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View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 235 60.57%
I prefer a traditional AT. 32 8.25%
Either is fine with me. 53 13.66%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 68 17.53%
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-24-2019, 02:37 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Yep. 8 speed ZFs are terrible. Remind me of every ordinary autobox ever made. I'm not a huge fan of DCT either BUT they're not terrible—-there is a certain satisfaction to their mechanics and level of detail.

Don't give a crap about "shift speed". Care more about how things feel. ZF feels like garbage. DCT is a good compromise. Manual is the real deal.
Talking about "Shift speed", rather than responsiveness is part of the problem. People who have never driven a DCT in 'manual' mode aren't even aware how annoying it is to have lag between a paddle input and a gear change.

An M-DCT box is marketed as an "automated manual" - i consider it a fly-by-wire version of a manual transmission where I don't need to use levers and pushrods to make something happen, and the mechanical parts move a lot faster. I don't need to take my hand off the steering wheel and waggle one foot around in the air to feel driver engagement.

BUT... driver engagement depends crucially on the fact that my input timings matter. When I want to downshift, it has to happen now.

So, can we please try to get away from the 6MT "purists" saying "if I don't use a stick then all auto transmissions are the same" and "the ZF changes gear really fast and smooth". That's basically irrelevant to me.

I am prepared to hope that M-division includes some test drivers who feel the same way I do. Perhaps they will tweak the ZFat to be more responsive to inputs than all existing incarnations. If not, I'll be looking elsewhere.
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      07-24-2019, 02:41 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
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Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
Honestly, with the options being Auto or 6MT, I think they're going to see more manual sales than the F80 did. Still an auto, still a torque converter. Less crisp than a DCT and therefore may push more people over towards a 3 pedal set up.
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
It's cheaper that's why they do it. I'm not saying the ZF isn't a good gearbox but it's not a DCT. Driven the best versions of both and it's clear which is superior. ZF is more comfortable and all but the DCT is more precise and aggressive.
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      07-24-2019, 03:02 PM   #113
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Its quicker and more responsive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
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      07-24-2019, 03:04 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
It's cheaper that's why they do it. I'm not saying the ZF isn't a good gearbox but it's not a DCT. Driven the best versions of both and it's clear which is superior. ZF is more comfortable and all but the DCT is more precise and aggressive.
This.

