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      07-28-2020, 07:13 PM   #243
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ok... not sure how some of you guys arrive at these conclusions... bmw m was formed as an expansion to help bmw's racing program... that program no longer exists... the baseline for these production models was always base BMWs... nothing would change that... unless you are saying bmw M builds 100 off cars for enthusiasts, then maybe you'd be right.
Yes it was, and it was a SUBSIDIARY of BMW at the time. You know, back in the 60's and 70's. Not an in-house brand. Nobody said M would be building their own bespoke vehicles. You just came up with that yourself.
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      07-28-2020, 07:15 PM   #244
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yes... the Giulia and the C63s suffer this same fate... as do plenty of other cars... or maybe bmw engineers suck at putting a proper diff in with decently sized rear tires?
Hence why the next generation AMG will also be *surprise* AWD.
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      07-28-2020, 07:16 PM   #245
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ok... not sure how some of you guys arrive at these conclusions... bmw m was formed as an expansion to help bmw's racing program... that program no longer exists... the baseline for these production models was always base BMWs... nothing would change that... unless you are saying bmw M builds 100 off cars for enthusiasts, then maybe you'd be right.
Yes it was, and it was a SUBSIDIARY of BMW at the time. You know, back in the 60's and 70's. Not an in-house brand. Nobody said M would be building their own bespoke vehicles. You just came up with that yourself.
you mean when an M3 did not even exist?

Prior to so called 1993? How many M's were sold to the public? This is a nonsensical discussion.
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      07-28-2020, 07:17 PM   #246
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yes... the Giulia and the C63s suffer this same fate... as do plenty of other cars... or maybe bmw engineers suck at putting a proper diff in with decently sized rear tires?
Hence why the next generation AMG will also be *surprise* AWD.
yea and as always 100 HP ahead of BMW... i dont see the positive here for Bmw w the loss of lightweight bodies
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      07-28-2020, 07:19 PM   #247
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you mean when an M3 did not even exist?

Prior to so called 1993? How many M's were sold to the public? This is a nonsensical discussion.
M only makes ONE M CAR!?!?! The M1, the e28 M5 AND the e30 M3 were all before M went in house. By the way, the e30 M3 came out in 1986. So the M3 DID exist.
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      07-28-2020, 07:19 PM   #248
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... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.
I see this part differently and it is what is keeping my hopes up. ///M has never produced that many variants of their road cars into factory race cars: the M6GT3, M8GTE, M4GT4, M2csR and the upcoming M4GT3. Even more so, these cars use very similar engines as their road going counterparts. It is what gives me hope that there is still some Motorsport DNA in ///M, and not only the most powerful letter in Marketing.
I hope you're correct however the loss of BMW product differentiation vs the competition is clear as day at this point...
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      07-28-2020, 07:21 PM   #249
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you mean when an M3 did not even exist?

Prior to so called 1993? How many M's were sold to the public? This is a nonsensical discussion.
M only makes ONE M CAR!?!?! The M1, the e28 M5 AND the e30 M3 were all before M went in house.
sure... so the rarest and lowest production M cars before M was even remotely a household name
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      07-28-2020, 07:24 PM   #250
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sure... so the rarest and lowest production M cars before M was even remotely a household name
You said it didn't exist and that was false, so I corrected you. Just admit you were wrong.

There were numerous other models that also were crafted by the M Division before the went in house, but I won't entertain this discussion anymore. It's worthless.
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      07-28-2020, 07:27 PM   #251
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At which part am I supposed to be impressed?

The gloves or leaving everything full auto and driving half throttle?
It's like Shmee driving "the motor hasn't been fully run in yet, so I'm not really pushing it over 4K RPM, but you can tell it just wants to really open up .. someday maybe it will be driven properly." Another missed opportunity by the Shmee....
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      07-28-2020, 07:28 PM   #252
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sure... so the rarest and lowest production M cars before M was even remotely a household name
You said it didn't exist and that was false, so I corrected you. Just admit you were wrong.

There were numerous other models that also were crafted by the M Division, but I won't entertain this discussion anymore. It's worthless.
M1 is irrelevant because only 450 or so were made... to this day its the rarest of the rare. The E28 m5 would have never made the M name a household or enthusiast name... the E30 I will agree yes, but again more generations were made under the M name as a brand... so again the brand was NEVER built as a standalone for the mainstream... NO ONE would think of the name today if thats how it remained.
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      07-28-2020, 07:34 PM   #253
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M1 is irrelevant because only 450 or so were made... to this day its the rarest of the rare. The E28 m5 would have never made the M name a household or enthusiast name... the E30 I will agree yes, but again more generations were made under the M name as a brand... so again the brand was NEVER built as a standalone for the mainstream... NO ONE would think of the name today if thats how it remained.
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but it is NOT a fact. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Instead, I urge you to go back and and read up on M's history. That'll give you all the answers you need.

