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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) DCT or Traditional AT?

View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 169 61.01%
I prefer a traditional AT. 22 7.94%
Either is fine with me. 31 11.19%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 55 19.86%
Voters: 277. You may not vote on this poll

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      11-25-2019, 08:16 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by B3averFan View Post
CPO. Maybe you've heard of it?

A couple year old 911 can go for around $80k.

Just saying.
That works easiest for M4 owners. Many need 4 doors and, for me, the M3 is the only car that ticks all the right boxes. Maybe a used RS6 Avant if the G80 doesn't pan out, I'm keeping the F80 for a while anyway. We'll see I suppose, I'm hopeful it will be a great car.
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      11-27-2019, 03:00 PM   #178
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Yeah me to.

I'll be switching to a 911.
I don't understand how people say this so flippantly like the cars are the same price.

A perfectly optioned F82 M4 costs $80k before taxes.
A perfectly optioned Carrera S costs $130k before taxes.

That is a HUGE price difference.
It's pretty simple.

BMW was chosen not because of price but because it ticked more boxes.

The DCT is one big box that will now go unticked.
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      11-28-2019, 12:33 PM   #179
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Not the big grill, not the lack of interesting (to me) launch colors...not the lack of AWD + manual....none of those things have disappointed me.

But the lack of DCT is personally my biggest disappointment. Not enough to not get it, mind you, but a disappointment none the same. Seems like BMW is trying to make this car a GT in the near future.
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      11-28-2019, 10:39 PM   #180
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Has anyone seen a video that shows what @apascutia wrote?
Jason Cammisa (great automotive journalist) on Instagram commented that he felt the powertrain in the X3M felt laggy. Other journalists are saying that it's easy to catch it off guard if it's in manual mode at a lower RPM. The turbo lag is very apparent if that's done. Don't quote me on this, but I heard it's because they upped the boost in the turbochargers and reduced the compression ratio. It might be tuned differently in the M3, though. I personally think that this engine sounds fantastic in comparison to the S55. Sounds much more natural. I'm greatly anticipating this new M3!
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      11-29-2019, 12:06 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apascutia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loma View Post
Has anyone seen a video that shows what @apascutia wrote?
Jason Cammisa (great automotive journalist) on Instagram commented that he felt the powertrain in the X3M felt laggy. Other journalists are saying that it's easy to catch it off guard if it's in manual mode at a lower RPM. The turbo lag is very apparent if that's done. Don't quote me on this, but I heard it's because they upped the boost in the turbochargers and reduced the compression ratio. It might be tuned differently in the M3, though. I personally think that this engine sounds fantastic in comparison to the S55. Sounds much more natural. I'm greatly anticipating this new M3!
If I wanted a great sounding engine with a mediocre gearbox and average driving dynamics I'd pick a C63.

Sorry but there are zero positives that come with a ZF box on the iconic M3 - except to BMWs bottom line.
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      11-29-2019, 01:08 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by apascutia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loma View Post
Has anyone seen a video that shows what @apascutia wrote?
Jason Cammisa (great automotive journalist) on Instagram commented that he felt the powertrain in the X3M felt laggy. Other journalists are saying that it's easy to catch it off guard if it's in manual mode at a lower RPM. The turbo lag is very apparent if that's done. Don't quote me on this, but I heard it's because they upped the boost in the turbochargers and reduced the compression ratio. It might be tuned differently in the M3, though. I personally think that this engine sounds fantastic in comparison to the S55. Sounds much more natural. I'm greatly anticipating this new M3!
If I wanted a great sounding engine with a mediocre gearbox and average driving dynamics I'd pick a C63.

Sorry but there are zero positives that come with a ZF box on the iconic M3 - except to BMWs bottom line.
The strong counter point you are missing is the significant improvement in around town drivability that the zf brings over dct. (Where these cars generally spend most of their lives) The only real question is actual track performance, If the lap times would be the same with either transmission it's hard to make a good argument for dct. I haven't seen any strong data points that a dct would drive a measurable laptime improvement over the zfat.

