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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) DCT or Traditional AT?

View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 142 59.41%
I prefer a traditional AT. 19 7.95%
Either is fine with me. 27 11.30%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 51 21.34%
Voters: 239. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-01-2019, 10:24 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Cost cutting.

The entire line will have the same automatic gearbox eventually.

Except perhaps if the develop a halo car - out the reach of almost all of us.

As far as stupid goes - have you seen the new grill designs? BMW is capable of being very stupid. If they put a slush box in the M3 it's game over for me and many others.
Yup, I don't get why so many people can't get this through their heads.

When BMW sees that 99.95% of the time there would be no difference between the expensive, heavy and complex gearbox versus the cheaper, lighter and simpler one, why the hell would they not go with a normal auto? Most people won't notice or give a shit. And before anyone says it Bimmerpost does not represent most people.

Merc deciding to never go down the DCT route with their AMG models (other than the AMG GT) was smart.
A45 has a DCT
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      12-01-2019, 11:05 AM   #222
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The ZF8 that was in my wifeís M235i was a flawless transmission. My brotherís F80 had the DCT (my F80 is 6MT) and I actually preferred the feel and consistency of the ZF8. The DCT was actually pretty inconsistent in terms of smoothness and response time... sometimes it was super fast and smooth, but then the next moment it would be slow or jerky...
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      12-01-2019, 12:35 PM   #223
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The DCT was actually pretty inconsistent in terms of smoothness and response time... sometimes it was super fast and smooth, but then the next moment it would be slow or jerky...
From which I can guess that you're talking about the low end of the rev range?

I agree totally that the M-DCT is not very happy rev-matching downshifts at the low end of the rev range in from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st. The true worst case behavior is when you are basically letting the car downshift on its own to avoid stalling (so never do this). This is a transmission that just doesn't enjoy driving to the shops.

Since you drive a 6MT yourself, I'm assuming that you actually drove the DCT using the paddle shifts and not in 'full auto'. I'm also assuming that you got the chance to drive the car like it was meant to be used (i.e. upshifting above 6000rpm and downshifting early under braking to keep the engine in the power band). In these situations, especially when in 'S3' mode, the shifting responsiveness is superlative in my experience (and sounds amazing to boot). No ZF8 car I've driven has ever come close to that feeling. I'll accept a bit of clunkiness around town (from both the transmission & diff) for the joy I get on the twisty coast roads of Hwy 1 and at ThunderHill and Laguna Seca.

Last edited by pbar; 12-01-2019 at 01:29 PM..
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      12-01-2019, 12:56 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
The cold fact is that it just doesn't.

BMW had perfect transmission called M-DCT and if they are phasing out on the purest M variants just for cost cutting, there is no future for this company. At least not for M division.
People keep saying it's because of cost cutting, is it really? Source?

It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick.

And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost.
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      12-01-2019, 03:31 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
The cold fact is that it just doesn't.

BMW had perfect transmission called M-DCT and if they are phasing out on the purest M variants just for cost cutting, there is no future for this company. At least not for M division.
People keep saying it's because of cost cutting, is it really? Source?

It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick.

And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost.
Buying power, production line costs writing software for one hardware platform. Basic business principles.
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      12-01-2019, 05:18 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Buying power, production line costs writing software for one hardware platform. Basic business principles.
BMW asked you to contribute though, If I recall right I paid around $3k when I ticked that box on my E90 M3.
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      12-01-2019, 05:27 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Buying power, production line costs writing software for one hardware platform. Basic business principles.
BMW asked you to contribute though, If I recall right I paid around $3k when I ticked that box on my E90 M3.
The market is much more competitive now - with very good offerings from multiple manufacturers.
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      12-01-2019, 11:27 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick.

And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost.
Do you drive your F90 in auto mode all the time? Then you wouldn't feel much difference between the two.
If ZF8 were indeed superior, supercar brands like Ferrari would have been the first to adopt it. ZF8 can't rev high and is sluggish near redline. They are just not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
People keep saying it's because of cost cutting, is it really? Source?
The unit price of ZF8 is said to be one-third of a comparable Getrag(now Magna) DCT. What's interesting is Schmiedmann(they order directly from BMW) charges 14,500 euro for F10 M5 DCT but charges 10,000 euro for F90 M5 ZF8.

