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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 Sedan Forum (2019+) Carsten Pries BMW M Product Head Confirms AWD and More For G80 M3

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      03-13-2019, 12:08 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Car manufacturers focus more and more on transportation. The driving fun factor is going with every new series more to the background.

If you don t use the 4wd system you are carrying the weight always with you.

New M3 is just an old M5. Nice fast daily driver. 1600 kg and awd is no fun anymore. That is transportation!

We need to go back to smaller nimbler cars with less horsepower and lower weight.

I drive an 950kg and 330hp e30 m3 DTM on track. This car is so amazing.
that 950kg feel is a dream to steer and brake into corners.

I am done buying bigger and heavier ///M Cars. Now AWD also. It s getting worse with every new series. If i want an awd then it s either a x3M or a 4wd car with awd system with mechanical diffs like an mitsubishi evolution rally car in a very small car.
How about the M2? That's smaller, lighter, etc?
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      03-13-2019, 12:10 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
You might be right...but not at the horsepower levels we expect to see for the G80/82.

IIRC the G80/82 Competition will be around 500 BHP...which just happens to be the amount we saw in the E60 M5...which was also RWD, all the time.

I am not an E60 expert - but I don't recall complaints with being able to use all the power with a full-time RWD car at those BHP levels. I think most of the complaints were associated with the SMG.

Just an alternative viewpoint...
This is the article I thought would be helpful (remembered reading it a while ago):

https://www.carlist.my/news/horsepow...-number/43351/
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      03-13-2019, 12:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JMon View Post
Remember that car has a much different weight distribution with the engine behind the rear wheels. It also drives much different than an M car. You can't apply AWD concepts from the 911 to the M3. Also I think awd is about being faster on the street. Not so much as being a whole lot faster on the track.
AWD is about convincing people that they REALLY need power to all four wheels to go up their driveway with some wet leaves on it...

Funny, no one seems to understand that AWD does nothing to help you stop more quickly.

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      03-13-2019, 12:14 PM   #48
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No i own an M2C also.

I went from 1M Coupe to M2 to m2C

Thats from fun 1M coupe to worse.

M2C is also much to heavy at almost 1600kg. You feel the weight in the M2C also this car has grown to much in size and weight!

Nice for daily drive but for track and attack corners it s way to heavy.

If i could buy the 1m coupe new that would be my choice!
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      03-13-2019, 12:18 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
This is the article I thought would be helpful (remembered reading it a while ago):

https://www.carlist.my/news/horsepow...-number/43351/
Good read for sure.

But we aren't at that magic number for the G80/82. There's at least an argument that BMW is being lazy here...instead of giving the car enough tire width and developing the chassis to effectively handle 500 BHP and RWD, they're slapping AWD on it and calling it a day.

again, just an alternative viewpoint.
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      03-13-2019, 12:27 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-Furby View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2Rob View Post
Just don't understand the fascination with buying an automatic to get .05 seconds faster the dozen or so times you go to a drag strip. that's about 4 of the 100k miles you will put on the car. give me a manual so I can enjoy the other 99k miles.

AWD adds weight, but, as long as you can send everything to the rear whenever you want, just add a tune to make up for the weight. AWD is certainly different, but its not aweful as long as it is optional. My Audi has it's character, but don't get it sideways! No control!

BTW, why is everyone complaining that they can't the HP to the ground? That's not a RWD issue, that just means that, A) Your wheel are not wide enough, and B) You are trying to floor it at to low of a speed. There is NOTHING more exhilarating than flooring 500 or 600 horses in 3rd gear (manual) and running it out. Just cant do it in 1st or 2nd.
A couple years ago I go to the track (M Track days) with a friend of mine. She has the M2 (just came out) and because she bought it off the lot it was DCT. During the drive up she said she was going to sell her M2 and buy a manual version. She said she felt it would be much better for the track (she was new to tracking, and this may have been her first experience...i might be wrong about the last part). After the track event, she no longer wanted to sell the M2. She was so focused on driving she was happy to not have to bother about manual shifting.

On top of that, the DCT is quicker than manual, and when you track, quicker is better.

For DD, I live in the city, so manual is more effort than worth it. Plus, how do you eat a bacon cheeseburger, drink a milkshake and drive a manual at the same time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-Furby View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2Rob View Post
Just don't understand the fascination with buying an automatic to get .05 seconds faster the dozen or so times you go to a drag strip. that's about 4 of the 100k miles you will put on the car. give me a manual so I can enjoy the other 99k miles.