Dct leads zfat in "because racecar" feel and swagger for sure. Which in all fairness does matter to some but I doubt bmw felt that the case was compelling especially with the manual available for the traditionalist.
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      11-29-2019, 01:15 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by apascutia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loma View Post
Has anyone seen a video that shows what @apascutia wrote?
Jason Cammisa (great automotive journalist) on Instagram commented that he felt the powertrain in the X3M felt laggy. Other journalists are saying that it's easy to catch it off guard if it's in manual mode at a lower RPM. The turbo lag is very apparent if that's done. Don't quote me on this, but I heard it's because they upped the boost in the turbochargers and reduced the compression ratio. It might be tuned differently in the M3, though. I personally think that this engine sounds fantastic in comparison to the S55. Sounds much more natural. I'm greatly anticipating this new M3!
If I wanted a great sounding engine with a mediocre gearbox and average driving dynamics I'd pick a C63.

Sorry but there are zero positives that come with a ZF box on the iconic M3 - except to BMWs bottom line.
The strong counter point you are missing is the significant improvement in around town drivability that the zf brings over dct. (Where these cars generally spend most of their lives) The only real question is actual track performance, If the lap times would be the same with either transmission it's hard to make a good argument for dct. I haven't seen any strong data points that a dct would drive a measurable laptime improvement over the zfat.

Dct leads zfat in "because racecar" feel and swagger for sure. Which in all fairness does matter to some but I doubt bmw felt that the case was compelling especially with the manual available for the traditionalist.
This is precisely the reason I picked this car over the better sounding better interior C63.

I've never driven a ZF gearbox I liked. They always lag on the paddles.

There is a very good reason almost all Supercars have a DCT.

There is also a very good reason AMG has stuck with a DCT in the A45. The gearbox has to match the character of the car. While it makes sense in an M5 it detracts from the whole dynamic package that an M3 should be.
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      11-29-2019, 03:10 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
This is precisely the reason I picked this car over the better sounding better interior C63.

I've never driven a ZF gearbox I liked. They always lag on the paddles.

There is a very good reason almost all Supercars have a DCT.

There is also a very good reason AMG has stuck with a DCT in the A45. The gearbox has to match the character of the car. While it makes sense in an M5 it detracts from the whole dynamic package that an M3 should be.
With the M2 now firmly and successfully incorporated into the M lineup I think us old geysers who were there at the start need to let go of the M3 character as it was conceived and think of it more as a car covering the right edge of the classic M3 character to the left edge of the M5 on a track car scale. The sweet spot of the original M3 is now M2 territory and the M3/M4 is now a trackable GT car instead of a street legal track car.

Is the latest ZF8 a step to far right on the scale? Hard to argue when an MT is available in the M3 and the M2 still offer the DCT. If BMW replace the DCT in the M2 with a ZF8 I can without reservations join the outrage. A ZF8 has no place in an M2, ever.

Last edited by solstice; 11-29-2019 at 03:19 AM..
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      11-29-2019, 03:12 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
This is precisely the reason I picked this car over the better sounding better interior C63.

I've never driven a ZF gearbox I liked. They always lag on the paddles.

There is a very good reason almost all Supercars have a DCT.

There is also a very good reason AMG has stuck with a DCT in the A45. The gearbox has to match the character of the car. While it makes sense in an M5 it detracts from the whole dynamic package that an M3 should be.
With the M2 now firmly and successfully incorporated into the M lineup I think us old geysers who were there need to let go of the M3 character as it was conceived and think of it more as a car covering the right edge of the M3 to the left edge of the M5 on a track car scale. The sweet spot of the original M3 is now M2 territory and the M3/M4 is now a trackable GT car instead of a street legal track car.
Perhaps - but the sad the thing is the M2 won't keep its DCT in the next generation.
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      11-29-2019, 03:22 AM   #186
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Perhaps - but the sad the thing is the M2 won't keep its DCT in the next generation.
I edited my comment and as you can see I wholeheartedly agree with you in any discontent when/if the M2 switch to ZF8.
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      11-29-2019, 07:54 PM   #187
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I've driven the M2C and X3M back to back. While the size between the two is different comparing just the shift characteristics, the DCT in the M2 is far superior. It is definitely quicker and more definitive with the way it shifts. I always prefer a manual but I'd choose DCT everyday over the ZF if I had to chose. Those who say it's the "same" speed either haven't driven them back to back or don't know what they're talking about. Some may be able to live with the slower ZF due to "comfort" but this always amuses me. Go get a M340i or M240i, etc. if you're concerned about comfort.
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      11-29-2019, 08:10 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
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The X3M Comp obviously doesn't give any clues about steering feel (tractor tires!), but I can safely say that power delivery is *way* less linear than my F82.

