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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions BMW Development Chief Has Had Enough of 3 Series Critics

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      10-10-2018, 01:00 PM   #67
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Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans.
When did it become "cool" to hate your favorite car brands' products?
Has this become a basher's forum?
Enough with the lexus rear end comparisons. Most of you wouldn't even buy one for its performance nor its driving dynamics since they're all inferior to BMW.
If you can't stop lamenting how BMW's new models can't compare to its cars (E30, E46 and E90) of the past then maybe you should stay in the past.
Times have changed and cars will too.
Do you think a company would revert back to its previous generation's technology such as isntalling hydraulic steering to replace electronic in new cars? Perhaps this generation's steering is not quite as good (tbd) but at least they're improving it constantly and eventually they'll get there.
You can't stop progress and companies certainly won't go backwards.
Stats have shown that people have grown in height and weight over the years.
It's logical for the 3 series to grow as well to a certain extent but they also have to look at what the competition does. Besides, it needs to make room for the upcoming 4 door 2 series to compete with the A3/S3 and CLA which BMW has missed out on this segment. Lastly, a recurrent complaint of the F30 was poor rear legroom.
So what if it's slightly larger and a tad heavier. It offers so much more in terms of technology, comfort, road composure with advanced differential and dampers. It obliterates the previous generations on performance. Also, its structure rigidity are said to be much improved.
It's baffling to me that people think they're cool by pointing out immaterial and subjective negative areas while they choose not to mention all the other improvements the car has over its previous generations. I sure wouldn't miss the waterpump failure and fuel pump problem in my E90. Yes the steering was more precise but I sure don't miss its stiffness and that unforgiving suspension with the slightest road imperfection. I also don't miss that backseat where no one can fit.
BMW will continue to make luxury cars and aim to reclaim its #1 crown. It will do so by ensuring its new 3 series will appeal to the massive market of luxury segment buyers and not by yielding to the BMW purists or enthusiasts. BMW has already thrown them a bone with the M2. So shut up, get an M2 or stay in the past.

Last edited by khailuan; 10-10-2018 at 01:52 PM.. Reason: correct spelling mistakes
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      10-10-2018, 01:04 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khailuan View Post
Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans.
When did it become "cool" to hate your favorite car brands' products?
Has this become a basher's forum?
Enough with the lexus rear end comparisons. Most of you wouldn't even buy one for its performance nor its driving dynamics since they're all inferior to BMW.
If you can't stop lamenting how BMW's new models can't compare to its cars (E30, E46 and E90) of the past then maybe you should stay in the past.
Times have changed and cars will too.
Do you think a company would revert back to its previous generation's technology such as isntalling hydraulic steering to replace electronic in new cars? Perhaps this generation's steering is not quite as good (tbd) but at least they're improving it constantly and eventually they'll get there.
You can't stop progres and companies certainly won't go backwards.
Stats have shown that people have grown in height and weight over the years.
It's logical for the 3 series to grow as well to a certain extent but they also have to look at what the competition does. Besides, it needs to make room for the upcoming 4 door 2 series to compete with the A3/S3 and CLA which BMW has missed out on this segment. Lastly, a recurrent complaint of the F30 was poor rear legroom.
So what if it's slightly larger and a tad heavier. It offers so much more in terms of technology, comfort, road composure with advanced differential and dampers. It obliterates the previous generations on performance. Also, its structure rigidy are said to be much improved.
It's baffling to me that people think they're cool by pointing out immaterial and subjective negative areas while they choose not to mention all the other improvements the car has over its previous generations. I sure wouldn't miss the waterpump failure and fuel pump problem in my E90. Yes the steering was more precise but I sure don't miss its stiffness and that unforgiving suspension with the slightest road imperfection. I also don't miss that backseat where no one can fit.
BMW will continue to make luxury cars and aim to reclaim its #1 crown. It will do so by ensuring its new 3 series will appeal to the massive market of luxury segment buyers and not by yielding to the BMW purists or enthusiasts. BMW has already thrown them a bone with the M2. So shut up, get an M2 or stay in the past.
Incongruent post.

First asking if BMW fans should only cheer whatever BMW does (like "real friends" who only say whatever you do is right, even when you're wrong) and then talk about BMW not appeasing to BMW fans but to the mass market.