AWD adds weight, but, as long as you can send everything to the rear whenever you want, just add a tune to make up for the weight. AWD is certainly different, but its not aweful as long as it is optional. My Audi has it's character, but don't get it sideways! No control!

BTW, why is everyone complaining that they can't the HP to the ground? That's not a RWD issue, that just means that, A) Your wheel are not wide enough, and B) You are trying to floor it at to low of a speed. There is NOTHING more exhilarating than flooring 500 or 600 horses in 3rd gear (manual) and running it out. Just cant do it in 1st or 2nd.
A couple years ago I go to the track (M Track days) with a friend of mine. She has the M2 (just came out) and because she bought it off the lot it was DCT. During the drive up she said she was going to sell her M2 and buy a manual version. She said she felt it would be much better for the track (she was new to tracking, and this may have been her first experience...i might be wrong about the last part). After the track event, she no longer wanted to sell the M2. She was so focused on driving she was happy to not have to bother about manual shifting.

On top of that, the DCT is quicker than manual, and when you track, quicker is better.

For DD, I live in the city, so manual is more effort than worth it. Plus, how do you eat a bacon cheeseburger, drink a milkshake and drive a manual at the same time?
Blasphemy! Every car guy will tell you, it's a car, not a restaurant! If you want cup holders and automatic transmissions, buy a Honda!

So, my final statement on the transmission. I dont let the car select my radio station or the volume. I dont let the car select the temperature or the window status. I dont let the car select my seat position or height. And i never want the car to steer, brake, or accelerate for me. So, why, in the hell, would I let the car pick the gears for me? Why buy a sports car if it is going to self drive?
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      03-13-2019, 12:34 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-Furby View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Exactly! Part of the NA take rate for manuals on the M3 (25%) and M2 (50%) was directly coming from their competition not offering a manual transmission. So continue to take those customers and the ones that are wanting AWD and own a larger part of that segment. Also, the manual will offset the weight of the AWD, making it a good DAily Driver package.

The HP war and 0-60 times are ruining sports cars IMO. A 350HP car that is smaller and lighter is much more fun than a complex 500hp monster that needs additional systems, more width, and complex traction mechanisms to handle the unnecessary/unusable power.
I know manual is lighter (just a tiny bit) than auto, but how does that make it DD? Sitting in traffic and going from neutral to 1st to 2nd and back to neutral, over and over is not my idea of fun. Trying to see the other point of view on this

For me, 0.1 seconds from manual to auto is not an issue (I ain't that good anyhow), it's allowing me to focus on driving on the track where split second reaction (shifting) can mean the difference in losing control or staying the course. AWD = putting power down, because spin is a total waste of power
I daily drive my manual F80 60 miles. Fortunately the times I commute there isn't much traffic and I'm against the flow. If I had to commute in the LA or Bay Area I probably wouldn't have a manual tbh
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      03-13-2019, 12:34 PM   #52
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"Now, if you want to complain about something: Lack of ventilated seats. When tracking my car the windows MUST be rolled down, and it's hot outside. I'd like my bootay to not be hot. Vent my BOOTAY "


You just need a cool shirt system! That is what I use when I track my M3. Cooler sits nicely bolted down in the back seat floor. Put on under your fire suit and your good to go!
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      03-13-2019, 12:41 PM   #53
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I hate to admit it, but the AWD does come down to practicality I think. BMW can't have a bunch of average badge buyers out there in 500+ hp RWD cars spinning tires like total idiots. For one, they'll look like fools. More importantly, they'll bitch about how the car is twitchy, rough and slides around.
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      03-13-2019, 01:27 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-Furby View Post
How about the M2? That's smaller, lighter, etc?
More nimble

M3/M4 feels like a supertanker compared to an M2
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      03-13-2019, 01:32 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Car manufacturers focus more and more on transportation. The driving fun factor is going with every new series more to the background.

If you don t use the 4wd system you are carrying the weight always with you.

New M3 is just an old M5. Nice fast daily driver. 1600 kg and awd is no fun anymore. That is transportation!

We need to go back to smaller nimbler cars with less horsepower and lower weight.

I drive an 950kg and 330hp e30 m3 DTM on track. This car is so amazing.
that 950kg feel is a dream to steer and brake into corners.

I am done buying bigger and heavier ///M Cars. Now AWD also. It s getting worse with every new series. If i want an awd then it s either a x3M or a 4wd car with awd system with mechanical diffs like an mitsubishi evolution rally car in a very small car.


+1

There is no learning curve on weight and size, that is a shame IMHO.

