[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

"You don't feel how fast you are."
He got it wrong, the only reason you buy a 3 series vs a Lexus:
you WANT TO FEEL HOW FAST You ARE!

I think he's confused - he must think he's over at Mercedes.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by phoenixbmwlife

Have you decided the M340i to be your next car? I'm still waiting to see what the M8GC is going to be like for me but my wife needs a car next year, so it's either the new 3 or the X5. I feel we can save a lot of money just getting like an Msport 330i and load it up with nice options.

The 330i seems to be a real screamer. 295lbs torque - that's almost N55 category. And those beautiful exhaust tips - unlike the Lexusy tips on the 340i.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by cupojava

My F30 pre-LCI 335i was pretty boring. However I feel like my F30 340i has more soul than my E92 335is, which was lightyears ahead of my pre-LCI E90 328i. When the E9x first got released it runflats for the 3 series were a new thing and the ride was horrible, along with the pothole explosion sounds. It was a pretty well known thing back then.

The B58 engine is sublime. The 8AT is better than the DCT.

The more I look at the Paris auto show photos/videos, the more F30 just looks outdated compared to G20 now.

To each his own I guess. The 335is was a rare special car, and I hold it right up there.

To me, the telepathic steering of pre EPS BMWs was their soul - when you could feel the road almost like you were on a motorbike. I can't describe it any other way.

I had an '06 330i with the new run flats - I switched over to non-RFT and immediately regretted it (probably was in the minority) - but the stiff sidewalls made up for some softness compared to E46 and I missed that. Switched back to RFT as soon as I could and never looked back - for my 08 N54 as well as my '11 N55. Yes you had to be a bit careful around potholes but that was a trade I was happy to make.

No doubt the engines/transmissions etc will get better with each gen, but the most disappointing part of the F30 (incl the 340i) was the poorly done EPS - even after the LCI changes and updates.

Hopefully with the G20 they have fixed it - a la Porsche.

[dmboone25]

Maybe you should make the shit better then.

And work on the driving dynamics, rather than making it bigger. And bigger. And bigger.

Glad to know you want it to “feel” like a 5er - that’s the ticket.

[2015M4inCT]

Originally Posted by cupojava

My F30 pre-LCI 335i was pretty boring. However I feel like my F30 340i has more soul than my E92 335is, which was lightyears ahead of my pre-LCI E90 328i. When the E9x first got released it runflats for the 3 series were a new thing and the ride was horrible, along with the pothole explosion sounds. It was a pretty well known thing back then.

The B58 engine is sublime. The 8AT is better than the DCT.

The more I look at the Paris auto show photos/videos, the more F30 just looks outdated compared to G20 now.

What??? I had a 2013 335is for 3 years before my 2016 340i and find the opposite with regards to subjective soul. The 335is just exuded visceral pleasure whereas the 340i is digital and clinical in its driving.

Yes, the B58 is an amazing engine. It has torque down low and doesn't run out of air like the N54 did at 5300rpms but that N54 wailed an exotic tune that I still lust for. I had people constantly stop me and comment how good it sounded. I even have the MPE on my 340i but it simply doesn't sound better... Just deeper without the wailing.

Yes, the suspension is much more buttoned down on the 340. The e92s were too softly damped and sprung, especially in the rear. But the steering cannot compare. The ever slight vibration in the steering wheel at idle was even satisfying. The car was just more mechanical and special feeling if even not ideal from a suspension standpoint.

I may actually look for a low mile 335is when my lease is up in a few months. What a special car.

[khailuan]

Originally Posted by Just a 3

Apologies if I came across as insulting - that was not my intent.

It's all good man. We just showed that we care about BMW cars in our own way.

[ihbase]

I just drove an f30 generation car tonight after an e90 this afternoon and an e46 yesterday. This, after a week of driving various other cars from other makes.

