stories - stories about why products are the way they are. And as we know from watching movies and TV, sometimes stories are totally true, sometimes they are merely based on true events, and sometimes they are totally made up.

The one thing you can be pretty darn sure of is that if a product doesn't exist, it probably would not generate profit. At the very least, you can be sure that lots of smart people crunching through lots of data determined that the risk of such a product being unprofitable made it a poor case for further pursuit and investment. And on the other side of the coin, if a product does exist but performs like absolute crap in the marketplace, well, some of those people probably got fired. Unless the poor performance is due to shoddy craftsmanship, in which case maybe the engineers get canned and the marketing guys get to live on and tell more stories.
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      04-11-2019, 12:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Every every product feature decision is - to one degree or another - subject to marketing considerations.

Looking for technical justification for product content is mostly a dead end game. You could relentlessly quest for any engineering-related motivation for a corporation not offering some feature, find absolutely nothing, victoriously declare that no limitations exist, and still be no closer to knowing what the product would/could/should look like in its final form than before you started.

A big part of marketing is about telling stories - stories about why products are the way they are. And as we know from watching movies and TV, sometimes stories are totally true, sometimes they are merely based on true events, and sometimes they are totally made up.

The one thing you can be pretty darn sure of is that if a product doesn't exist, it probably would not generate profit. At the very least, you can be sure that lots of smart people crunching through lots of data determined that the risk of such a product being unprofitable made it a poor case for further pursuit and investment. And on the other side of the coin, if a product does exist but performs like absolute crap in the marketplace, well, some of those people probably got fired. Unless the poor performance is due to shoddy craftsmanship, in which case maybe the engineers get canned and the marketing guys get to live on and tell more stories.
All good points and I agree.

I personally think it will be all marketing and a little tune sort of like MPPSK on a 340. It's so easy to do on a turbo car they'll just boost AT to make it look better than 6MT and then someone will figure out how to tune 6MT M3 to the same levels and beyond of AT M3.

Bottom line I wouldn't worry about published HP if you really want a 6MT M3 just like I do.
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      04-11-2019, 01:29 PM   #5
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The F10 M5 and F13 M6 were available with 423kw and 680nm with the 6MT.

However when the F13 M6 LCI happened and the figures changed to 441kw and 700nm for the Competition Package they didn't sell it with a 6MT any more.

This is largely the same box that is in the F80 M3 of course as well.

We know the X3M power spec is the same as what the G80 M3 will have, 375kw and 600nm. Well below the spec that BMW have made in the past with a manual.
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      04-16-2019, 07:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
It's worth calling out that this isn't fact yet, it's mostly conjecture. Even our resident insider has said bmw is evaluating multiple combinations with manual including awd and have not fully finalized yet.

Although it makes some sense that the manual will be limited to only the purist version it's not confirmed to be the case yet.

This was one rumor that the troll brigade picked up on and basically got repeated so many times it is now considered fact. Unless there is new information I personally am not going to judge why it's tied to a particular model until I know the facts.
Ok, good to know.
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      04-16-2019, 07:45 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
The F10 M5 and F13 M6 were available with 423kw and 680nm with the 6MT.

However when the F13 M6 LCI happened and the figures changed to 441kw and 700nm for the Competition Package they didn't sell it with a 6MT any more.
Very interesting. I did not know that. If indeed they restrict the M3 manual to a tuned down version, it's starting to sound like more and more of a marketing reason.
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      04-16-2019, 08:28 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by razman View Post
Very interesting. I did not know that. If indeed they restrict the M3 manual to a tuned down version, it's starting to sound like more and more of a marketing reason.
BMW will do anything to force us all in a Tesla microwave one day
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      04-16-2019, 02:59 PM   #9
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I don't really care to be honest, my 6MT M4 pushing 600+ hp hasn't really given me any problems *knock on wood* and I expect to tune the next vehicle as well, these stock numbers really mean nothing to be honest. I'd honestly take a slightly detuned M3/4 any day if I could possibly have AWD AND a 6mt as well, nothing some ECU work couldn't fix
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      04-18-2019, 03:33 PM   #10
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A more realistic reason why they are doing it might be for emissions. It might be easier to reach a emissions figure with an auto. So with a manual, they might have to detune it to meet the same emissions standards. But I do have alternate theory of why they might be doing this.