Driving Dynamics is key, lower the weight, you don`t need big HP numbers, it wil make driving more alive and kicking.

The smaller / lighter / agiler the car, the better.

Used to own many M3`s, I know better now! The smallest ///M is the nicest one, not necessarily the fastest, but most fun anyway.
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      03-13-2019, 01:40 PM   #56
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anyone know if the rear brakes will be sliding caliper design just like the M5?
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      03-13-2019, 01:48 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romo View Post
More nimble

M3/M4 feels like a supertanker compared to an M2
Really? Per this link, it's a 25 lb difference from M2 comp to 2019 M4 - manual for both. 30 for auto

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1520635
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      03-13-2019, 01:59 PM   #58
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^In this case it`s not the weight that makes the difference, but the wheelbase is.

I`ve driven them both, extensively, the M2 is by far the more nimble and agile car, quicker steering reactions. That`s how I want my BMW`s.
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      03-13-2019, 02:11 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romo View Post
^In this case it`s not the weight that makes the difference, but the wheelbase is.

I`ve driven them both, extensively, the M2 is by far the more nimble and agile car, quicker steering reactions. That`s how I want my BMW`s.
+1. The M4 feels massive compared to the M2. Shorter wheelbase makes a bigger difference than you’d expect.
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      03-13-2019, 02:15 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romo View Post
^In this case it`s not the weight that makes the difference, but the wheelbase is.

I`ve driven them both, extensively, the M2 is by far the more nimble and agile car, quicker steering reactions. That`s how I want my BMW`s.
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+1. The M4 feels massive compared to the M2. Shorter wheelbase makes a bigger difference than you’d expect.
Agreed with you both - we have an F80 and F87 and there's a massive difference in "feel" - subjective for sure, but definitely a major difference for me.
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      03-13-2019, 02:18 PM   #61
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I got so excited reading "8 speed double clutch"...then I scrolled down and read the comments lol
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      03-13-2019, 02:20 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-Furby View Post
I know manual is lighter (just a tiny bit) than auto, but how does that make it DD? Sitting in traffic and going from neutral to 1st to 2nd and back to neutral, over and over is not my idea of fun. Trying to see the other point of view on this

For me, 0.1 seconds from manual to auto is not an issue (I ain't that good anyhow), it's allowing me to focus on driving on the track where split second reaction (shifting) can mean the difference in losing control or staying the course. AWD = putting power down, because spin is a total waste of power
Manual fans that want an AWD daily with 4-doors are forced to a Golf R or Subaru, now that others are not offering manuals. That is why I bought a Focus RS after they announced they would not make them anymore. I need one AWD car and will only buy a manual. I am not sure why a manufacturer like BMW would not jump on this segment?

I consider myself a die-hard manual fan and do not like seeing it discontinued in the 3 series and only available in the M3 Pure.

YMMV, but owning a manual and driving in heavy traffic has never been a problem for me, only once on a hill in San Francisco moving a couple inches at a time for over an hour did I ever consider not having a 6MT.
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      03-13-2019, 02:37 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
The laws of physics are what they are and cannot be changed. As the horsepower continues to increase to satisfy customer demand, transferring all power to rear wheels only becomes impractical.
You might be right...but not at the horsepower levels we expect to see for the G80/82.

IIRC the G80/82 Competition will be around 500 BHP...which just happens to be the amount we saw in the E60 M5...which was also RWD, all the time.

I am not an E60 expert - but I don't recall complaints with being able to use all the power with a full-time RWD car at those BHP levels. I think most of the complaints were associated with the SMG.

Just an alternative viewpoint...
But E60 M5 had a V10 NA engine, not a TT I6 with massive amount of low end torque. It's a different world really.
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      03-13-2019, 02:41 PM   #64
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But E60 M5 had a V10 NA engine, not a TT I6 with massive amount of low end torque. It's a different world really.
I am pretty sure that V10 had 520 NM of torque...certainly not characteristic of a FI motor, but not a dog either.
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      03-13-2019, 02:43 PM   #65
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So it sounds like maybe a manual in a CS version of the car?! So I have to spend around 100k for an M3 just to have a manual?!

Sucks that numbers wars govern so much of what happens with these performance cars, my e90/991 combo is looking better and better to me...
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      03-13-2019, 02:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
AWD is about convincing people that they REALLY need power to all four wheels to go up their driveway with some wet leaves on it...

Funny, no one seems to understand that AWD does nothing to help you stop more quickly.

Although 4wd to 2wd is different than an AWD system, based on this test AWD might actually stop quicker than RWD. (before I get hate mail, key would MIGHT!)

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