Nothing makes one appreciate an f30 more than driving something from another manufacturer. Other than the steering, there is a lot that is right about the f30. There are so many things that are terrific about that car that one can not reduce to an option sheet- it just handles time and distance gracefully and competently. Crap weather, poor visuality, long distances- there is so much that car handles better than others for small feats of engineering we will never see.

But here is the deal - nothing makes you dislike the f30 more than driving an older BMW. It is as if with each generation they stripped away more of the unique aspects of a BMW (its "character" to be cliche about it) in order to commonize the car and make it "normal" for the suburban mall parking lot. The switch gear moved to the doors, the cup holders got bigger, the steering got lighter. It just feels less unique and less special with each generation. I love the 335d, but the window switchgear should be in the center. I love the f30, but the steering feedback is rubbish. Each successive generation feels less special and more like anything else- and that direction seems intentional, born from the desire to capture the largest market possible.

Now, the new generation with a massive and partially fake grill is defended by this guy saying "You don’t feel how fast you are” kinda suggests that BMW management really does not get it.

Sure, globally, they are moving units. But once they lose enthusiasts, then the brand will lose value because it won't mean the same thing anymore. With each shift to the center of the market, there is less with which to differentiate the brand.

And yes, I realize the M2 is terrific. But one stand-out in a sea of common mush does not support an enthusiast's brand. The new gen just looks busy, bloated, and confused. Statements from upper BMW management like those in the cited article suggest that this is the product of a company suffering from the same symptoms.

It was avoidable- the new generation could have brought a simple, elegant, clean design void of the common emphasis on massive grills and busy character lines.

But it fits the script. As unit sales drop, BMW can claim that consumers "just don't want cars anymore" and focus on increasing the rim size and the output from transverse four in whatever crossover comes next.

Who knew? All it took was the fat lip and confused character lines of the G20 to make the f30 loved.

-Michael

[scrammer]

Originally Posted by 340i6MT

What??? I had a 2013 335is for 3 years before my 2016 340i and find the opposite with regards to subjective soul. The 335is just exuded visceral pleasure whereas the 340i is digital and clinical in its driving.

Yes, the B58 is an amazing engine. It has torque down low and doesn't run out of air like the N54 did at 5300rpms but that N54 wailed an exotic tune that I still lust for. I had people constantly stop me and comment how good it sounded. I even have the MPE on my 340i but it simply doesn't sound better... Just deeper without the wailing.

Yes, the suspension is much more buttoned down on the 340. The e92s were too softly damped and sprung, especially in the rear. But the steering cannot compare. The ever slight vibration in the steering wheel at idle was even satisfying. The car was just more mechanical and special feeling if even not ideal from a suspension standpoint.

I may actually look for a low mile 335is when my lease is up in a few months. What a special car.

I agree with everything you said about the 335is... That's why if you want to get back into an E9x platform look for a nice M3.
I had the 335is as an in-between car for about 6 months and the first time I took it on my regular loop I almost put it in the fence (after my E90 M3) because although it was fast, and sounded great, it didn't handle very well...
My current e92 m3 is basically two generations old now, but I wouldn't trade it for anything ... including this M2 that I spent some time in as part of the ///M Tour at my dealer

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

The real problem is the lack of a manual transmission. This is something that kept the F30 alive in enthusiast circles, IMO. If the G20 drops it, then it had better step up its game in other areas. I know for me, if the F30 didn't have a manual, I definitely would have gone a different direction. The F30 just doesn't really offer many compelling features to stand out.

Yes. Despite the inevitable, I'm surprised the G20 has no MT option. This is a focal point for the BMW's core supporters. In 1999, I purchased my first BMW, a E39 528i, because it was the only car in its class that was offered with a MT...

[AlpineWhite_SJ]

Sorry Klaus, but you’re going to hear sh*t because it’s fugly and you’ve lost your way. I get you’re frustrated trying to reconcile the goal of making a best selling car with the fact that what makes the heritage of the 3 series great isn’t what appeals to the status-seeking masses.