My theory is that detuning the manual and extolling the virtues of an automatic gives a lot of car shoppers "an out" or an excuse to buy an automatic. I think there are a lot of people who are on the fence about buying a manual. Whether it's because they actually prefer an auto or they are getting older and don't want to deal with a clutch pedal.

So if someone calls them out for buying an automatic, they simply have to say that their car has more power and the transmission shifts quicker. It gives an actual performance reason to buy the automatic. They are less likely to experience buyer's remorse for buying a lesser car.

It does seem a bit ridiculous, but it is along the same lines of the printed clothes sizes being "optimistic." For all we know, these rumors are just to see how we'd react. They might even advertise lower power figures but then just put the same engine in.
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      04-19-2019, 03:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Even our resident insider has said bmw is evaluating multiple combinations with manual including awd and have not fully finalized yet.
Whoa whoa whoa - I must have wholesale missed that insider commentary.

If this comes to pass, BMW have an open invitation to my checkbook.
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      04-19-2019, 04:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Even our resident insider has said bmw is evaluating multiple combinations with manual including awd and have not fully finalized yet.
Whoa whoa whoa - I must have wholesale missed that insider commentary.

If this comes to pass, BMW have an open invitation to my checkbook.
Post 1 in "next gen g80 prototype breaks cover" thread

Latest insider info we have
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      04-19-2019, 04:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Post 1 in "next gen g80 prototype breaks cover" thread

Latest insider info we have
Quote:
Some versions will have RWD, others xDrive; both manual and automatic transmissions will be available. The reports that it will be Pure+manual+RWD, base+auto+xDrive, and Competition+auto+xDrive seem plausible but I don't yet want to claim that no other combos will be available
This part? Seems the most likely is the the Pure will be the only one with a manual option.
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      04-19-2019, 04:57 PM   #14
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My theory on why only the lower powered version will have manual is because on the Ring it ended up faster than the 8AT M-xdrive version (due to being much lighter).

BMW wants to sell more options, so they couldn't have that happening.
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      04-19-2019, 06:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyang92 View Post
My theory on why only the lower powered version will have manual is because on the Ring it ended up faster than the 8AT M-xdrive version (due to being much lighter).

BMW wants to sell more options, so they couldn't have that happening.
Lol that's a worse conspiracy theory than the night king is actually a targaryen

And to the above point yes the part where he says all combos are being tested but doesn't want to rule out that others will be available. Considering his accuracy of insider info I won't rule it out till he says they made a final decision
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      04-19-2019, 08:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
Whoa whoa whoa - I must have wholesale missed that insider commentary.

If this comes to pass, BMW have an open invitation to my checkbook.
+ 1 & Another European Delivery for sure!
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      04-19-2019, 10:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Every every product feature decision is - to one degree or another - subject to marketing considerations.

...

The one thing you can be pretty darn sure of is that if a product doesn't exist, it probably would not generate profit. At the very least, you can be sure that lots of smart people crunching through lots of data determined that the risk of such a product being unprofitable made it a poor case for further pursuit and investment.
Companies make mistakes at a higher degree than one might think. Porsche not offering a manual on 991.1 GT3’s is a recent example. It had underestimated the passions of it’s customer base, it is possibly, an all-time miss! Hopefully, that along with take rates on the M2 and F80 being so high for 6MT cars, that mistake is not made by BMW.
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      06-04-2019, 07:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Companies make mistakes at a higher degree than one might think. Porsche not offering a manual on 991.1 GT3’s is a recent example. It had underestimated the passions of it’s customer base, it is possibly, an all-time miss! Hopefully, that along with take rates on the M2 and F80 being so high for 6MT cars, that mistake is not made by BMW.
Excellent point. Porsche made a huge mistake and had to backtrack. I hope BMW was paying attention to that royal screw up.
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      06-04-2019, 07:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Companies make mistakes at a higher degree than one might think. Porsche not offering a manual on 991.1 GT3’s is a recent example. It had underestimated the passions of it’s customer base, it is possibly, an all-time miss! Hopefully, that along with take rates on the M2 and F80 being so high for 6MT cars, that mistake is not made by BMW.
This indeed a good counterexample. Still, the case for correction like this is nevertheless rare.

