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      05-04-2020, 03:23 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I wonder how many people could actually tell the difference between a good hydraulic rack and a good EPS rack in a "blind" drive?
You can literally tell the moment you try to turn the wheel from a stand still. Hydraulic BMW steering was very stiff whereas EPS (regardless of the manufacturer) is fingertip light.
The E9X M3 steering wasn't heavy, especially with the variable steering modes.
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      05-04-2020, 08:27 AM   #112
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BMW was a standout for the longest time for having a natural feeling steering in the sense that the power steering interfered little with the feeling of steering before the time of power steering. There was enough boost to not make steering overly cumbersome but not enough to make it numb and artificial.

Even before EPS the world was full of brands and cars with over boosted steering with worse feel than today’s good EPS systems as that of the M3.

An immediate giveaway is the return to center force and the center weight. No EPS system has gotten that right yet, it’s too weak and too artificial. A blind test would reveal this immediately between good HPS and EPS, not so much bad HPS and EPS. Then there are a myriad of smaller signs that all contribute to that connected feel via the steering of the good HPS car.
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      05-04-2020, 09:52 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
BMW was a standout for the longest time for having a natural feeling steering in the sense that the power steering interfered little with the feeling of steering before the time of power steering. There was enough boost to not make steering overly cumbersome but not enough to make it numb and artificial.

Even before EPS the world was full of brands and cars with over boosted steering with worse feel than today's good EPS systems as that of the M3.

An immediate giveaway is the return to center force and the center weight. No EPS system has gotten that right yet, it's too weak and too artificial. A blind test would reveal this immediately between good HPS and EPS, not so much bad HPS and EPS. Then there are a myriad of smaller signs that all contribute to that connected feel via the steering of the good HPS car.
People used to complain incessantly about the E9X M3's hydraulic unit in the "normal" setting. Claims that it was over-boosted, lacked feel, etc., and people preferred to drive in the Servotronic "Sport" setting just to regain what they defined as feel. When I went from my E9X M3 to a '14 335i, I didn't feel like I was really giving up much in terms of steering. I've never had an issue with BMW's EPS racks. People have short memories and everybody acts like the hydraulic systems were universally loved without complaint. The same stuff people complain about with regards to EPS systems are the same things they complained about with HPS systems.
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      05-04-2020, 10:34 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
People used to complain incessantly about the E9X M3's hydraulic unit in the "normal" setting. Claims that it was over-boosted, lacked feel, etc., and people preferred to drive in the Servotronic "Sport" setting just to regain what they defined as feel. When I went from my E9X M3 to a '14 335i, I didn't feel like I was really giving up much in terms of steering. I've never had an issue with BMW's EPS racks. People have short memories and everybody acts like the hydraulic systems were universally loved without complaint. The same stuff people complain about with regards to EPS systems are the same things they complained about with HPS systems.
Personally I noticed a big difference between my E90 M3 and my F80’s steering. The F80 is ok though, it’s no longer one of things I love about the M3 but it’s alright and nowhere near the complete disaster of the F10’s EPS. Not all HPS BMWs has had the same feel but it was always a standout feature including the E90 M3. Not so anymore.
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      05-04-2020, 10:37 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
BMW was a standout for the longest time for having a natural feeling steering in the sense that the power steering interfered little with the feeling of steering before the time of power steering. There was enough boost to not make steering overly cumbersome but not enough to make it numb and artificial.

Even before EPS the world was full of brands and cars with over boosted steering with worse feel than today's good EPS systems as that of the M3.

An immediate giveaway is the return to center force and the center weight. No EPS system has gotten that right yet, it's too weak and too artificial. A blind test would reveal this immediately between good HPS and EPS, not so much bad HPS and EPS. Then there are a myriad of smaller signs that all contribute to that connected feel via the steering of the good HPS car.
People used to complain incessantly about the E9X M3's hydraulic unit in the "normal" setting. Claims that it was over-boosted, lacked feel, etc., and people preferred to drive in the Servotronic "Sport" setting just to regain what they defined as feel. When I went from my E9X M3 to a '14 335i, I didn't feel like I was really giving up much in terms of steering. I've never had an issue with BMW's EPS racks. People have short memories and everybody acts like the hydraulic systems were universally loved without complaint. The same stuff people complain about with regards to EPS systems are the same things they complained about with HPS systems.
Everyone reacts differently I guess. My wife refused to upgrade from her E90 335i because of the steering and handling. The steering on the early F30's in particular was very bad in my opinion, not just in feedback but also the weighting and too much play off center in the steering was just not very BMW-like.
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      05-04-2020, 10:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
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BMW was a standout for the longest time for having a natural feeling steering in the sense that the power steering interfered little with the feeling of steering before the time of power steering. There was enough boost to not make steering overly cumbersome but not enough to make it numb and artificial.

Even before EPS the world was full of brands and cars with over boosted steering with worse feel than today's good EPS systems as that of the M3.

An immediate giveaway is the return to center force and the center weight. No EPS system has gotten that right yet, it's too weak and too artificial. A blind test would reveal this immediately between good HPS and EPS, not so much bad HPS and EPS. Then there are a myriad of smaller signs that all contribute to that connected feel via the steering of the good HPS car.
People used to complain incessantly about the E9X M3's hydraulic unit in the "normal" setting. Claims that it was over-boosted, lacked feel, etc., and people preferred to drive in the Servotronic "Sport" setting just to regain what they defined as feel. When I went from my E9X M3 to a '14 335i, I didn't feel like I was really giving up much in terms of steering. I've never had an issue with BMW's EPS racks. People have short memories and everybody acts like the hydraulic systems were universally loved without complaint. The same stuff people complain about with regards to EPS systems are the same things they complained about with HPS systems.
Everyone reacts differently I guess. My wife refused to upgrade from her E90 335i because of the steering and handling. The steering on the early F30's in particular was very bad in my opinion, not just in feedback but also the weighting and too much play off center in the steering was just not very BMW-like.
I guess that's the point. Everybody's perspective on what is or isn't BMW-like varies.
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      05-04-2020, 10:44 AM   #117
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I guess that's the point. Everybody's perspective on what is or isn't BMW-like varies.
True, I do recall an objective scientific test though that confirmed the relative numbness of BMW EPS vs HPS.
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      05-04-2020, 10:47 AM   #118
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I guess that's the point. Everybody's perspective on what is or isn't BMW-like varies.
True, I do recall an objective scientific test though that confirmed the relative numbness of BMW EPS vs HPS.
...but how would one quantify/qualify the numbness?!?
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      05-04-2020, 11:06 AM   #119
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...but how would one quantify/qualify the numbness?!?
Amplitude from steering sensors. Lower amplitude equals less information communicated to your hands which equal number steering.
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      05-04-2020, 11:26 AM   #120
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...but how would one quantify/qualify the numbness?!?
Amplitude from steering sensors. Lower amplitude equals less information communicated to your hands which equal number steering.
Thanks for that! I am thankful that I've never found issue with the steering. I'm more than happy.
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      05-05-2020, 03:22 AM   #121
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For those questioning whether or not they changed the grills back to be smaller... we've already seen a less camo'd mule...


The car is getting the big grills.
This looks......fine. Not amazing, but fine. I'm rather surprised.
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