You took too many boring styling cues from your competition. While I might have had a gripe or two about the details on each new generation (never been a fan of the rake angle of the front of the e90 for example), overall they had coherence and incorporated modern styling cues while maintaining a recognizable link to past generations. This one is a hodgepodge of Lexus, Audi and BMW-gone-mutant (WTF is with the roundels? It’s not an EV for chrissakes). It’s 360 degrees of uninteresting.

No one expects your bread and butter model to be up there with the M, but now that you’re slapping the M badge on everything, and delivering a M model dragged down with the crap that the base model brings with it, you should probably be prepared to deal with some criticism. Because - we don’t have to buy but you’ve gotta sell to keep that job of yours. So deal with the crap, or better yet, deliver a better product.

PS - most of us bought the cars despite the fact corporate and your dealers forgot about customer service a long time ago. THAT you could copy from your competitors and it’d be welcomed.

[///M-er-gized]

I think people should wait until they see one in person and actually drive the car before drawing any conclusions.

Also, if having manual transmission is your most important criteria, then you'll likely be stuck driving older models, because it's not just BMW moving in that direction, it's the entire industry.

You can't get a manual transmission in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or Porsche 911 Turbo anymore. It's been that way for years now. Mercedes and Audi aren't going to be options for you either.

That ship had sailed. It's either older cars or maybe a Corvette, and that's that.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by 340i6MT

What??? I had a 2013 335is for 3 years before my 2016 340i and find the opposite with regards to subjective soul. The 335is just exuded visceral pleasure whereas the 340i is digital and clinical in its driving.

Yes, the B58 is an amazing engine. It has torque down low and doesn't run out of air like the N54 did at 5300rpms but that N54 wailed an exotic tune that I still lust for. I had people constantly stop me and comment how good it sounded. I even have the MPE on my 340i but it simply doesn't sound better... Just deeper without the wailing.

Yes, the suspension is much more buttoned down on the 340. The e92s were too softly damped and sprung, especially in the rear. But the steering cannot compare. The ever slight vibration in the steering wheel at idle was even satisfying. The car was just more mechanical and special feeling if even not ideal from a suspension standpoint.

I may actually look for a low mile 335is when my lease is up in a few months. What a special car.

The 335is was a great car. I miss mine. The wife and I have had many itineration's of the 3 series (non M) and that was by far the best. All it needed was a tune. Still love that exhaust sound. That thing sounded better then my current M4. Wife has a 340 right now and we can't wait to dump it when the lease is up.

We are going to look at other makes which would have been unheard of a few years back.

BMW is doing something wrong if I'm saying that shit!

[sq86]

Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ

PS - most of us bought the cars despite the fact corporate and your dealers forgot about customer service a long time ago. THAT you could copy from your competitors and it'd be welcomed.

I cannot agree more with this. The dealers seem to get worse all the time.

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by ///M-er-gized

I think people should wait until they see one in person and actually drive the car before drawing any conclusions.

Also, if having manual transmission is your most important criteria, then you'll likely be stuck driving older models, because it's not just BMW moving in that direction, it's the entire industry.

You can't get a manual transmission in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or Porsche 911 Turbo anymore. It's been that way for years now. Mercedes and Audi aren't going to be options for you either.

That ship had sailed. It's either older cars or maybe a Corvette, and that's that.

There are still plenty of 2 door options. There are the excellent cars like the GT350 and the ZL1. Those have excellent Tremec boxes by the way. Genesis is making a manual in its very good G70 sedan. All Corvettes. Many 911s. All 718s. And supposedly Aston is building the Vantage with a manual. And the ATS-V while you can still buy it. Based on take rates, it's likely the 2 series will also continue to offer a manual.

If you go downmarket a bit, you still have excellent cars like the Civic (including the Type R of course), the GTI, Accord, GT86/FRS/BRZ, Miata, Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Fiat 500, all kinds of Subarus, and Mini Coopers.