The quest to make more money. Hell, the DCT in the F8x was from the M5.
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      07-24-2019, 03:07 PM   #115
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The torque now would kill a DCT quick. Couldn't handle the 460WTQ in my SC E92 without upgrades and the ZF in my F90 is quicker and more precise than the DCT in my M4GTS. Just my personal comparison. Also the ZF comes in with less weight. Not sure about your "cheaper" claim but lots of speculation out there. I do agree that the DCT is more aggressive, because it is mechanical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
It's cheaper that's why they do it. I'm not saying the ZF isn't a good gearbox but it's not a DCT. Driven the best versions of both and it's clear which is superior. ZF is more comfortable and all but the DCT is more precise and aggressive.
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      07-24-2019, 03:23 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
The torque now would kill a DCT quick. Couldn't handle the 460WTQ in my SC E92 without upgrades and the ZF in my F90 is quicker and more precise than the DCT in my M4GTS. Just my personal comparison. Also the ZF comes in with less weight. Not sure about your "cheaper" claim but lots of speculation out there. I do agree that the DCT is more aggressive, because it is mechanical.
Tell that to the guys who just built the Corvette C8 w almost 500lbs of torque. The "DCT cant handle the tq" argument isnt a valid reason anymore.
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      07-24-2019, 03:31 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrm396 View Post
Tell that to the guys who just built the Corvette C8 w almost 500lbs of torque. The "DCT cant handle the tq" argument isnt a valid reason anymore.
I think the BMW DCT can't handle the torque. BMW doesn't want to spend money on developing a new DCT to handle the torque so they went with the ZF.
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      07-24-2019, 05:52 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
Its quicker and more responsive.
I don't know if this is a fair comparison but I've driven an M4 DCT and an Alfa Quad with the ZF and the Quad felt a tad quicker to me. Maybe it was just me, but I honestly did not feel the DCT better in anyway or worse..fairly even maybe a hair to the Quad.
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      07-24-2019, 06:23 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
Honestly, with the options being Auto or 6MT, I think they're going to see more manual sales than the F80 did. Still an auto, still a torque converter. Less crisp than a DCT and therefore may push more people over towards a 3 pedal set up.
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
To save money for bullshit electric cars
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      07-24-2019, 08:57 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpxchewy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrm396 View Post
Tell that to the guys who just built the Corvette C8 w almost 500lbs of torque. The "DCT cant handle the tq" argument isnt a valid reason anymore.
I think the BMW DCT can't handle the torque. BMW doesn't want to spend money on developing a new DCT to handle the torque so they went with the ZF.
Right, so a DCT in principal CAN handle it and if bmw just doesn't wanna spend the money to either buy one or develop one themselves that's diff than blatantly saying DCTs in general can't handle it. Just sayin this is bmw choice, theyre not limited by engineering
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      07-24-2019, 09:53 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
The torque now would kill a DCT quick. Couldn't handle the 460WTQ in my SC E92 without upgrades and the ZF in my F90 is quicker and more precise than the DCT in my M4GTS. Just my personal comparison. Also the ZF comes in with less weight. Not sure about your "cheaper" claim but lots of speculation out there. I do agree that the DCT is more aggressive, because it is mechanical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
It's cheaper that's why they do it. I'm not saying the ZF isn't a good gearbox but it's not a DCT. Driven the best versions of both and it's clear which is superior. ZF is more comfortable and all but the DCT is more precise and aggressive.
Agree 100%. Drove M2 Competition and M5 Competition back to back. ZF8 was faster, more responsive, and smoother in all situations. I think all those who claim DCT is superior either haven't given the ZF a chance or they are in denial that something could ever be better than a dual-clutch auto. DCT isn't even close to what Porsche's PDK offers and IMO not as well-rounded as the ZF option. Really doesn't surprise me that BMW is giving up on further developing the DCT.
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      07-25-2019, 01:14 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrm396 View Post
Right, so a DCT in principal CAN handle it and if bmw just doesn't wanna spend the money to either buy one or develop one themselves that's diff than blatantly saying DCTs in general can't handle it. Just sayin this is bmw choice, theyre not limited by engineering
Precisely. The move to an automatic was a cost saving move IMHO.
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      07-25-2019, 01:17 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
The torque now would kill a DCT quick. Couldn't handle the 460WTQ in my SC E92 without upgrades and the ZF in my F90 is quicker and more precise than the DCT in my M4GTS. Just my personal comparison. Also the ZF comes in with less weight. Not sure about your "cheaper" claim but lots of speculation out there. I do agree that the DCT is more aggressive, because it is mechanical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
It's cheaper that's why they do it. I'm not saying the ZF isn't a good gearbox but it's not a DCT. Driven the best versions of both and it's clear which is superior. ZF is more comfortable and all but the DCT is more precise and aggressive.
Agree 100%. Drove M2 Competition and M5 Competition back to back. ZF8 was faster, more responsive, and smoother in all situations. I think all those who claim DCT is superior either haven't given the ZF a chance or they are in denial that something could ever be better than a dual-clutch auto. DCT isn't even close to what Porsche's PDK offers and IMO not as well-rounded as the ZF option. Really doesn't surprise me that BMW is giving up on further developing the DCT.
Not sure I agree with you. Again, straight line acceleration isn't the only thing in the world. I compared an M5 to my departed F80 comp with DCT. I much preferred the DCT. That is not to say that the ZF8 wasn't good, I just liked the faster shifts and more visceral feel of the DCT.
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      07-25-2019, 01:29 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by cpxchewy View Post
I think the BMW DCT can't handle the torque. BMW doesn't want to spend money on developing a new DCT to handle the torque so they went with the ZF.
not true at all. The F1x M5 and M6 cars came with a 600ps engine with 516lbft of torque. The G8x will not have more torque than that!
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      07-25-2019, 01:35 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
The torque now would kill a DCT quick. Couldn't handle the 460WTQ in my SC E92 without upgrades and the ZF in my F90 is quicker and more precise than the DCT in my M4GTS. Just my personal comparison. Also the ZF comes in with less weight. Not sure about your "cheaper" claim but lots of speculation out there. I do agree that the DCT is more aggressive, because it is mechanical.
As per my other post, the F1x M5 and M6 cars came with a 575ps engine with 500lbft of torque in a 6MT and 600ps, 516lbft with the DCT

