[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Fuller

In the world of automobile journalism, this is old news.

In reality though, the 3 series, and automotive technology in general, has changed so much since it's inception, and teams of engineers have come and gone at bmw and every other manufacturer, so I don't think it's completely accurate to say that bmw has had decades to fine tune the 3 series. It assumes a nice neat, linear continuity that doesn't really exist. For one example, all it takes is a newer manufacturer to poach an engineer from a more "experienced" brand's team, and they acquire a fair bit of that wisdom and experience.

Well said!

[MmmmmM2]

I sat in a Model 3 yesterday at Fashion Island in Newport Beach. The build quality on those cars is absolute craporama.

[vladmury]

You dont buy Model3 for build quality, you buy for the drivetrain and technology.

If you want build quality, buy a German car.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by vladmury

You dont buy Model3 for build quality, you buy for the drivetrain and technology.

If you want build quality, buy a German car.

100% agree. Like how when people buy German cars, they know going in about lower long term reliability, people who buy Tesla's surely know about build quality and any other items addressed in the news. Its all about the tech and the experience of having something unlike any other normal vehicle on the road.

We may look of course for build quality and other items, but most of the GP can overlook those things for how different and futuristic the Tesla is.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by vladmury

You dont buy Model3 for build quality, you buy for the drivetrain and technology.

If you want build quality, buy a German car.

What? You can't be serious.

If I buy a car I want good build quality. When I shut the door on that Model 3 it made me sick that sound was so hollow and brittle.

And Tesla long term reliability has yet to be really seen.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by Fuller

...I don't think it's completely accurate to say that bmw has had decades to fine tune the 3 series...

The fact remains that the G20 has been on the losing end of virtually every comparison it’s been in with the Model 3.

Doesn’t mean that the Model 3 is right for everyone, but the critics and buying public have spoken, and they overwhelmingly prefer the Tesla overall.

[openwheelracing]

I don't buy BMWs for "tech" and "door sound". I would've never bought any if that's true. Model 3 has that Audi rock solid feel without Audi switch gear perfection. Nothing creaks or moves. I just drove a Q5 for a week and yes, there are more hard plastic and panel gap in a Q5.

Model 3 excels as a whole package. Reality hurts. I have to admit as a BMW fanboy since Dad brought home a brand new E30. Model 3 is simply the better car. No question in my mind, but Tesla as a company remains to be seen. All things are trending in eight direction though. If early indications holds true, Tesla powertrain reliability will be Toyotas dream.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

I don't buy BMWs for "tech" and "door sound". I would've never bought any if that's true. Model 3 has that Audi rock solid feel without Audi switch gear perfection. Nothing creaks or moves. I just drove a Q5 for a week and yes, there are more hard plastic and panel gap in a Q5.

Model 3 excels as a whole package. Reality hurts. I have to admit as a BMW fanboy since Dad brought home a brand new E30. Model 3 is simply the better car. No question in my mind, but Tesla as a company remains to be seen. All things are trending in eight direction though. If early indications holds true, Tesla powertrain reliability will be Toyotas dream.

I don't think "better/best" has one universal definition. What's better for John isn't necessarily the best for Jane. I'm not knocking the Model 3, but it's definitely not the best/better car for me. Not by a long shot. I'm not saying that my/the ///M4 is the best/better car for everyone else, but it's the perfect car for me.....even if it isn't laden with the latest tech gadgetry (...I pass on most of the techy stuff/packages anyway; I only care about navigation). I'm not interested in self-driving/autopilot abilities, nor radar cruise control, lane avoidance/detection, etc. I'm not interested in being driven. I prefer to drive.

[Ras550]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

I don't buy BMWs for "tech" and "door sound". I would've never bought any if that's true. Model 3 has that Audi rock solid feel without Audi switch gear perfection. Nothing creaks or moves. I just drove a Q5 for a week and yes, there are more hard plastic and panel gap in a Q5.

Same with a modern 3 series - plenty of hard plastic, whereas I don't see any hard plastic in my 3P. And like I've said earlier, even the fiercest Tesla critics (Lutz for example) have praised the model gaps on the 3. Most of this is just lack of awareness on part of the general public.

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

If early indications holds true, Tesla powertrain reliability will be Toyotas dream.

I saw that picture of the model 3 motors with a million miles on it, and they looked brand new. My E90 started giving problems at under 100K miles, same with my E39. Enough said.

[Ras550]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't think "better/best" has one universal definition. What's better for John isn't necessarily the best for Jane. I'm not knocking the Model 3, but it's definitely not the best/better car for me. Not by a long shot. I'm not saying that my/the ///M4 is the best/better car for everyone else, but it's the perfect car for me.....even if it isn't laden with the latest tech gadgetry (...I pass on most of the techy stuff/packages anyway; I only care about navigation). I'm not interested in self-driving/autopilot abilities, nor radar cruise control, lane avoidance/detection, etc. I'm not interested in being driven. I prefer to drive.