If you want a sports car or economy car, you'll be fine. The only people that are stuck are the ones who want sport sedans. It's very unfortunate because a lot of people in their 30s-40s want a fun car to drive but due to family cannot buy a 2 door car. These people generally have a lot of disposable income, too.

[nozydog]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

The F30 was - relative to the market - the worst driving 3 series probably since the first gen. The F30 is what ended BMW's dominance in this segment....

The G20 is adding an eDiff, a much stiffer chassis, will be noticeably lighter, supposedly has well tuned passive dampers, higher rate springs, and a steering rack with more road feel.....

I personally think it also looks far more refined and polished than the F30. The F30, while overall nicely styled, looks like an E90 with some nips/tucks and a new grille....

Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be the absolute best in any one thing. If it can be right behind Alfa in driving, and be behind Mercedes in interior quality, it can still be an overall great sport sedan. The Alfa has a LOT of faults that many people wouldn't be able to live with. The Mercedes is solid but isn't necessarily exciting....

The real problem is the lack of a manual transmission. This is something that kept the F30 alive in enthusiast circles, IMO. If the G20 drops it, then it had better step up its game in other areas. I know for me, if the F30 didn't have a manual, I definitely would have gone a different direction. The F30 just doesn't really offer many compelling features to stand out.

I think the final iteration of the F30 isn't bad, my 2017 340i is actually quite a fun car to drive but I think it had quite a few tweaks in it's lifespan to get it that way! And you're right about the looks, while it IS a nice looking car (still, even after 7 years) this G20 has to my eyes the appearance of a much more solid, higher quality car. I do however think the size increase of 3 inches is just too much, even if it actually does turn out to be lighter!

But yes a manual transmission... we'll get it in the UK on a 320i apparently, but I've moved on to more power now so anything below 200hp is not really an option for me

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV

I feel like their historical bread & butter (320d, 325i) have been dumbed down in terms of quality & emotion. You have to look for an M340i, at-least, to get a little of that emotion back.

The quality is the same across all models, its the specification that differs. And the emotion is a purely human projection, based on sensory input and price discovery.

[///M-er-gized]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

There are still plenty of 2 door options. There are the excellent cars like the GT350 and the ZL1. Those have excellent Tremec boxes by the way. Genesis is making a manual in its very good G70 sedan. All Corvettes. Many 911s. All 718s. And supposedly Aston is building the Vantage with a manual. And the ATS-V while you can still buy it. Based on take rates, it's likely the 2 series will also continue to offer a manual.

If you go downmarket a bit, you still have excellent cars like the Civic (including the Type R of course), the GTI, Accord, GT86/FRS/BRZ, Miata, Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Fiat 500, all kinds of Subarus, and Mini Coopers.

If you want a sports car or economy car, you'll be fine. The only people that are stuck are the ones who want sport sedans. It's very unfortunate because a lot of people in their 30s-40s want a fun car to drive but due to family cannot buy a 2 door car. These people generally have a lot of disposable income, too.

Those are options for you.

Not me, but you're right.

If you go "down market," there are plenty of options.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by georgere

I don't know if people will break prestige stigma and buy more Cadillacs, but that Giulia- as soon as it proves reliable and sells some numbers, 3er will be history.

This time, they said, this time it will be different, they said.

This time it really will be reliable, they, said, and the 3er will lose its dominance.

Well maybe it won't be this time, as Alfa Romeo brought forward a mid-life update partly to address electrical reliability problems (apparently). So you never know.

In the USA, there is no continuous memory of Alfas blowing up, switching off and breaking down except in a "my dad told me, back in the 70s" sort of way. You can look back fondly but you haven't had to endure the actuality of cars produced continuously in the meantime and never sold in NA, like the 166 (retained value after 3 years: 15%), 156, 159 and Brera, all great to drive but below par on most other ownership fronts, and chipping steadily away at the brand's mountain of goodwill. There really isn't a lot of that left, and for a great many people, Alfa will have to go through at least one full model cycle before a turnaround.

