[JTO24]

Originally Posted by Frosty

This is the 'M-Sport' front fascia correct?

I'm pretty sure it is since this is the M440i.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I can see where Dog Face Pony Soldier is coming from. IMO, it is how the electric assist system mechanically connects to the traditional steering rack that dampens transmitted feel and feedback. Programming can definitely make it better, but there's a limit to what programming can do.

Agreed.

My point is, and backed up by the article posted earlier, is that a majority of the lack of feedback is directly related to how BMW programmed the EPS. The designer is quoted as saying exactly that.

Maybe BMW can design a better mechanical interaction of the EPS somehow, it's already a pretty simple system, but if they program out the feel, because that's what they think the customer wants, it won't matter what the mechanical design is.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Agreed.

My point is, and backed up by the article posted earlier, is that a majority of the lack of feedback is directly related to how BMW programmed the EPS. The designer is quoted as saying exactly that.

Maybe BMW can design a better mechanical interaction of the EPS somehow, it's already a pretty simple system, but if they program out the feel, because that's what they think the customer wants, it won't matter what the mechanical design is.

It is my experience that the majority of buyers have no idea what good or bad steering is, their main measure is if the wheel is “easy to turn”...so BMW is sadly probably somewhat right

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by solstice

It is my experience that the majority of buyers have no idea what good or bad steering is, their main measure is if the wheel is “easy to turn”...so BMW is sadly probably somewhat right

Also, even if BMW improved steering in "sport" mode, I'm sure most buyers think they're really quite sporty and will select it, and then complain about ride quality or whatnot.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Jockey

My steering is always in comfort mode. Easier to control oversteer that way.

Anyways, I got used to the steering feel, even started to think it felt good. Then I would drive my gf's 135i and instantly realized how superior the feel was in that car over my M3.


But hyd steering is gone. Electric is cheaper, more reliable, and less mechanically complicated (less parasitic drag on engine, accessories, etc).

Porsche has figured it out. BMW has made gains (reference my comment earlier on CS/GTS programming over standard Ms). It'll get there.

Meh I think it's a gross simplification when people say Porsche has "figured it out." I haven't driven the 911 or Taycan, but I've driven all their other models and the steering is also a far cry from hydraulic racks. Yes it's fast and precise, but subjectively there's just a smidgen of actual road surface being transmitted to your hands. It feels a little too overboosted too. I'm sure it's all done on purpose, but EPS also by its very nature dampens vibration (aka "feel").

Still far better than the EPS on any BMW besides the M2, which is passable by my standards. I know BMW can do better with its steering because they've shown it with this model, they just choose not to. They've straight up admitted it.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Pinkoboe

EPS is indeed here to stay. The issue is that Porsche, Alfa Romeo, and (FFS!) Cadillac all make their EPS systems with much better steering feel. BMW could do it too, but they intentionally choose not to.

I was hoping that BMW would improve the steering calibration in the sport/sport plus mode of their vehicles to at least please the enthusiast crowd, but unfortunately they really haven't done anything except add this artificial sense of heft akin to a video game. That pleasing feeling of resistance against the wheels on turn in is not present in say the new M340i. It makes me think that the solution goes beyond just a simple reprogramming of the software or whatever. I'm sure suspension geometry, camber, etc. are all major contributors as well which are mechanical in nature and therefore set in stone with the intention of appeasing to the mass market.

BMW ultimately cannot be all things to all people. Before EPS cars generally did not have these programmable "modes." They came from the factory engineered the way they were supposed to be all the time, so if BMW wanted to make a sporty car it was solely focused on being a sporty car.

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Agreed.

My point is, and backed up by the article posted earlier, is that a majority of the lack of feedback is directly related to how BMW programmed the EPS. The designer is quoted as saying exactly that.

Maybe BMW can design a better mechanical interaction of the EPS somehow, it's already a pretty simple system, but if they program out the feel, because that's what they think the customer wants, it won't matter what the mechanical design is.

It's not simply programming. That's just my theory, but if it was a matter of programming, then BMW could put in a "hidden" Sport plus individual steering mode to satisfy the enthusiasts and journalists. They could leave normal Sport and Sport Plus to please the masses. The problem is the design of the steering rack, I'm almost sure of it, short of being an automotive engineer. My Chevy SS steering rack still feels like an EPS rack but it has some feedback. Porsche steering racks have an ample amount of feedback.

I believe that feedback is artificial using some type of force sensors to feed back into the steering wheel and that's what BMW lacks. Maybe it's easier to put in a mid or rear engine car since there is more space in the front of a Porsche. And maybe since GM uses shorter OHV V8 engines they have more room to fit in a proper steering rack. Who knows what it is, but I am convinced it is not simply a matter of software. It's in the hardware. They can reduce the steering ratio to mask some of this like Alfa does, which may be why the car is supposed to feel more jittery, but they haven't addressed the core problem the way GM and Porsche have.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

It's not simply programming. That's just my theory, but if it was a matter of programming, then BMW could put in a "hidden" Sport plus individual steering mode to satisfy the enthusiasts and journalists. They could leave normal Sport and Sport Plus to please the masses. The problem is the design of the steering rack, I'm almost sure of it, short of being an automotive engineer. My Chevy SS steering rack still feels like an EPS rack but it has some feedback. Porsche steering racks have an ample amount of feedback.