Of course, and no one can decide what the best car is for you. What openwheelracing and others are saying is that if you look at most professional reviewers, and countless enthusiasts, the Model 3 is the better driver's car for them.

As for tech features, I never paid for any of the tech packages on my bmws before. However, ALL of it comes standard on a model 3 and most of it is unreal. I'm not even talking about the self-driving features. If you can improve your car's HP by 25 hp in an OTA software update, all for free, would you say no thanks, I'd prefer less power? Or would you say no to an onboard dash cam which automatically records all the time and if someone t-bones you or rear ends you, you have solid proof. Again all of this is included in every single Tesla for no extra charge. I'd say other automakers have a thing or two to learn here in terms of delivering value to their customers.

[vladmury]

Originally Posted by F30ZHP

What? You can't be serious.

If I buy a car I want good build quality. When I shut the door on that Model 3 it made me sick that sound was so hollow and brittle.

And Tesla long term reliability has yet to be really seen.

I would buy a BMW if they offered an EV with the same performance and range as a Tesla, but they don't have one yet.

I like the G20. It has a high quality feel and drives great, but at its price I can get a Model 3P, so its a no brainer.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't think "better/best" has one universal definition

I can't argue with sales figures. Toyota Camry has been great and it outsold all. F150 has.been a great 1/2 ton and it outsold all. Model 3 is off to a jump start and growing the lead. Somethings cannot be ignored.

[mcjohnsonsg]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

I can't argue with sales figures. Toyota Camry has been great and it outsold all. F150 has.been a great 1/2 ton and it outsold all. Model 3 is off to a jump start and growing the lead. Somethings cannot be ignored.

But neither the Camry or F150 has always been the best of its class. Sales figures aren't everything, as most members of the public don't shop around and have zero interest in cars. The Model 3 may be selling well, but that has nothing to do with whether it is a better car or not. As with all such things, it's better than the BMW 3 in some ways, worse in others. Speaking for myself, I can't consider a Model 3 until the charging options are more readily available and quicker...it just wouldn't work for what I need a car for. It also needs a major interior overhaul...the big screen just looks wrong to me.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by vladmury

I would buy a BMW if they offered an EV with the same performance and range as a Tesla, but they don't have one yet.

I like the G20. It has a high quality feel and drives great, but at its price I can get a Model 3P, so its a no brainer.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by mcjohnsonsg

But neither the Camry or F150 has always been the best of its class. Sales figures aren't everything, as most members of the public don't shop around and have zero interest in cars. The Model 3 may be selling well, but that has nothing to do with whether it is a better car or not. As with all such things, it's better than the BMW 3 in some ways, worse in others. Speaking for myself, I can't consider a Model 3 until the charging options are more readily available and quicker...it just wouldn't work for what I need a car for. It also needs a major interior overhaul...the big screen just looks wrong to me.

Camry has always been more comfortable and more reliable than anything Honda and Nissan has done. F150 has been the work horse in the field for decades. Yes, some people prefer Accord, some people prefer Altima, but overall, the best one is the Camry. Talk about wanting a door close solidly. Try a Camry.

As far as big screens. Have you seen latest spy shots from Stuttgart, or existing Audis? Sorry to burst that bubble.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Camry has always been more comfortable and more reliable than anything Honda and Nissan has done. F150 has been the work horse in the field for decades. Yes, some people prefer Accord, some people prefer Altima, but overall, the best one is the Camry. Talk about wanting a door close solidly. Try a Camry.

As far as big screens. Have you seen latest spy shots from Stuttgart, or existing Audis? Sorry to burst that bubble.

Truth. My wife's first car was a 1997 Lexus ES300 with 324,000 miles on it. She drove it for another 10,000 miles with no problems. It was basically just a glamorous Camry.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

The fact remains that the G20 has been on the losing end of virtually every comparison it’s been in with the Model 3.

Doesn’t mean that the Model 3 is right for everyone, but the critics and buying public have spoken, and they overwhelmingly prefer the Tesla overall.

Correction: The American main stream car journalists have chosen the model-3 over the g20.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Correction: The American main stream car journalists have chosen the model-3 over the g20.

Top Gear (UK) chose the Model 3 over the G20 in the link I posted previously.

There's also this:

https://www.caradvice.com.au/779800/...ance-review-2/

(And the reviewer ended up buying one.)

And Chris Harris, of UK's Top Gear concluded that the Model 3 has what it takes to sway buyers from the German Big Three sedans AND also tweeted that he planned to buy one.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top...-3-vs-rivals#1

It's not just US media, in other words.