I really did want to like the Guilia, and cross-shopped a Jag, Guilia and a 3. Don't know I bothered; I would never have bought the Guilia no matter how good it drove. I don't have multiple cars like most Americans on here, and need it to do everything, all the time .

Maybe Alfa will kill BMW in the next generation, and Alfa will go from producing 70,000 cars in 2015 as they did, to 1,500,000 in 2025...

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

The quality is the same across all models, its the specification that differs. And the emotion is a purely human projection, based on sensory input and price discovery.

Totally agree, this has been the BMW way for all generations of cars. Trim and specification completely change how we perceive the cars.

To be specific about the past, we had four E30 3-series at the same time in my company. A 318i, two 320i's and a 323i. Very different cars, the 318i was a basic spec' the 320i's in different spec's, one of them was a better place to be than the other, the 323i leagues ahead, due to spec' and powertrain.

Guys on here talk as if BMW treated the basic F30 models in some 'new' down market way. Nothing new at all in how BMW market their cars. We've seen it all before, for decades.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

I really did want to like the Guilia, and cross-shopped a Jag, Guilia and a 3. Don't know I bothered; I would never have bought the Guilia no matter how good it drove. I don't have multiple cars like most Americans on here, and need it to do everything, all the time ...

Your example is applicable to so many users in our market (UK). Many won't take on the Jag' for similar reasons. A slightly better steering feel, a touch better handling, doesn't sell cars when the vehicle has so much more to fulfil than simply being the best at going around a few bends near the limit.

Most of us buy a car to do everything we need, week in, week out. It is one reason I'm not in an M-car, however brilliant I rate them. They are not suitable to my daily transport needs. Many of us 'compromise' to get the best package which suit our needs. BMW know that, are pretty good at getting those compromises suited to the bigger market.

[///M-er-gized]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

This time, they said, this time it will be different, they said.

This time it really will be reliable, they, said, and the 3er will lose its dominance.

Well maybe it won't be this time, as Alfa Romeo brought forward a mid-life update partly to address electrical reliability problems (apparently). So you never know.

In the USA, there is no continuous memory of Alfas blowing up, switching off and breaking down except in a "my dad told me, back in the 70s" sort of way. You can look back fondly but you haven't had to endure the actuality of cars produced continuously in the meantime and never sold in NA, like the 166 (retained value after 3 years: 15%), 156, 159 and Brera, all great to drive but below par on most other ownership fronts, and chipping steadily away at the brand's mountain of goodwill. There really isn't a lot of that left, and for a great many people, Alfa will have to go through at least one full model cycle before a turnaround.

I really did want to like the Guilia, and cross-shopped a Jag, Guilia and a 3. Don't know I bothered; I would never have bought the Guilia no matter how good it drove. I don't have multiple cars like most Americans on here, and need it to do everything, all the time .

Maybe Alfa will kill BMW in the next generation, and Alfa will go from producing 70,000 cars in 2015 as they did, to 1,500,000 in 2025...

Yeah, Alfa Romeo has a bad reputation because in the 60s and 70s, they were awful in terms of reliability.

I'm half Italian, so I could get away with saying this, but Italian cars are difficult to live with.

I wouldn't get one.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Your example is applicable to so many users in our market (UK). Many won't take on the Jag' for similar reasons. A slightly better steering feel, a touch better handling, doesn't sell cars when the vehicle has so much more to fulfil than simply being the best at going around a few bends near the limit.

Most of us buy a car to do everything we need, week in, week out. It is one reason I'm not in an M-car, however brilliant I rate them. They are not suitable to my daily transport needs. Many of us 'compromise' to get the best package which suit our needs. BMW know that, are pretty good at getting those compromises suited to the bigger market.

Many of us 'compromise' to get the best package which suit our needs. BMW know that, are pretty good at getting those compromises suited to the bigger market.

Spot on. The modern BMW brand in a nutshell