Wait ... wait... wait..... whoosh ... revlimiter.

This is why it's really hard to drive using the paddles - 8 spd auto means close ratios and you really have to keep on top of the shift timing. Lose the boost and you're in a world of pain. Plus the lag on downshifts is a nightmare.
I've not driven the X3M/X4M but I'm not liking the sound of this. BMW revolutionized the high power FI engine with the N54. High compression rate, low boost with dual small turbos that spun up quickly. The result was an FI engine with quick response and healthy power bump.

They managed to lift the power with 50% from there culminating in the M3CS engine and retain those characteristics

If this was the limit for the 3l I6 with no compromises and to reach 500+ hp it was needed to decrease compression and increase shovel size (inertia/lag) that's not worth it. Then the engine need more displacement or power should have remained on S55 level IMO.

And yes, an AT can hide much of the lag as it did back in the 80s when huge lag was rampant in FI engines.
This is exactly what they're attempting to cover up. It's disappointing but they're afraid to go their own way on with building a lighter car and minimal power increases. The ZF definitely covers up the higher boost more.
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      11-30-2019, 01:10 AM   #189
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Perhaps - but the sad the thing is the M2 won't keep its DCT in the next generation.
What makes you so certain that it won’t? That would be a stupid decision.
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      11-30-2019, 01:19 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
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Perhaps - but the sad the thing is the M2 won't keep its DCT in the next generation.
What makes you so certain that it won't? That would be a stupid decision.
Cost cutting.

The entire line will have the same automatic gearbox eventually.

Except perhaps if the develop a halo car - out the reach of almost all of us.

As far as stupid goes - have you seen the new grill designs? BMW is capable of being very stupid. If they put a slush box in the M3 it's game over for me and many others.
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      11-30-2019, 02:29 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Cost cutting.

The entire line will have the same automatic gearbox eventually.

Except perhaps if the develop a halo car - out the reach of almost all of us.

As far as stupid goes - have you seen the new grill designs? BMW is capable of being very stupid. If they put a slush box in the M3 it's game over for me and many others.
There is no IF. The automatic M3 is a certainty.
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      11-30-2019, 02:31 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
This is exactly what they're attempting to cover up. It's disappointing but they're afraid to go their own way on with building a lighter car and minimal power increases. The ZF definitely covers up the higher boost more.
If BMW built a lighter car with modest power improvements, people still wouldn't be happy. The company is in a lose/lose situation when it comes to the smaller, forum-based enthusiast group. If the car was lighter with a modest increase in power, people would complain about how the Mercedes or [insert other manufacturer here] is producing a car with a serious horsepower advantage despite being heavier. People will always find something to complain about.
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      11-30-2019, 04:13 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
This is exactly what they're attempting to cover up. It's disappointing but they're afraid to go their own way on with building a lighter car and minimal power increases. The ZF definitely covers up the higher boost more.
If BMW built a lighter car with modest power improvements, people still wouldn't be happy. The company is in a lose/lose situation when it comes to the smaller, forum-based enthusiast group. If the car was lighter with a modest increase in power, people would complain about how the Mercedes or [insert other manufacturer here] is producing a car with a serious horsepower advantage despite being heavier. People will always find something to complain about.
Agree.

If Mercedes can manage to put a DCT in an A class AMG hatch surely BMW can put DCT into its most iconic M car?

They won't primarily for cost reasons and It's a shame.

This new car Will Definitely suit those that chase drag strip quarter mile times. That doesn't interest me though.
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      11-30-2019, 06:49 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
This is exactly what they're attempting to cover up. It's disappointing but they're afraid to go their own way on with building a lighter car and minimal power increases. The ZF definitely covers up the higher boost more.
If BMW built a lighter car with modest power improvements, people still wouldn't be happy. The company is in a lose/lose situation when it comes to the smaller, forum-based enthusiast group. If the car was lighter with a modest increase in power, people would complain about how the Mercedes or [insert other manufacturer here] is producing a car with a serious horsepower advantage despite being heavier. People will always find something to complain about.
Agree.