[vladmury]

Rented a Model 3 LR AWD to see how it compares to my previous E90 and the G20 I tested from the dealer. I previously only had a 20 min test drive with Tesla so not much time to make an opinion.

Sorry to say this buy the only thing it does better than BMW is acceleration. And maybe technology with its centered screen although this is arguable .

The build quality is quite disappointing , worse than a Hyundai, its noisy on the highway , panel gaps are there in different places and top glass was misaligned. Paint seemed OK ( pearl white). Doors need to be smashed in order to close properly and sound cheap. Several times I had to reopen the door because it did not close properly. Looking around frameless doors there are made some weird choices in regards to door seals which you won't see at other legacy manufacturers.

Looked in the wheel arches and some clips are missing.

Seats are decent ( BMW sport seats are better) , center console was not rock solid when I tried to wiggle it.

I am supposed to receive my Model 3 Performance and now I am a bit disappointed. I think G20 is the better car, acceleration is enough and build quality is better. The driver position and layout make more sense for me.

Will though give Tesla a chance and might sell it later on if I wont like it after couple of months of ownership. Body gaps and alignments can be fixed but the noisy interior and cheap feeling of the materials cannot be fixed.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by vladmury

Rented a Model 3 LR AWD to see how it compares to my previous E90 and the G20 I tested from the dealer. I previously only had a 20 min test drive with Tesla so not much time to make an opinion.

Sorry to say this buy the only thing it does better than BMW is acceleration. And maybe technology with its centered screen although this is arguable .

The build quality is quite disappointing , worse than a Hyundai, its noisy on the highway , panel gaps are there in different places and top glass was misaligned. Paint seemed OK ( pearl white). Doors need to be smashed in order to close properly and sound cheap. Several times I had to reopen the door because it did not close properly. Looking around frameless doors there are made some weird choices in regards to door seals which you won't see at other legacy manufacturers.

Looked in the wheel arches and some clips are missing.

Seats are decent ( BMW sport seats are better) , center console was not rock solid when I tried to wiggle it.

I am supposed to receive my Model 3 Performance and now I am a bit disappointed. I think G20 is the better car, acceleration is enough and build quality is better. The driver position and layout make more sense for me.

Will though give Tesla a chance and might sell it later on if I wont like it after couple of months of ownership.

I believe Tesla gives you a 7-Day/1000 mile return period, hopefully within that range you can decide on whether you want to keep your Model 3.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by vladmury

...Doors need to be smashed in order to close properly and sound cheap. Several times I had to reopen the door because it did not close properly. Looking around frameless doors there are made some weird choices in regards to door seals which you won't see at other legacy manufacturers.

Were you maybe using the mechanical emergency door release lever when opening the door from the inside, rather than the electronic button near the top of the arm rest assembly? If so, the windows don't drop to clear the weatherstripping, which not only makes the doors harder to open and close, it can also damage the weatherstripping over time if done too much...

Originally Posted by vladmury

...center console was not rock solid when I tried to wiggle it.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. To me, the center console feels as solid as a rock, and the upholstered arm rest is really nice.

The gloss black plastic covers over the 2 center console bins are the cheapest parts of the interior trim. I wrapped/covered mine with a woodgrain wrap that matches the open-pore wood dash trim strip perfectly. Took 15 minutes, was very inexpensive and really classes up the overall cabin vibe. It looks OEM.

Hope you end up liking the 3 as much as 95+ of its owners do...

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by vladmury

Rented a Model 3 LR AWD to see how it compares to my previous E90 and the G20 I tested from the dealer. I previously only had a 20 min test drive with Tesla so not much time to make an opinion.

Sorry to say this buy the only thing it does better than BMW is acceleration. And maybe technology with its centered screen although this is arguable .

The build quality is quite disappointing , worse than a Hyundai, its noisy on the highway , panel gaps are there in different places and top glass was misaligned. Paint seemed OK ( pearl white). Doors need to be smashed in order to close properly and sound cheap. Several times I had to reopen the door because it did not close properly. Looking around frameless doors there are made some weird choices in regards to door seals which you won't see at other legacy manufacturers.

Looked in the wheel arches and some clips are missing.

Seats are decent ( BMW sport seats are better) , center console was not rock solid when I tried to wiggle it.

I am supposed to receive my Model 3 Performance and now I am a bit disappointed. I think G20 is the better car, acceleration is enough and build quality is better. The driver position and layout make more sense for me.

Will though give Tesla a chance and might sell it later on if I wont like it after couple of months of ownership. Body gaps and alignments can be fixed but the noisy interior and cheap feeling of the materials cannot be fixed.

Agreed, same impressions I had when I sat on one recently.