I'll help:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/f...icture-special

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...language=en_US
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      07-28-2020, 09:11 PM   #254
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M GmbH is manufacturer not a Tuner...

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      07-28-2020, 09:11 PM   #255
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this needs clarification and quick... because it doesnt read that way
It does read exactly that way to me.

From the press drives thread:

“Official Power Levels:

Standard G80 M3 / G82 M4 -- 480 hp, 6 Speed Manual (Standard), RWD.
Competition G80 M3 / G82 M4 -- 510 hp, 8 Speed Auto (Standard), RWD (Standard), AWD (Optional - arrives at later date)”

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1735162
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      07-28-2020, 09:33 PM   #256
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this needs clarification and quick... because it doesnt read that way
It does read exactly that way to me.

From the press drives thread:

"Official Power Levels:

Standard G80 M3 / G82 M4 -- 480 hp, 6 Speed Manual (Standard), RWD.
Competition G80 M3 / G82 M4 -- 510 hp, 8 Speed Auto (Standard), RWD (Standard), AWD (Optional - arrives at later date)"

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1735162
So why would there not be a manual competition? Odd
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      07-28-2020, 09:36 PM   #257
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So why would there not be a manual competition? Odd
Not odd at all. Manual transmission probably can't take the torque the car is going to be putting out and investing in beefing it up isn't worth it for the small group of people that'll buy the 6 MT. That's just a guess though.

It could also be the same reason Porsche didn't offer the 991.1 GT3 as a manual at first before owners started complaining. Going fast(and taking full advantage of what the car has to offer) and shifting your own gears don't mix with each other. If BMW really wants the Comp to be all about lap times, an Auto is the way to go.
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      07-28-2020, 10:05 PM   #258
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So why would there not be a manual competition? Odd
More odd (but cool) is no AT option for the standard M3/M4. Last time that happened was the E46. So much for going soft and luxurious huh..

It’s a much bolder move than no MT for the competition model. It risk alienating a fair share of non MT M3 drivers when they need to reach for another $6-7k or so for the competition model. The number of MT drivers that risk leaving due to no MT in the comp. is likely a lot less. At this stage MT drivers are happy for scraps as long as they can still have it at all

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      07-29-2020, 01:56 AM   #259
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Quote:
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M use to be a sub brand before 1993 when BMW brought it in house. Same goes for AMG.
Point of clarification here is that the original entity 'BMW Motorsport GmbH' founded in 1972 was in fact an independent subsidiary of BMW AG created to facilitate BMW's overall corporate motorsport strategy. It was always in-house but was not specifically geared towards a product vehicle distribution strategy until 1993.

Besides selling street versions of racing cars to meet homologation requirements (i.e., M1, E30 M3), BMW Motorsport GmbH's offering of niche performance upgrades (M Technic), upgraded series models (i.e., M535i) and limited niche M models with full Motorsport drivetrains (i.e., E28 M5) were just some of the ways to bring in revenue to fund their competition programs while also boosting BMW's overall image as it began to grow clout globally.

That is, until 1993, a less well-known event occurred where BMW Motorsport GmbH was restructured and renamed BMW M GmbH (which is the same entity that M is today).
This isn't something that was done simply to streamline.
It was BMW's own internal recognition that the M-cars were becoming legendary products and a broadening new vehicular segment in their own right, and that BMW overall stood to gain by focusing on the actual M car products.
Only by splitting off its competition racing arm into a separate program from what was now simply an in-house high-performance specialty BMW manufacturer, would the dual objectives of remaining competitive in both competition racing & high-performance vehicles be accomplished.
A separate entity called BMW Motorsport Ltd. was spun-off and from then on you have a CEO of BMW M and a Director of BMW Motorsport, which are separate...an arrangement that remains to this day.
For example, in 2020, Markus Flasch is BMW M CEO and Jens Marquardt is BMW Motorsport director. Markus Flasch is not involved in BMW in motorsports and Jens Marquardt is not involved with BMW M cars, not directly at least.