I believe that feedback is artificial using some type of force sensors to feed back into the steering wheel and that's what BMW lacks. Maybe it's easier to put in a mid or rear engine car since there is more space in the front of a Porsche. And maybe since GM uses shorter OHV V8 engines they have more room to fit in a proper steering rack. Who knows what it is, but I am convinced it is not simply a matter of software. It's in the hardware. They can reduce the steering ratio to mask some of this like Alfa does, which may be why the car is supposed to feel more jittery, but they haven't addressed the core problem the way GM and Porsche have.

I'm not 100% sure, but didn't the Caddy ATS use the same ZF steering rack as the 3-series?

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by jstein55

I'm not 100% sure, but didn't the Caddy ATS use the same ZF steering rack as the 3-series?

I don't believe GM uses ZF steering racks which I thought most 3 series had.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

It's not simply programming. That's just my theory, but if it was a matter of programming, then BMW could put in a "hidden" Sport plus individual steering mode to satisfy the enthusiasts and journalists. They could leave normal Sport and Sport Plus to please the masses. The problem is the design of the steering rack, I'm almost sure of it, short of being an automotive engineer. My Chevy SS steering rack still feels like an EPS rack but it has some feedback. Porsche steering racks have an ample amount of feedback.

I believe that feedback is artificial using some type of force sensors to feed back into the steering wheel and that's what BMW lacks. Maybe it's easier to put in a mid or rear engine car since there is more space in the front of a Porsche. And maybe since GM uses shorter OHV V8 engines they have more room to fit in a proper steering rack. Who knows what it is, but I am convinced it is not simply a matter of software. It's in the hardware. They can reduce the steering ratio to mask some of this like Alfa does, which may be why the car is supposed to feel more jittery, but they haven't addressed the core problem the way GM and Porsche have.

BMW steering racks had feedback, when it was hydraulic assist. We went to EPS and it was mostly gone.

The rack itself really didn't change that much. That's why I don't think the rack is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not saying that the hardware interaction of the EPS might not be flawed, I just find it hard to believe BMW forgot how to make a proper steering rack.

[J-RO]

The steering that should concern us is what on coming cars will do when they see the “bold new face of BMW” grille coming at them!

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Frosty

This is the 'M-Sport' front fascia correct?

Yes this is the M Sport Packet.

[bmrm396]

^^^ oh NO, ouch that was not the answer I was hoping for

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Jockey

BMW steering racks had feedback, when it was hydraulic assist. We went to EPS and it was mostly gone.

The rack itself really didn't change that much. That's why I don't think the rack is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not saying that the hardware interaction of the EPS might not be flawed, I just find it hard to believe BMW forgot how to make a proper steering rack.

I wonder how many people could actually tell the difference between a good hydraulic rack and a good EPS rack in a "blind" drive?

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I wonder how many people could actually tell the difference between a good hydraulic rack and a good EPS rack in a "blind" drive?

It's painfully obvious. I thought the F30 steering was broken when I first drove it. Hadn't read an article about it until I bought mine.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I wonder how many people could actually tell the difference between a good hydraulic rack and a good EPS rack in a "blind" drive?

You can literally tell the moment you try to turn the wheel from a stand still. Hydraulic BMW steering was very stiff whereas EPS (regardless of the manufacturer) is fingertip light.

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

I don't believe GM uses ZF steering racks which I thought most 3 series had.

In the ATS they did and it was fantastic, I had a premium line and its steering was great, the suspension very very good (magride), but the transmission sucked, and sucked bad. I really wanted to get a CT4-V but was unhappy with a few compromises Id have to make such a smaller 8" screen, inability to shift manually from the gear selector, an interior that was little sub-par compared to the CT5, which felt like utter luxury. Plus I was concerned about the infotainment software being funky. iDrive is familiar. Due to factory closures, there are only 12 available within 500 miles and only 3 within 100 and none of them were configured with desired options such as Nav AND sunroof. So the M340 won out and so far Ive very pleased and am enjoying more than my Alfa which it replaced or the F80 I had before that.

[Frosty]

"...Engine on, and in the digital instrument display appears a short animation of the finished 4 Series. We won't give too much away, but the mega-kidney is coming, friends – you can be sure of that. ..."

Wish Motor 1 took a picture ha ha!

[Frosty]

"...Its turbocharged 3.0-litre in-line six-cylinder engine is combined with a 48V electrical architecture in a development that introduces mild hybrid properties, including off-throttle coasting...."

What is off throttle coasting? Can you use the electric assist in traffic?

[mbanck]

I read that to mean that once you get off the throttle, the MHEV system tries to keep the speed constant as much as possible in order to save gas.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

You can literally tell the moment you try to turn the wheel from a stand still. Hydraulic BMW steering was very stiff whereas EPS (regardless of the manufacturer) is fingertip light.

F10 M5 was hydraulic and it was also fingertip light. Also, my E92 M3 steering was definitely lighter than M4 that I’ve owned and also lighter than M340i that I test drove a couple of times.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

F10 M5 was hydraulic and it was also fingertip light. Also, my E92 M3 steering was definitely lighter than M4 that I’ve owned and also lighter than M340i that I test drove a couple of times.

I'm referring to the E-chassis models. I personally found the E92 steering to be heavier than the the M4 at low speeds. M340i is definitely light at lower speeds especially without sport mode enables.