[wtwo3]

I think M340i, C43, S4 etc are absolutely enthusiast targeted cars. Why would a non-enthusiast ever purchase them?

I define an enthusiast as someone who places higher value on their car/driving experience than the average consumer, for any given class of car. So in the midsize luxury sedan segment, if you don't place higher value on the car/driving experience, you have absolutely no reason to purchase an M340, C43 or S4 over a 330i, C300, or A4 respectively. It just wouldn't make any sense.

[6MTFTMFW]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I think M340i, C43, S4 etc are absolutely enthusiast targeted cars. Why would a non-enthusiast ever purchase them?

I define an enthusiast as someone who places higher value on their car/driving experience than the average consumer, for any given class of car. So in the midsize luxury sedan segment, if you don't place higher value on the car/driving experience, you have absolutely no reason to purchase an M340, C43 or S4 over a 330i, C300, or A4 respectively. It just wouldn't make any sense.

I guess we define the term enthusiast differently.
But I don't agree with your notion that there's absolutely no reason to by 340i and the others you'd mentioned.
Just for the sake of getting a 6 cylinder engine vs sewing machine ticking clacking sounding 4 banger is enough of a reason to go after 340/c43/s4 etc.

[NeverEnough007]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I don't know, some really good cars come out of the "disrupters" the first generation Lexus IS and the third/fourth generation G35/37 were pretty good Japanese Sport Sedans. The G in particular was close to stepping on BMW's toes back in the day. Sadly now though, neither brand makes anything as compelling. I see the G70 as a great replacement for those who might have owned an IS or G in the past.

Well said. I can from a g35xs sedan. It was a zhp 330 with the s54 motor already in it. The 4 door m3 bmw never built. Same power delivery as the m3 without any of the issues or maintenance, excellent handling like the Zhp, no unibody/chassis cracks. I hung onto that car far longer than I anticipated until I found a proper replacement. The m340i fit the bill. It gives me the same feeling of wanting to play with the car and hammer the car that was lacking in the f30.

Let’s hope the G70 continues to push forward with this momentum instead of straying away from the key selling points like Infiniti did.

[6MTFTMFW]

Originally Posted by EXE46

I disagree manual tranny is not a prerequisite. Besides soon you won't get manuals on M cars too. Nowhere is an enthusiast car defined as cars that only has manual transmission. Now if for you that's how you see it, that's a personal perspective. I believe there's a corolla that can still be had with manual today yet nobody would consider a Corolla an enthusiast car. C43 is same price point as M340i so that explanation is nonsense as well.

I didn't say it's a prerequisite, although in my book it's purist enthusiast's preference.
However I guarantee you that Kia had more enthusiasts in mind while building their 6MT G70 than BMW making G20's without MT option whatsoever in USA at least and instead focusing on all-digital gauge clusters, roomier than F30 back seats and other non-enthusiast creature comforts.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by 6MTFTMFW

I guess we define the term enthusiast differently.
But I don't agree with your notion that there's absolutely no reason to by 340i and the others you'd mentioned.
Just for the sake of getting a 6 cylinder engine vs sewing machine ticking clacking sounding 4 banger is enough of a reason to go after 340/c43/s4 etc.

Well the beauty of it all is that things aren't always black and white. There are varying degrees of "enthusiasts". I consider myself an enthusiast but I don't need the harsh ride and always go characteristics of a full on M car as my daily driver. And I can't really justify the financial requirements of having an M car just for some weekend driving.

As for non-enthusiasts getting an M340/C43/S4 just for the sake of having 6 cylinders, I'd argue that's the exception, which is why you have such a large disparity in sales between the base vs. performance variants. Most people do not place enough value on the difference in performance to justify the extra expense, and typically the ones that do, do so because they want the extra performance enough to pay for it.

And to your point of a "sewing machine ticking clacking sounding 4 banger", I don't find that to be the characteristic of a modern turbo 4 from the past 5 years. They're much smoother than they once were.

Just curious though - how do you define an enthusiast?

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by EXE46

I disagree manual tranny is not a prerequisite. Besides soon you won't get manuals on M cars too. Nowhere is an enthusiast car defined as cars that only has manual transmission. Now if for you that's how you see it, that's a personal perspective. I believe there's a corolla that can still be had with manual today yet nobody would consider a Corolla an enthusiast car. C43 is same price point as M340i so that explanation is nonsense as well.