Pick your line of argument and come back.
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      10-10-2018, 01:04 PM   #69
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"First thing and this is for me the most important thing; you can drive fast and completely relaxed. You don't feel how fast you are."

I hope this was just what he hoped people wanted to hear. If any of us enthusiasts wanted that, we would be driving an F30 or Lexus without a single complaint.

Unfortunately, being in the car business I run into people constantly who dislike BMW’s for the very reasons we like them, so if BMW wants to sell cars to those people and steal market share from Lexus then it needs to make them suck. Just for the fun of it I drove a Lexus IS and wash shocked that the steering feel was indeed more like that of an old school BMW. Clearly Lexus wants to steal customers from BMW. What we end up with is a bunch of semi-autonomous boxes that all just have different styling and branding but feel almost the same.
If this new 3 series isn’t significantly better, BMW will have a growing problem on their hands when the 2 series moves to front wheel drive. What else will be left for us other than used BMW’s. Nothing I say.
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      10-10-2018, 01:10 PM   #70
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Lol idiots said exact same shit with the 46 came out. Too big, too fat, ugly, tech laden etc.

Thing about e46ers these days is most of em are poor ass kids. They paid 13k.

Let's not forget the CSL was SMG only (ie trash). Most of the guys who actually track em rip out the brakes, suspension, 6spd swap, engine mods, cage etc. driving experience doesn't even resemble a stock car at that point.

Fact is it's "cool" to hate on the new stuff even though deep down everyone driving some clapped out old M3 knows their car is inferior.
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      10-10-2018, 01:16 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by 530iAndroid View Post
If this new 3 series isn’t significantly better, BMW will have a growing problem on their hands when the 2 series moves to front wheel drive. What else will be left for us other than used BMW’s. Nothing I say.
I read that the 2 coupe will remain as the entry-level car with RWD, and the 2GC saloons (OK, sedans for y'all) and MPVs will be based on the UKL front-wheel-drive platform. So a sub 3-series RWD car may still be around.

All the shitting on the 3 series for not having a manual tranny comes from the Western side of a small, round table full of grouches in the corner of a massive, massive pub full of people who care only about speck, lease payments and motorway stability. The BMW chap was simply picking on people who were picking on BMW.

Interesting that the Alfa brigade are merely saying their prayers to give thanks that not every Guilia is exploding at the first corner and whilst their reliability may still suck mud, at least the car can cope with a gentle commute which is more than can be said for all the previous ones. Apparently, that makes the Guilia deadly competition (???). Audi drivers are just measuring speck, front tyre width and LCD screen size again, and all Merc drivers have to do is adjust their spectacles whenever a new one comes along. No car gets close to the meeja (and social meeja) frenzy of BMW.

It's like Rolex issuing a new Submariner. Rolex used to leave decades between updates, because they simply weren't needed, but now they produce a new one on a regular moddle-year cycle to keep the leaseholders happy, get the out of the old one and into a new one with better speck, so they can have their nice new shiny. But still, despite the gnashing and wailing of teeth, every other watchmaker wants to have something like a Submariner in their line-up.

And I thought the F10 was a good foil for the E39, much better than the previous E60 and seriously good looking. Here, everyone loved it. YMMV.
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      10-10-2018, 01:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Lol idiots said exact same shit with the 46 came out. Too big, too fat, ugly, tech laden etc.
Amen to that. Those of us old enough will remember the screams and mass rants of writers and editors when the squared-off, so-'90s E36 replaced the E30, with its new-fangled airbags, modern equipment and fancy electric motors powering things like "mirrors" and "rear windows".

If the E46 was the king, as everyone says it was, why was I unable to sell my mint 2004 330i for any more than £2.5k? Hey, it's got a hydraulic steering rack in good condition and no PAS fluid leaks, isn't that worth at least £5k alone : ))
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      10-10-2018, 01:22 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupojava View Post
My E90 sounded like it the whole car was exploding driving over the smallest potholes. The LCI F30 is lightyears ahead of it in every way.
Same is valid for any Toyota Corolla or Camry - why would I pay premium for a BMW and drive a Toyota???
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      10-10-2018, 01:30 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
All the talk about the e46 driving dynamics. You think you want it, but you dont.

Proof? GM literally reverse engineered it with the Cadillac ATS line and it's a massive failure.

