[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by psuibmw

Review aside, I liked how the car look from this camera angle ... it looked cool really

I never understood the criticism for the styling. BMW had to do something to modernize the car inside and out. The F30 was incredibly stale, really just a warmed over E90 inside and out with neutered driving dynamics and a plastic fantastic interior.

My only gripe with the styling of the G20 is how friggin huge it is.

[BMWRL]

The tool lid thing should have a picture of Doug Demuro on it instead of the wrench, cuz he's to total tool....

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by MT4life

You're starting to sound like a Transmission Racist.
Minority Majority. Tell that to Softsheen Carson that makes Dark and Lovely hair dye for African American women.
I vote to make 6MT Drivers a protected class so manufacturers have to produce products just for us. lol

The amount of braincells that I lost is ridiculous.You sound like you're 12. Put your common sense hat on, please.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Weird. I can confirm that my GTI does, and they're adjustable too.

I'd have sworn that our Q5 did too, but I rarely drive that thing, especially at night.

But this sort of silly logic does reek of VAG.

I do know that it's an additional cost option on Porsches, LED's are one price, and steering LED's are an additional cost.

GTI does have adaptive headlights. So does the new Tiguan. Not sure why VAG can't incorporate that into their higher end Audi models.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

You'd be correct if BMW was the ONLY manufacturer killing the manual.They're not. Others killed it off way before BMW ever did.

Same applies for wagons. Only Mercedes and Volvo in sell wagons in the premium market. I don't think the E wagon will be back next gen.

The manual is no longer cost efficient enough for them to R&D so it can handle torque and so it doesn't break, or so the gear shifts are smooth because a very small percentage of people bought them.

So for the most part I agree with you that the market drives demand and hence when sales dwindled than the business sense for manuals decreased as well. That said, the auto industry itself often drives the market and with less and less manufacturers making cars with a manual option lo and behold the "demand"went down. Basically it is a self defeating loop, the less you make of them the less people buy of them. On the flip side the auto industry has invented several segments we do not need (cross-overs, 4 door coupes) and the public has bought them up.

The ship has likely sailed for the regular 3 series based on this self defeating loop, but will hopefully live on in the M cars. The manual sales on the F80 were actually closer to 30% in North America and I think the M2 (original) was close to 50%.

Interesting article on Jalopnik in regards to wagons on the same topic, basically when a few new wagons popped up in a "market that doesn't buy them", sales increased.

https://jalopnik.com/strong-growth-i...o-i-1831561302

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

GTI does have adaptive headlights. So does the new Tiguan. Not sure why VAG can't incorporate that into their higher end Audi models.

I assume it's related to the EU features that they disable here. I'll check if I can OBD 11 them back into working. I do need to crank up the heated seat and steering wheel temps.

[jhall1957]

Originally Posted by MT4life

He meant over the outgoing 340 which has 320 (on paper)

Originally Posted by MT4life

He meant over the outgoing 340 which has 320 (on paper)

Now that makes more sense!

[DCG]

How's the fit and finish? How's the build quality? How's the Mexican Made 3 Series overall craftsmanship?

I'm very concerned about the future reliability of this iconic car. I have seen what has happened to the VW Mexican made Jetta's reliability, it's total crap. Only time will tell here in States and Canada.

[DCG]

How's the fit and finish? How's the build quality? How's the Mexican Made 3 Series overall craftsmanship?

I'm very concerned about the future reliability of this iconic car. I have seen what has happened to the VW Mexican made Jetta's reliability, it's total crap. Only time will tell here in States and Canada.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I started becoming suspicious when he posted a glowing review of the new Acura NSX, a car that is by all accounts a major disappointment. Forget about the price, the car's performance credentials (or lack thereof) have been panned universally by the press.

I have been following his channel since the beginning, before it blew up. And that's when I really felt he sold himself out because it was pure BS.

CAR magazine which is probably more influential (with Europe and Asian manufacturers ) then any North America auto review outfit, has a very good review of the NSX, it’s the interior design that gets panned.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Pic18

So for the most part I agree with you that the market drives demand and hence when sales dwindled than the business sense for manuals decreased as well. That said, the auto industry itself often drives the market and with less and less manufacturers making cars with a manual option lo and behold the "demand" went down. Basically it is a self defeating loop, the less you make of them the less people buy of them. On the flip side the auto industry has invented several segments we do not need (cross-overs, 4 door coupes) and the public has bought them up.