Let’s remember, too, that Porsche ended up coming out of this one better from the wear. As an immediate band-aid, they created the limited edition 911R with a version of the GT3’s 4L naturally aspirated offered exclusively with the MT which ended up fetching a tidy profit for their dealerships as I recall. Then, with that exercise having proved the demand was still there, they created another new model to follow-up - the GT3 Touring - which is in some ways the 911R by another name and remains the only way to get an MT in the GT3.

We’ll never know if Porsche’s profit is higher now than it would have been if they’d simply kept the manual in the GT3 option list to begin with. And, it’s true that it would be unfortunate for us if BMW had to go through similar hoops, but either way, the key is managing risk. Obviously bigger bets have potential for bigger rewards, and sometimes, even with careful research, it become obvious you left money on the table. BMW, however, has a different set of products, customers, and market conditions to work with.

Unfortunately, the latest rumors suggest even the “Pure” model may be in jeopardy, potentially leaving the manual transmission out of the M3/M4 party entirely. Hopefully that doesn’t happen.
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      06-04-2019, 08:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
This indeed a good counterexample. Still, the case for correction like this is nevertheless rare.

Let’s remember, too, that Porsche ended up coming out of this one better from the wear. As an immediate band-aid, they created the limited edition 911R with a version of the GT3’s 4L naturally aspirated offered exclusively with the MT which ended up fetching a tidy profit for their dealerships as I recall. Then, with that exercise having proved the demand was still there, they created another new model to follow-up - the GT3 Touring - which is in some ways the 911R by another name and remains the only way to get an MT in the GT3.

We’ll never know if Porsche’s profit is higher now than it would have been if they’d simply kept the manual in the GT3 option list to begin with. And, it’s true that it would be unfortunate for us if BMW had to go through similar hoops, but either way, the key is managing risk. Obviously bigger bets have potential for bigger rewards, and sometimes, even with careful research, it become obvious you left money on the table. BMW, however, has a different set of products, customers, and market conditions to work with.

Unfortunately, the latest rumors suggest even the “Pure” model may be in jeopardy, potentially leaving the manual transmission out of the M3/M4 party entirely. Hopefully that doesn’t happen.
Just one, minor correction... one can still order a 6mt in the "normal" GT3; manual is an option for both the GT3 and GT3 Touring, but manual is not an option for the GT3RS.
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      06-04-2019, 08:29 AM   #21
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Just one, minor correction... one can still order a 6mt in the "normal" GT3; manual is an option for both the GT3 and GT3 Touring, but manual is not an option for the GT3RS.
Thanks. I was going from memory and was going to check that - I should have.

At any rate, the game is still very different for BMW since they are not a boutique brand within one of the largest automotive conglomerates in the world like Porsche is within VAG. They are also up against a price ceiling in the very crowded, highly competitive luxury performance sedan market rather than being one of the few remaining games in town for high end sports cars which happen to stretch into supercar pricing territory.
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      06-04-2019, 08:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Thanks. I was going from memory and was going to check that - I should have.

At any rate, the game is still very different for BMW since they are not a boutique brand within one of the largest automotive conglomerates in the world like Porsche is within VAG. They are also up against a price ceiling in the very crowded, highly competitive luxury performance sedan market rather than being one of the few remaining games in town for high end sports cars which happen to stretch into supercar pricing territory.
FWIW, the price points of some of the ridiculous ///M4 variants reach closely into GT3 territory.
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