Throughout the mid-late 1990s and 2000s, much of the personnel, expertise, experience, and synergies were shared across the two (now separate) divisions...yet they also often shared the same facilities and employees/ex-employees.
In particular, it's well-known that the GT racing programs and the Formula 1 programs had direct technology & process transfers to and from BMW M Cars (the development of M models from the E39 all the way to the E9x M3 attest to that all the way to the race cars that used their tech/components...the transfer was a two-way street.)

I will say that things seemed to have pivoted in a different direction since then. You have more streamlining the BMW M GmbH products within the overall BMW range and with the departure and retirement of the old guard such as Biermann and the arrival of individuals such as Van Meel (ex-Audi quattro specialist), the writing was on the wall since it was clear that what BMW's board wanted for the future of M was a different type of product (i.e., AWD M5, AWD M3, modular platforms, etc.).

At its core, M will always stand for Motorsport as that is the origin story, but it's now arguably become a tiered system of trim levels rather than niche BMWs that have been injected with motorsport DNA.
Albert Biermann has been very vocal in his press interviews (written & recorded) about the changing culture at M during the days leading to his departure. There was increasing pressure to be more cost-effective and those at M GmbH were seen by corporate as nothing more than petrol-junkies & trouble-makers that always spent way too much funding fun projects & wasting company profits/money.

Still, despite the sad reality that the coveted M is no longer as uniquely niche, special, or connected to motorsport as before, in almost all categories, I would still take the equivalent M Car over its AMG, quattro (RS), F, or V equivalent.
I, for one, applaud BMW M for continuing to offer the manual transmission, even as its adoption rate is fading into single digits.
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      07-29-2020, 06:46 AM   #260
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For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?
As officially stated by BMW in June: All M3/4 Competition models will be AUTO - 510HP. They will be available with either RWD or AWD and have the same options and amenities. RWD production begins in November, and AWD production begins sometime in 2021.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1735162
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      07-29-2020, 07:23 AM   #261
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Because getting down 500+ horsepower and 400+ ft lbs of torque to the ground is impossible. The F8x was criticized for just that. Lack of traction.
Impossible????

The F1X M5/6 had up to 600hp and were RWD...

A 510hp RWD M3/4 will still be offered...

AWD on the G8X is just offered as an option to please a larger market segment.
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      07-29-2020, 08:19 AM   #262
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At its core, M will always stand for Motorsport as that is the origin story, but it's now arguably become a tiered system of trim levels rather than niche BMWs that have been injected with motorsport DNA.
Albert Biermann has been very vocal in his press interviews (written & recorded) about the changing culture at M during the days leading to his departure. There was increasing pressure to be more cost-effective and those at M GmbH were seen by corporate as nothing more than petrol-junkies & trouble-makers that always spent way too much funding fun projects & wasting company profits/money.

Still, despite the sad reality that the coveted M is no longer as uniquely niche, special, or connected to motorsport as before, in almost all categories, I would still take the equivalent M Car over its AMG, quattro (RS), F, or V equivalent.
I, for one, applaud BMW M for continuing to offer the manual transmission, even as its adoption rate is fading into single digits.
Agreed. I really hope there's still some space left for the trouble makers with GTS/CSL models.

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Impossible????

The F1X M5/6 had up to 600hp and were RWD...

A 510hp RWD M3/4 will still be offered...

AWD on the G8X is just offered as an option to please a larger market segment.
Haven't spent more than 5 mins looking at the X3/X4 M, so I plead ignorance on S58 characteristics.

Much improved linearity vs S55? Have they shifted the power band up in the rev range and made it more progressive?

Pretty surprised by the rwd comp version. Refined engine characteristics, substantial tc advancements, and maybe the "achievement" of M5-like weight allow for 500+ bhp and rwd. There must be a set of variables to make it far more accessible and safe than what I've got...
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      07-29-2020, 10:19 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Law View Post
Still, despite the sad reality that the coveted M is no longer as uniquely niche, special, or connected to motorsport as before, in almost all categories, I would still take the equivalent M Car over its AMG, quattro (RS), F, or V equivalent.

I, for one, applaud BMW M for continuing to offer the manual transmission, even as its adoption rate is fading into single digits.
One reason why MT is in single digit sales is that regional BMW HQs refuse to certify 6MT. Japan is probably the only country that still gets F8x 6MTs in Asia.

That is why I think it was even more important to have DCT in these cars, because it is a statement to the whole world that their motorsport inspired driving experience is what differentiates the brand from the rest.
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      07-29-2020, 10:17 PM   #264
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Alot of hate for this engineer, who clearly is not practiced on camera, just trying to give fans another tidbit, another look at the car in motion, before the reveal....
Agreed

Not an easy task regardless
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