It's no wonder the chief bean counter (Quintus) of M division actively pushed for DCT to be gone since F10 M5; Albert Biermann, head of the M at the time, fought to retain the DCT which is why F10 didn't go automatic.
He told in an interview with C&D that one of the main reasons he left the company was that the board was no longer interested in building enthusiast cars, specifically mentioning their decision to cancel DCT for F90.
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      12-01-2019, 11:51 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Imola3 View Post
Yup, I don't get why so many people can't get this through their heads.

When BMW sees that 99.95% of the time there would be no difference between the expensive, heavy and complex gearbox versus the cheaper, lighter and simpler one, why the hell would they not go with a normal auto? Most people won't notice or give a shit. And before anyone says it Bimmerpost does not represent most people.

Merc deciding to never go down the DCT route with their AMG models (other than the AMG GT) was smart.
So you would put a generic, slower transmission that everybody uses on your halo car to make the car exactly the same as the others?

Let's also get the facts correct. AMG has developed 8-speed DCT exclusively for their A35/A45 variants and is willing to expand the DCT lineups.

As much as I'm a diehard BMW fan and a driver for over a decade I am less than pleased with their latest decisions regarding vehicle dynamics and design. I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge.
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      12-02-2019, 10:30 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
As much as I'm a diehard BMW fan and a driver for over a decade I am less than pleased with their latest decisions regarding vehicle dynamics and design. I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge.
I think the best solution to this problem is for BMW to make a more expensive variant of the 3 series than the M. With a bigly, shinier, blingier badge. Probably made of 24ct rose gold.

That way the people who just want the 'fullest loadedest' version of the car can donate their cash to BMW and subsidize those of us who actually want a drivers car.

To be honest, I'm sort of astonished at the people, even on this forum, who buy an M-variant car and then spend time complaining it isn't soft/luxurious enough for them and shilling for BMW as they gradually try to make the car more mass-market. Or who personally choose a 335 auto and then post saying that there's no reason for the M3 to have anything better.

M cars were once a pretty unique proposition (and the M-DCT was clear evidence of that) - in 2 years time there will be no difference from an Audi or Merc.
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      12-02-2019, 10:59 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I think the best solution to this problem is for BMW to make a more expensive variant of the 3 series than the M. With a bigly, shinier, blingier badge. Probably made of 24ct rose gold.

That way the people who just want the 'fullest loadedest' version of the car can donate their cash to BMW and subsidize those of us who actually want a drivers car.

To be honest, I'm sort of astonished at the people, even on this forum, who buy an M-variant car and then spend time complaining it isn't soft/luxurious enough for them and shilling for BMW as they gradually try to make the car more mass-market. Or who personally choose a 335 auto and then post saying that there's no reason for the M3 to have anything better.

M cars were once a pretty unique proposition (and the M-DCT was clear evidence of that) - in 2 years time there will be no difference from an Audi or Merc.
If the DCT is removed from the M2 as well I suspect it’s neither cost cutting or spa moms that drive the change but the same reason as for all other drivers car aspect removed so far ( NA high revving engines, HPS ) I.e. fuel efficiency. The DCT is a thirsty toy, 7 speed with rather low gearing at the top gear. Maybe the MT is partly to blame, the DCT was sacrificed to get an acceptable G8X mpg average...
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      12-02-2019, 11:39 AM   #232
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If the DCT is removed from the M2 as well I suspect it’s neither cost cutting or spa moms that drive the change but the same reason as for all other drivers car aspect removed so far ( NA high revving engines, HPS ) I.e. fuel efficiency. The DCT is a thirsty toy, 7 speed with rather low gearing at the top gear. Maybe the MT is partly to blame, the DCT was sacrificed to get an acceptable G8X mpg average...
AFAIK, all of the efficiency regulations (at least in Europe) apply to a fleetwide average of the cars of large manufacturers?

Also, since when did an M owner care about fuel efficiency? (at least in the US, where I still laugh at how cheap fuel is compared to the UK every time I fill up!) I get through most of a tank of gas in a 20 minute session at the track - average mpg is about 2.3!