Meanwhile the Current 3 series outsold it massively.

People want big fat smooth drivers, not dynamic fun ones.

The 3 G20 is bigger than a 5 series used to be. Let that sink in on how fun it will be to drive.

The 2 series 4 door will be a mini, so don't think the spirit of the 3 lives on there.

BMW wants mainstream sales and mainstream sales are driven by cabin space and tech not driving dynamics. All BMWs modern moves are aimed at expanding sales to new drivers. They assume we will be loyal and buy the new cars even if they share little with previous ones.

X1, X2, 1 series, 2 series (coupe exception) are FWD cars to lure in younger poor people. The 5, 6, 7, 8 are Luxury cars not sporty at all. No sporty car weighs 4kg, idc what badge they put on it. You could take an M5 to the track but you'll burn pads every 2 sessions if you actually drove it. It's good only for the stats page in a magazine, which will attract dumb people with money who want to show off. The 8 is being turned into an 'ultra luxury' line for Saudi oil princes.

My 135i is bigger than an e46 M3 yet the website says the 2 series (formerly 1 under old nomenclature) is the successor to the 2002.

I don't blame the M division either. They have to work with what BMW gives them.

BMW became cool because of dynamics but now they want sales growth and that means A Camry.

The M division gets to work with pigfat.

Your future M cars are mostly just milking the brand at this point.

The M3 currently has no connection to Motorsport at all which was the whole point of M cars. The M8 does but like I said earlier, the M8 GT car weighs 2k lbs. your street version will be double that.

The M brand is essentially dead in spirit. The 3 series is massive.

You have to wonder why we even bother at all with BMW? I know why Stacey is leading her 328i grocery getter. Makes perfect sense for her. I know why Chun Li is leasing his M5. Perfect car to show off your wealth.

I also know why I've never seen a modern M5 at a BMW track event.
I had an ATS premium line, it was a fantastic car, handled better than any non-modified BMW I had driven, and possibly even handle better than my current M3. But what killed it for many people including myself, was the horrific transmission, and the ridiculous old fashion dealerships. While the car was great, the overall experience was very generic.

I am certainly looking forward to what Cadillac is bringing forward, in the CT3/4, and maybe even the CT5.
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      10-10-2018, 01:40 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I personally think it also looks far more refined and polished than the F30. The F30, while overall nicely styled, looks like an E90 with some nips/tucks and a new grille. Styling is subjective anyway.
Styling is definitely subjective, because I think the E90 looked liked crap and I loved the F30 the moment I saw it. They are nothing alike. The E92 looked much better then the E90. The G20 looks pretty good too, but have to see it in person to truly know.
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      10-10-2018, 01:44 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhrp View Post
Styling is definitely subjective, because I think the E90 looked liked crap and I loved the F30 the moment I saw it. They are nothing alike. The E92 looked much better then the E90. The G20 looks pretty good too, but have to see it in person to truly know.
They're nothing alike? Seriously?

Look at this rear 3/4 view. The side profile and the rear end are almost identical.





The main difference is the grille and front fascia. Which I admit is enough to make the car look different, but it's really just the front. It's easy to mistake an LCI E90 for an F30 for non-owners.



There is a much bigger difference between the F30 and G30 than there is between the E90 and F30.
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      10-10-2018, 01:50 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbog2008 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupojava View Post
My E90 sounded like it the whole car was exploding driving over the smallest potholes. The LCI F30 is lightyears ahead of it in every way.
Same is valid for any Toyota Corolla or Camry - why would I pay premium for a BMW and drive a Toyota???
Don't forget Honda

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupojava View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjd598 View Post
for a loaded m340i it's more than possible. i thought you meant 330i.

the m340i will not be cheap any way you look at it. there's a lot going on with that car on paper so expect to pay to play
I wouldn't mind that price at all. M3 residuals are also lowered now too, down to something like 56% for 36 month/12,000 miles. So everything is becoming more expensive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesummer View Post
If he got the first thing wrong to the root, how can he possibly fix anything?

"Drive fast and relax and feel not going fast"

Wtf is this? The core of the complaints isn't the car not going fast enough. In fact, it's the completely opposite of that. When I'm going fast, I want to know I'm going fast. If One wanted to feel isolated while cruising at 90mph, that person could easily pick hundreds of other options available.