There are enthusiasts who just like cars as toys and enthusiasts who like cars for driving. You can usually tell the difference as the former will (usually) turn their nose down at older cars and only lease whatever the latest car from their preferred manufacturer. They also tend to be more badge snobs and gravitate towards 0-60 and 1/4mi times. The latter are usually more likely to be open to other manufacturers and not obsess if their car has the latest tech gadget but rather prefer to have a driver focused car.

Also, just because a car HAS a manual doesn't make it an enthusiast car. That last person was just saying that a car had to have a manual to be an enthusiast car. I don't necessarily agree with that, but you are twisting his words and saying something completely different.

I don't have a problem with why you like cars. If you like them to show off that's fine. Cars are cool. Some people like them to work on them and show them off, others like to drive them on a track or on their favorite back roads. I think an automatic car can be an enthusiast model, but just in a different definition than what that other guy might have been saying.

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by 6MTFTMFW

I didn't say it's a prerequisite, although in my book it's purist enthusiast's preference.
However I guarantee you that Kia had more enthusiasts in mind while building their 6MT G70 than BMW making G20's without MT option whatsoever in USA at least and instead focusing on all-digital gauge clusters, roomier than F30 back seats and other non-enthusiast creature comforts.

Funny you mention the 4 banger genesis, who buys those? Wonder why they didnt put one in the 3.3T eh... The competition has the same dash, Audi/ MB, next Genesis will follow suit. Forget M cars because all M cars has their own faults, over priced relative to the competition and performance threshold etc, electric steering in bimmers is a bigger insult than having a good auto box.

My last BMW happened to be a manual and was driven for a decade and racked up almost 200k miles. So i understand the manual argument but like i said that doesn't mean jack regarding what a proper enthusiast/purist car is. Forget M cars, purist car is something like the Ford Mustang GT500, 991.2 GT3 etc.

So again we shall agree to disagree.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by 6MTFTMFW

Exactly my point. Most Kia/Huidai dealers were set up as bad credit alternative to Accord/Camry/Civic/Corolla. The mentality and the level of customer service hasn't changed. "you're lucky you drove off in a new car" is the mentality.
Not paying 38k or whatever that genesis costs.
And come on guys let's not go down the enthusiast lane
BMW only makes 3 enthusiast cars M2/M3/M4

Wrong! There's the m340i now.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

There are enthusiasts who just like cars as toys and enthusiasts who like cars for driving. You can usually tell the difference as the former will (usually) turn their nose down at older cars and only lease whatever the latest car from their preferred manufacturer. They also tend to be more badge snobs and gravitate towards 0-60 and 1/4mi times. The latter are usually more likely to be open to other manufacturers and not obsess if their car has the latest tech gadget but rather prefer to have a driver focused car.

Also, just because a car HAS a manual doesn't make it an enthusiast car. That last person was just saying that a car had to have a manual to be an enthusiast car. I don't necessarily agree with that, but you are twisting his words and saying something completely different.

I don't have a problem with why you like cars. If you like them to show off that's fine. Cars are cool. Some people like them to work on them and show them off, others like to drive them on a track or on their favorite back roads. I think an automatic car can be an enthusiast model, but just in a different definition than what that other guy might have been saying.

"What's the 0-60 for your car?" is analogous to "How much do ya bench?" among gym goers.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Well the beauty of it all is that things aren't always black and white. There are varying degrees of "enthusiasts". I consider myself an enthusiast but I don't need the harsh ride and always go characteristics of a full on M car as my daily driver. And I can't really justify the financial requirements of having an M car just for some weekend driving.

As for non-enthusiasts getting an M340/C43/S4 just for the sake of having 6 cylinders, I'd argue that's the exception, which is why you have such a large disparity in sales between the base vs. performance variants. Most people do not place enough value on the difference in performance to justify the extra expense, and typically the ones that do, do so because they want the extra performance enough to pay for it.

And to your point of a "sewing machine ticking clacking sounding 4 banger", I don't find that to be the characteristic of a modern turbo 4 from the past 5 years. They're much smoother than they once were.

Just curious though - how do you define an enthusiast?

Generally speaking, the more cylinders the better, so always choose the largest engine offered in the model that you're buying.