Range anxiety is sometimes a little more of a problem though... especially when driving through the desert. (though I find that 7th gear on the DCT is plenty high enough for cruising)
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      12-02-2019, 11:53 AM   #233
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AFAIK, all of the efficiency regulations (at least in Europe) apply to a fleetwide average of the cars of large manufacturers?

Also, since when did an M owner care about fuel efficiency? (at least in the US, where I still laugh at how cheap fuel is compared to the UK every time I fill up!) I get through most of a tank of gas in a 20 minute session at the track - average mpg is about 2.3!

Range anxiety is sometimes a little more of a problem though... especially when driving through the desert. (though I find that 7th gear on the DCT is plenty high enough for cruising)
Itís not the owners that care itís BMW to comply with fuel efficiency measures. Again look no further than the replacement of a bespoke NA 4l V8 revving to 8.5k rpm with a 3l FI i6. Did M enthusiasts want that? Did they want a numb EPS instead of a communicative HPS? No.
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      12-02-2019, 12:19 PM   #234
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Itís not the owners that care itís BMW to comply with fuel efficiency measures. Again look no further than the replacement of a bespoke NA 4l V8 revving to 8.5k rpm with a 3l FI i6. Did M enthusiasts want that? Did they want a numb EPS instead of a communicative HPS? No.
I guess this is the problem with buying your performance car from a large auto maker. Smaller manufacturers don't seem to have any problem with these regulations - does McLaren make ecoboxes? Does Ferrari?

It also seems to me that Porsche are able to find ways around it - and they certainly don't have the sales volume of BMW to be able to hide a few performance cars in the fleet average mpg statistics.
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      12-02-2019, 12:49 PM   #235
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I guess this is the problem with buying your performance car from a large auto maker. Smaller manufacturers don't seem to have any problem with these regulations - does McLaren make ecoboxes? Does Ferrari?

It also seems to me that Porsche are able to find ways around it - and they certainly don't have the sales volume of BMW to be able to hide a few performance cars in the fleet average mpg statistics.
Non of them are immune. Porsche for example went 4 banger FI for the Cayman/Boxster and Ferrari is now mainly downsized FI engines and EPS is everywhere. DCT is still there though but for how long? I wouldnít be surprised to see AT creeping into the Panamera and Macan in the next iterations.
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      12-02-2019, 01:33 PM   #236
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Non of them are immune. Porsche for example went 4 banger FI for the Cayman/Boxster
And rumored to be going back to a naturally aspirated H6 soon as a result of customer feedback. Hence the need for our 'very small share of the market' to keep being vocal.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-flat-six-pdk/

Last edited by pbar; 12-02-2019 at 01:46 PM..
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      12-02-2019, 01:44 PM   #237
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Had a 2011 M3 and a 2014 M5 with DCT transmissions and I have zero complaints with the ZF8 in my X5M and I drive in manual mode very frequently.
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      12-02-2019, 01:55 PM   #238
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If the DCT is removed from the M2 as well I suspect it's neither cost cutting or spa moms that drive the change but the same reason as for all other drivers car aspect removed so far ( NA high revving engines, HPS ) I.e. fuel efficiency. The DCT is a thirsty toy, 7 speed with rather low gearing at the top gear. Maybe the MT is partly to blame, the DCT was sacrificed to get an acceptable G8X mpg average...
AFAIK, all of the efficiency regulations (at least in Europe) apply to a fleetwide average of the cars of large manufacturers?

Also, since when did an M owner care about fuel efficiency? (at least in the US, where I still laugh at how cheap fuel is compared to the UK every time I fill up!) I get through most of a tank of gas in a 20 minute session at the track - average mpg is about 2.3!

Range anxiety is sometimes a little more of a problem though... especially when driving through the desert. (though I find that 7th gear on the DCT is plenty high enough for cruising)
You are absolutely correct - emissions are a fleet wide average and have nothing to do with individual cars per se. It's the reason the i8 and i3 exist despite poor sales particularly in our market.

This is nothing more than a cost cutting exercise from BMW.
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      12-02-2019, 02:28 PM   #239
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You are absolutely correct - emissions are a fleet wide average and have nothing to do with individual cars per se. It's the reason the i8 and i3 exist despite poor sales particularly in our market.