If Mercedes can manage to put a DCT in an A class AMG hatch surely BMW can put DCT into its most iconic M car?

They won't primarily for cost reasons and It's a shame.

This new car Will Definitely suit those that chase drag strip quarter mile times. That doesn't interest me though.
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
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      11-30-2019, 08:35 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
The cold fact is that it just doesn't.

BMW had perfect transmission called M-DCT and if they are phasing out on the purest M variants just for cost cutting, there is no future for this company. At least not for M division.
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      11-30-2019, 09:43 AM   #196
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's likely that Mercedes will eventually kill their DCT offerings as well. If their DCT is outshined by BMW's automatic, will the fact that they offer DCT really matters that much?!?!
The cold fact is that it just doesn't.

BMW had perfect transmission called M-DCT and if they are phasing out on the purest M variants just for cost cutting, there is no future for this company. At least not for M division.
Maybe no future in the eyes of us enthusiasts. However, for every one of us they lose they will—most likely— gain even more non-auto enthusiasts. BMW is going for a more broadly appealing car that uses shared tech. They get the benefit of lower costs and attracting buyers who may not like the behavior of the M-DCT.

I would like to say I will leave BMW when the G80 comes out with no DCT but the truth is, where would I go? It's either going to be phased out by competitors (Mercedes) or already has been (Audi & Alfa).
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      11-30-2019, 10:54 AM   #197
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BMW is going for a more broadly appealing car that uses shared tech. They get the benefit of lower costs and attracting buyers who may not like the behavior of the M-DCT.
There have *always* been many of those customers. They used to be the people who bought a 335i saying "it's just as good as an M3" and if they couldn't tell the difference then that was just fine ... now they buy an M340i, M350i whatever.

The M cars were supposed to have rough edges ("mummy, my DCT is not smooth enough!") and compromised comfort in exchange for superior handling and performance that enthusiasts appreciated. They cost more because the potential market was smaller.

If BMW isn't going to do that any more, then they should be honest about it and, cancel the M3 and tell everybody that the mass market "M350ixs+" is the car they should want.

That's the logical conclusion of the "forum enthusiasts are only a tiny part of the market" argument (that inevitably follows every post like this).

Personally, I'm shopping for extended warranties right now, hoping that something better will eventually appear.

Last edited by pbar; 11-30-2019 at 11:00 AM..
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      11-30-2019, 01:01 PM   #198
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There have *always* been many of those customers. They used to be the people who bought a 335i saying "it's just as good as an M3" and if they couldn't tell the difference then that was just fine ... now they buy an M340i, M350i whatever.

The M cars were supposed to have rough edges ("mummy, my DCT is not smooth enough!") and compromised comfort in exchange for superior handling and performance that enthusiasts appreciated. They cost more because the potential market was smaller.

If BMW isn't going to do that any more, then they should be honest about it and, cancel the M3 and tell everybody that the mass market "M350ixs+" is the car they should want.

That's the logical conclusion of the "forum enthusiasts are only a tiny part of the market" argument (that inevitably follows every post like this).

Personally, I'm shopping for extended warranties right now, hoping that something better will eventually appear.
While I agree with how the ZF changes the character of the car vs. the DCT I disagree with that it becomes just a faster MXX(X)i car. My experience is that the true M cars are built to a very different standard in terms of endurance, cooling, strength, quality and they are tuned much more meticulously in chassis/suspension/steering.
It’s a similar difference between buying an M performance car and a true M as it is between buying an Audi and a Porsche. The price difference between a real M and a non does not nearly reflect the superior products the M cars are vs. MXXXi cars.

And at the current size and practicality of the M3 I believe there is a sizable market who want all of that with a smoother gearbox. If you look at the lineup of M these days it’s not a lineup of track cars with compromised comfort, it’s a high end sub brand of BMW building better cars with sporty ambitions. The smallest cars retain some of the original M car’s track ambitions while the larger cars do not. The M3 is now having one foot on each side. An MT and a ZF make at least some sense.

Last edited by solstice; 11-30-2019 at 01:28 PM..
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