The ship has likely sailed for the regular 3 series based on this self defeating loop, but will hopefully live on in the M cars. The manual sales on the F80 were actually closer to 30% in North America and I think the M2 (original) was close to 50%.

Interesting article on Jalopnik in regards to wagons on the same topic, basically when a few new wagons popped up in a "market that doesn't buy them", sales increased.

https://jalopnik.com/strong-growth-i...o-i-1831561302

I don't understand. If the market demands a product, why would a company not supply that product? That's like saying Apple will intentionally sell less iPhones on purpose to people because they're going to lower production. I'm confused.

The auto does also come with benefits for MPG figures, so I can see why they'd want to lower manual transmissions. You also can't have an autonomous manual car. With this big push for autonomy and the like, I can somewhat see why they'd lower the production on the manual transmission.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

The amount of braincells that I lost is ridiculous.You sound like you're 12. Put your common sense hat on, please.

The fact that you're taking everything seriously is entertaining.
I don't think you can afford to

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

I don't understand. If the market demands a product, why would a company not supply that product? That's like saying Apple will intentionally sell less iPhones on purpose to people because they're going to lower production. I'm confused.

The auto does also come with benefits for MPG figures, so I can see why they'd want to lower manual transmissions. You also can't have an autonomous manual car. With this big push for autonomy and the like, I can somewhat see why they'd lower the production on the manual transmission.

Market demand is not the sole driving force. As an ex-product planner, I can share that the primary issue is understanding the capacity of the assembly plant and developing the lowest cost plan that keeps it full with maximum margin products. Additional demand beyond capacity cannot be fulfilled, and any investment to create product variations must be rationalized in a business case as to whether they improve, deteriorate, or have no effect on the overall profitability. If BMW believes they can sell every automatic vehicle they can build, there is no incentive to spend the tens of millions needed to develop the manual trans version, subject prototypes to testing, and incur the costs of inventory management. Those vehicles would simply be substitutional volume, and unless a margin improvement more than offsets the the incremental investment, it will likely not be approved.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Market demand is not the sole driving force. As an ex-product planner, I can share that the primary issue is understanding the capacity of the assembly plant and developing a plan which keeps it full with maximum margin products. Additional demand beyond capacity cannot be fulfilled, and any investment to create product variations must be rationalized in a business case as to whether they improve, deteriorate, or have no effect on the overall profitability. If BMW believes they can sell every automatic vehicle they can build, there is no incentive to spend the tens of millions needed to develop the manual trans version, subject prototypes to testing, and incur the costs of inventory management. Those vehicles would simply be substitutional volume, and unless a margin improvement more than offsets the the incremental investment, it will likely not be approved.

This actually makes a lot of sense, thank you.
Unlike "get it through your head, they just don't sell" idiotic comments from ex salesmen.
They don't sell because your New Car Manager didn't order them because he knew he could sell automatic instead. And that goes along with the explanation provided by Sportstick.

I do have a serious question to your point. What possessed BMW to make ugly cars such as x1 x2 x4 x6. Who do they compete with? Wouldn't they just sell more X3 and X5 to your point?
I'm not familiar with all of the fake-SUV competition out there so I'm asking.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Staszek

Completely agree here!

We vote with our wallets, and not enough people bought manuals for it to be worth the cost of them developing them.

If there was a 20-30% uptake in Manual purchases they would still make them.

The "Barbaric stick" as Alec Issigonis used to accurately describe the manual transmission is a piece of technology that should stay in the 20th century along with carburetors, chokes and any other manner of outdated and outlived automotive technology.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by MT4life

The fact that you're taking everything seriously is entertaining.
I don't think you can afford to

Confirmed, you're 12 years old.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Market demand is not the sole driving force. As an ex-product planner, I can share that the primary issue is understanding the capacity of the assembly plant and developing the lowest cost plan that keeps it full with maximum margin products. Additional demand beyond capacity cannot be fulfilled, and any investment to create product variations must be rationalized in a business case as to whether they improve, deteriorate, or have no effect on the overall profitability. If BMW believes they can sell every automatic vehicle they can build, there is no incentive to spend the tens of millions needed to develop the manual trans version, subject prototypes to testing, and incur the costs of inventory management. Those vehicles would simply be substitutional volume, and unless a margin improvement more than offsets the the incremental investment, it will likely not be approved.

Doesn't BMW plan out how much of what to allocate to each in advance?