Someone please fire this guy


Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4life View Post
Lol, no one complained about the availability of a manual transmission.
#savorthemanuals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerIx View Post
"I do not want to hear that shit anymore."
I laughed out loud when I read that interview too

Just goes to show how seriously BMW wants everyone to take the G20.

I think it's a good thing overall that they take the 3 Series commentaries seriously and certainly hope it lives up to these expectations.
It's safe to say, forums and reviews really work. It may take time but it will seep through.
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      10-10-2018, 01:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Incongruent post.

First asking if BMW fans should only cheer whatever BMW does (like "real friends" who only say whatever you do is right, even when you're wrong) and then talk about BMW not appeasing to BMW fans but to the mass market.

Pick your line of argument and come back.
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1. You need to understand the difference between fan and purist before saying my post is incongruent. I'm a fan but not a purist, there's a difference.

2. Those are my thoughts and not arguments to a debate.

3. You can agree or disagree with my view. Either way i'm cool with it.
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      10-10-2018, 01:52 PM   #79
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My guess is that for every 3-er BMW sells to a purist, driving enthusiast, they sell 4 or 5 to people who don't pay attention to all that. How many F30s have been sold vs. how many of those owners are on forums like this?

At the end of the day, BMW is in the business of selling cars, not catering to niche performance enthusiasts. Despite all the moaning about not having a manual option on these forums...it was undoubtedly the right BUSINESS decision for BMW. Not to mention, there aren't any competitors in the segment that offered a manual in their most recent generations, so saying "no manual?? I'm buying an Alfa" is a bit of a non sequitur. (Giulia is auto only). Or to say you're going to Porsche...last I checked, the only 4-door Porsche STARTS at over $70k. Not exactly a direct competitor.

If BMW can regain "king of the mountain" status among its competitors, they will see it as mission accomplished. And that doesn't mean they have to recreate an E46 to do it...in fact, if they did in fact recreate an E46, I'd guess that they WOULDN'T do well in comparos with the latest from Audi, MB, Lexus, etc...except maybe for the minor market segment of purists/enthusiasts.

All that said, I see it is a positive that they have taken feedback into serious consideration in designing the G20. Just deal with the fact that they might not have checked all the boxes of YOUR feedback.
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      10-10-2018, 01:52 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
They're nothing alike? Seriously?

Look at this rear 3/4 view. The side profile and the rear end are almost identical.

There is a much bigger difference between the F30 and G30 than there is between the E90 and F30.
Both being 3 series, there is always going to be *some* similarity, but taken as a whole they project a completely different look (longer, wider body on F30, no snub-nose hood, headlights meeting grill, etc as compared to E90). It is not about focusing on small, specific portions of the car, but at the entire design as a whole. Isn't BMW trying to sell a *whole* car?

Also, isn't that the LCI E90? Much closer in time to the F30. The pre-LCI E90 was particularly horrible.
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      10-10-2018, 01:53 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerIx View Post
"I do not want to hear that shit anymore."


The real badge we need on the new G20. The 330idonotwanttohearthatshitanymore
I'll miss my F36
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      10-10-2018, 01:56 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by E21-myfirstlove View Post
We have to accept that the 'old' 3 series spirit is now the 2 series. Just got an M2C and lemmie tell you, the only thing I have driven that really, really reminds me of my old e46 323ci. Obviously more power better brakes etc, but the soul is spot on. Washed it for the first time yesterday, and this may sound kind of stupid and silly, but it washed just like my old E 46! However, will the 2 be around in a few years...
Nostalgic washing. That's a new one for me. Maybe it's time spent:size of car related. I know my old X5' had considerable square footage to wash