This is nothing more than a cost cutting exercise from BMW.
The manufacturers are desperate since EU emission and fuel efficiency standards are brutal. Every car need to contribute. We are lucky that the whole M lineup isnít deleted. This is the unfortunate truth, at least until BMW can unleash a larger fleet of BEVs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...urers-big/amp/
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      12-03-2019, 02:11 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
The cold fact is that it just doesn't.

BMW had perfect transmission called M-DCT and if they are phasing out on the purest M variants just for cost cutting, there is no future for this company. At least not for M division.
People keep saying it's because of cost cutting, is it really? Source?

It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick.

And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost.
Buying power, production line costs writing software for one hardware platform. Basic business principles.
Thank you for explaining to me "basic business principles"

I understand it's cheaper. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing if that was the deciding factor in bringing it to the F90 and ultimately the g80.

I think cost was one of many things they considered and with performance very near the DCT, better low speed drivability, along with other performance cars using the ZF, you could make the argument that it made sense for the mixed use of an M car.

However, with that being said, their halo car the M8 is basically an M5... and all the interiors look the same... and every trim has the same steering wheel and the same digital dash and etc... so maybe you're right.
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      12-03-2019, 02:18 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick.

And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost.
Do you drive your F90 in auto mode all the time? Then you wouldn't feel much difference between the two.
If ZF8 were indeed superior, supercar brands like Ferrari would have been the first to adopt it. ZF8 can't rev high and is sluggish near redline. They are just not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
People keep saying it's because of cost cutting, is it really? Source?
The unit price of ZF8 is said to be one-third of a comparable Getrag(now Magna) DCT. What's interesting is Schmiedmann(they order directly from BMW) charges 14,500 euro for F10 M5 DCT but charges 10,000 euro for F90 M5 ZF8.

It's no wonder the chief bean counter (Quintus) of M division actively pushed for DCT to be gone since F10 M5; Albert Biermann, head of the M at the time, fought to retain the DCT which is why F10 didn't go automatic.
He told in an interview with C&D that one of the main reasons he left the company was that the board was no longer interested in building enthusiast cars, specifically mentioning their decision to cancel DCT for F90.
M cars aren't supercars, everything about those are raw, loud, and visceral. You don't daily a supercar. You daily an M. Apples and oranges.

No, I don't drive in auto mode all the time. I'm 50/50. My observations... Small delay when you rev out first but the car is faster when you short shift 1st anyway. But yes, a bit annoying. Downshifts feel just as quick, up shifts outside of 1st to 2nd are very quick, but maybe a quarter second slower than the DCT. No real complaints. MUCH better at slow speeds or in traffic. I'm not tracking the M5 so it's a fair trade in my opinion. Like I already said, I would have liked to see the DCT stay in the G80.

Interesting info about Quintus, I hadn't heard that yet.
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      12-03-2019, 02:31 AM   #242
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewsd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
The cold fact is that it just doesn't.

BMW had perfect transmission called M-DCT and if they are phasing out on the purest M variants just for cost cutting, there is no future for this company. At least not for M division.
People keep saying it's because of cost cutting, is it really? Source?

It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick.

And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost.
Buying power, production line costs writing software for one hardware platform. Basic business principles.
Thank you for explaining to me "basic business principles"

I understand it's cheaper. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing if that was the deciding factor in bringing it to the F90 and ultimately the g80.

I think cost was one of many things they considered and with performance very near the DCT, better low speed drivability, along with other performance cars using the ZF, you could make the argument that it made sense for the mixed use of an M car.

However, with that being said, their halo car the M8 is basically an M5... and all the interiors look the same... and every trim has the same steering wheel and the same digital dash and etc... so maybe you're right.
I apologise for sounding condescending. It wasn't my intention. But this is purely a cost issue.

If Mercedes pushes on with a DCT in an A class, I think its poor form for an M car to follow the masses in its segment.

Mercedes - Alfa - better engine, Better
Exhaust and in the case of Mercedes Better interior. Why buy an M?

What an M car had over these cars was driving dynamics. The DCT is a massive part of this winning formula. With a ZF it will lose that dynamic driving advantage.

I drove a Alfa quadrafoglio a week ago and all the journos raving about the ZF box must have driving a different car - it was terrible and no where near as good as our DCT.
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