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by MT4life

This actually makes a lot of sense, thank you.
Unlike "get it through your head, they just don't sell" idiotic comments from ex salesmen.
They don't sell because your New Car Manager didn't order them because he knew he could sell automatic instead. And that goes along with the explanation provided by Sportstick.

I do have a serious question to your point. What possessed BMW to make ugly cars such as x1 x2 x4 x6. Who do they compete with? Wouldn't they just sell more X3 and X5 to your point?
I'm not familiar with all of the fake-SUV competition out there so I'm asking.

Judging by the sheer amount of X-Series BMW CUVs and SUVs somebody really wants them and willing to pay top $$$ for each and everyone of them. The X series manufactured in Spartanburg plan, SC are decidedly the cash cows of the BMW Group.

While I am not a fan of that type of vehicle (Don't necessarily like the aesthetics, high center of gravity and fake claims of practicality where the much despised Minivan is truly practical when it comes to hauling people and cargo in comfort) they do pay the bills for the vehicles that interest me and those focused towards the hardcore enthusiast set.

You have to understand the beauty of the SUV concept. Sheer mediocrity in design, packaging and handling. High profit margins built into each and everyone of them. They sell every single one they make. From the stand point of the manufacturers, what's not to love?

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

Doesn't BMW plan out how much of what to allocate to each in advance?

They use "Just in time" production and manufacturing techniques.

Very interesting stuff actually...

https://www.industryweek.com/global-...acturing-model

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by DCG

How's the fit and finish? How's the build quality? How's the Mexican Made 3 Series overall craftsmanship?

I'm very concerned about the future reliability of this iconic car. I have seen what has happened to the VW Mexican made Jetta's reliability, it's total crap. Only time will tell here in States and Canada.

I have more faith in BMW keeping very close tabs on their production and product quality standards on their network plants around the world than anything coming out of the Volkswagen Group, VAG seems to struggle maintaining standards between plants.

Lest not forget that BMW's first overseas plant was opened in 1973 in Pretoria, South Africa. Plant Rosslyn has one of the highest quality ratings among all plants in the BMW Group network. They produced the 3-Series for 4 decades until 2018 when production switched to the X3.

My late E90 was made in South Africa and its build quality, assembly and attention to detail were impeccable. You could not tell that car had in fact being assembled in a facility near Johannesburg.

Time will tell if the standards will be similar from G20s coming out of the San Luis Potosí BMW plant in Mexico. I am confident that product quality will be just as good as any other BMW manufactured in German soil or elsewhere.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

I don't understand. If the market demands a product, why would a company not supply that product? That's like saying Apple will intentionally sell less iPhones on purpose to people because they're going to lower production. I'm confused.

The auto does also come with benefits for MPG figures, so I can see why they'd want to lower manual transmissions. You also can't have an autonomous manual car. With this big push for autonomy and the like, I can somewhat see why they'd lower the production on the manual transmission.

I think you missed the point where I stated the Auto Industry often drives the market, not the consumer (at least at first). The proliferation of 4 door coupes is a great example. There was no actual need for a sedan with a slopping roof, as beyond style there is limited to no benefit over a comparable sedan. But one ambitious auto maker tried to give it a shot as an attempt to cut a niche into the pie and take customers away from another. The customer didn't exactly demand or ask for it (at first), but once available they bought it and other company's jumped on board and as supply increased so did demand. So yes in the end the market has made a case for "grand Coupes", and a manufacturer would be stupid not to make one, but the initial demand/supply was driven by the industry and not from customers.

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by MT4life

Since when are we supposed to apply business acumen on an automotive enthusiast forum?
Take off your sales hat - you don't work there anymore

It doesn't make any "business sense" to drive any of these cars when a Corolla and Camry will get you to work in the same amount of time with AC and a radio

if you don't understand what you're talking about then you should refrain from speaking publicly on a forum where you will embarrass yourself. unless you like public humiliation and if hiding behind a screen makes you feel safe then more power to you. this is directed at the people who don't have business sense, but make those comments.

the main issue on these forums for MANY years has been that people don't realize this forum makes up a SMALL FRACTION of bmw buyers. you want lightweight cars, but the rest of the people who want these cars for whatever reason actually don't care about anything we want. hence why we have this wonderful forum. no one wants a manual. would you offer a product if only 1% of your customer base wants that specific product? it is actually basic business sense ahhaha the 1% is an example, but you get my point.