I think a little M2GC next next gen G88 would cleanup!
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      10-10-2018, 01:59 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khailuan View Post
Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans.
When did it become "cool" to hate your favorite car brands' products?
Has this become a basher's forum?
Enough with the lexus rear end comparisons. Most of you wouldn't even buy one for its performance nor its driving dynamics since they're all inferior to BMW.
If you can't stop lamenting how BMW's new models can't compare to its cars (E30, E46 and E90) of the past then maybe you should stay in the past.
Times have changed and cars will too.
Do you think a company would revert back to its previous generation's technology such as isntalling hydraulic steering to replace electronic in new cars? Perhaps this generation's steering is not quite as good (tbd) but at least they're improving it constantly and eventually they'll get there.
You can't stop progres and companies certainly won't go backwards.
Stats have shown that people have grown in height and weight over the years.
It's logical for the 3 series to grow as well to a certain extent but they also have to look at what the competition does. Besides, it needs to make room for the upcoming 4 door 2 series to compete with the A3/S3 and CLA which BMW has missed out on this segment. Lastly, a recurrent complaint of the F30 was poor rear legroom.
So what if it's slightly larger and a tad heavier. It offers so much more in terms of technology, comfort, road composure with advanced differential and dampers. It obliterates the previous generations on performance. Also, its structure rigidy are said to be much improved.
It's baffling to me that people think they're cool by pointing out immaterial and subjective negative areas while they choose not to mention all the other improvements the car has over its previous generations. I sure wouldn't miss the waterpump failure and fuel pump problem in my E90. Yes the steering was more precise but I sure don't miss its stiffness and that unforgiving suspension with the slightest road imperfection. I also don't miss that backseat where no one can fit.
BMW will continue to make luxury cars and aim to reclaim its #1 crown. It will do so by ensuring its new 3 series will appeal to the massive market of luxury segment buyers and not by yielding to the BMW purists or enthusiasts. BMW has already thrown them a bone with the M2. So shut up, get an M2 or stay in the past.
This has to be bait. People here we're fans of good cars, which BMW used to make. Now they make big fat Camry competitors. They deserve the criticism. The DNA of the car has changed even if the badge is the same.
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      10-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #84
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"Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans."

My point was not to bash BMW or the F30 but Klaus's statement.
"First thing and this is for me the most important thing; you can drive fast and completely relaxed. You don't feel how fast you are"
To me that's not how BMW is going to silence the critics.

My F30 does a lot of things. Good gas mileage, nice exterior/interior, nice engine/transmission, accurate steering, reliable and quick/fast.

But the feeling—> (steering and chassis)has to be address in the G20 in ordered to silence the critics.
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      10-10-2018, 02:02 PM   #85
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Just because it's supposed to be great might not justify the leasing figures. I for one would not pay $800 a month for a 3 series
who said it will be $800/month?
The shitty rates right now across the board at BMW say so
Sorry but you can't possibly forecast lease numbers like that. BMW will definitely provide incentives toward leasing and bring the monthly down to sub ~$6xx for 340. BMW might not be building the ultimate driving machines anymore but the sales/finance people are still professionals at what they do.
Sub $6xx for an M340i? I seriously don't that. Only if you put a crap tonn of money down.

My M235i 4 years ago at $51k MSRP with ED pricing, 0 down, when residuals was still high, and 7 MSDs was $555. This car will cost much more than that with options. And with higher residuals, and without the MSD, I can't see a well equipped M340i being less than $700 a month. But I hope I am wrong.
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      10-10-2018, 02:04 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by E21-myfirstlove View Post
We have to accept that the 'old' 3 series spirit is now the 2 series. Just got an M2C and lemmie tell you, the only thing I have driven that really, really reminds me of my old e46 323ci. Obviously more power better brakes etc, but the soul is spot on. Washed it for the first time yesterday, and this may sound kind of stupid and silly, but it washed just like my old E 46! However, will the 2 be around in a few years...
This is what I've been sayin.. the 2 is the 3 of yore
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khailuan110.50
      10-10-2018, 02:06 PM   #87
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"Quick thoughts:

Sometimes I wonder if the G20 whiners are real BMW fans."

My point was not to bash BMW or the F30 but Klaus's statement.
"First thing and this is for me the most important thing; you can drive fast and completely relaxed. You don't feel how fast you are"
To me that's not how BMW is going to silence the critics.

My F30 does a lot of things. Good gas mileage, nice exterior/interior, nice engine/transmission, accurate steering, reliable and quick/fast.

But the feeling—> (steering and chassis)has to be address in the G20 in ordered to silence the critics.
the chassis is stiffer ok
but how exactly do you address steering feel with electric steering?
you can fake heavier and lighter electric steering but at the end of the day.. its electric
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Germanauto9665.50
      10-10-2018, 02:09 PM   #88
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That's just so fucking funny to me 🤣
That just shows Klaus is a bit out of touch
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