In summary, W16 is better than V12 > V10 > V8 > I6 > V6 > I4 > 3 pot > hybrid (unless mated to a 6 cylinder or higher) > EV > bicycle > walking > self driving car > crawling > standing still > being chased by a large, angry animal > dept of corrections bus > public transportation.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Generally speaking, the more cylinders the better, so always choose the largest engine offered in the model that you're buying.

In summary, W16 is better than V12 > V10 > V8 > I6 > V6 > I4 > 3 pot > hybrid (unless mated to a 6 cylinder or higher) > EV > bicycle > walking > self driving car > crawling > standing still > being chased by a large, angry animal > dept of corrections bus > public transportation.

Where do rotary engines fit in? And what's best, W16, V16, or H16?

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by 6MTFTMFW

I guess we define the term enthusiast differently.
But I don't agree with your notion that there's absolutely no reason to by 340i and the others you'd mentioned.
Just for the sake of getting a 6 cylinder engine vs sewing machine ticking clacking sounding 4 banger is enough of a reason to go after 340/c43/s4 etc.

If you know how many cylinders your engine has and you can tell the difference in sound, you are an enthusiast. The vast majority of people only care if the car is cool, comfortable, and gets max MPG.

[Germanauto]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...nd-cons-review

Ouch...

[hans007]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...nd-cons-review

Ouch...

Originally Posted by Germanauto

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...nd-cons-review

Ouch...

BMW has lost its way, the cars are so soft and practically benzes.


then g20 with m sport. my god it's so jarring, its unbearable.

these writers are never happy.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by hans007

BMW has lost its way, the cars are so soft and practically benzes.


then g20 with m sport. my god it's so jarring, its unbearable.

these writers are never happy.

I don't feel the G20's ride is too harsh. Brakes seem fine too.

Have to agree with the handling/steering comments though. Not to forget its dimensions of a land yacht.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by hans007

BMW has lost its way, the cars are so soft and practically benzes.


then g20 with m sport. my god it's so jarring, its unbearable.

these writers are never happy.

Maybe BMW forgot to send in their annual donation check to motortrend

[frenzel]

In Australia at least there’s no f-ing way I’m cross shopping $120 bimmer with a Hyundai. You’re not even in the same literal suburb when walking the dealerships, it’s a completely different market.

Next they’ll steal Ferrari engineers and there’ll be comparison reviews there too.

Call me a brand snob, but it works for the people buying second hand too....

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Where do rotary engines fit in? And what's best, W16, V16, or H16?

Rotary engines typically burn massive volumes of oil, so I'd say they slot between I4 and 3 cylinders. The 16 cylinder engines can all be ranked similarly since I don't know which configuration works best. I listed W16 since it would seem to be, essentially, two V8s.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by Transfer

If you know how many cylinders your engine has and you can tell the difference in sound, you are an enthusiast. The vast majority of people only care if the car is cool, comfortable, and gets max MPG.

Exactly, a non-enthusiast sees a 3 series and c class, not m340i and c43. I know plenty of people who would just see a bmw, Mercedes, or Audi, and not even know the model beyond that.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...nd-cons-review

Ouch...

Thanks for posting it Germanauto, but I'm not going to read that MT drivel. At least c&d and R&T tries to be entertaining.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Rotary engines typically burn massive volumes of oil, so I'd say they slot between I4 and 3 cylinders. The 16 cylinder engines can all be ranked similarly since I don't know which configuration works best. I listed W16 since it would seem to be, essentially, two V8s.

If you truly want unrest in the balance of the universe, you take public transportation with a W16 motor.

[jjscsix]

Originally Posted by 6MTFTMFW

I guess we define the term enthusiast differently.
But I don't agree with your notion that there's absolutely no reason to by 340i and the others you'd mentioned.
Just for the sake of getting a 6 cylinder engine vs sewing machine ticking clacking sounding 4 banger is enough of a reason to go after 340/c43/s4 etc.

I understand both of your points, but let me elaborate. I don’t understand why anyone would buy anything less than the six cylinder for the same reason as yours. I’ve had plenty of four cyclinder BMW loaners and was always aware that they did not excuse a premium feel.

Why spend extra money on a BMW over something like a well equipped Accord or some such car, but then go cheap on the engine. And it’s not about performance. It’s about the silky smoothest and effortless performance and it still gets great gas mileage.