Plenty of people have put up dynos of them making more than 500lbft at the wheels, such as this (first in google, I didn't bother to look if this is a high or low dyno)

https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1204708

The DCT in the E9x had different ratios and IIRC was rated at 450nm torque. In the F1x and F8x it is rated at 700nm
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      07-25-2019, 01:41 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
The torque now would kill a DCT quick. Couldn't handle the 460WTQ in my SC E92 without upgrades and the ZF in my F90 is quicker and more precise than the DCT in my M4GTS. Just my personal comparison. Also the ZF comes in with less weight. Not sure about your "cheaper" claim but lots of speculation out there. I do agree that the DCT is more aggressive, because it is mechanical.
As per my other post, the F1x M5 and M6 cars came with a 575ps engine with 500lbft of torque in a 6MT and 600ps, 516lbft with the DCT

Plenty of people have put up dynos of them making more than 500lbft at the wheels, such as this (first in google, I didn't bother to look if this is a high or low dyno)

https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1204708

The DCT in the E9x had different ratios and IIRC was rated at 450nm torque. In the F1x and F8x it is rated at 700nm
Very good
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      07-25-2019, 09:25 PM   #127
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The difference is enough that I don't think I would buy a zf8 vehicle in the future. Just got a loaner with a zf8 and I don't like the way it feels when it shifts, it has this odd feeling I'm not sure how to describe that makes the car feel like it sort of lurches in a strange way. The down shifts were slow. It doesn't really feel mechanical. I don't like it. The DCT feels crisp. I know you're rolling you eyes, but keep in mind the general public rolls their eyes when someone complains the MT is less available now and will be gone some day.
Yep. 8 speed ZFs are terrible. Remind me of every ordinary autobox ever made. I'm not a huge fan of DCT either BUT they're not terrible—-there is a certain satisfaction to their mechanics and level of detail.

Don't give a crap about "shift speed". Care more about how things feel. ZF feels like garbage. DCT is a good compromise. Manual is the real deal.
Please. As a manual diehard, the ZF 8HP is eons better than the slush boxes of yesteryear. If you can't tell or understand the mechanical differences, then you are either completely numb or just being hyperbolic. In my wife's car, if you throw the trans into Manual mode and the car into Sport+, the car will bang out shifts pretty hard under full throttle.
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      07-26-2019, 04:42 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
Honestly, with the options being Auto or 6MT, I think they're going to see more manual sales than the F80 did. Still an auto, still a torque converter. Less crisp than a DCT and therefore may push more people over towards a 3 pedal set up.
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
To save money. Production costs are reduced my running the same auto transmission across the the models.

Ever wonder why Supercars have DCTs almost exclusively ?
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      07-26-2019, 05:22 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
I didn't want to write this because it may give BMW marketing unnecessary ideas, but here's what happened the past few years.

2008: Remember how BMW boasted the shit out of consistent less-than-60ms shifting speed of M-DCT back in 2008? They now advertise ZF transmission in M5 as "M sport step-tronic 8 speed automatic transmission" without any of those performance adjectives.
Quite odd for M that likes to boast other technologies like M-xDrive, Don't you think? They don't claim the transmission is better shifting than previous generation. It is presumably due to legal reasons.

2014: BMW M markets the shit out of CFRP driveshaft in M4, boasting 40% weight reduction in rotating mass.

2017: BMW Group quietly announces on their webpage that M4s from October 2017 will gradually have steel driveshafts, on pretext due to inability to cope with larger diameter exhaust pipes of OPF filters.
Now anyone who took a materials engineering class would know this is pure bs as CFRP composite is able to achieve the same torsional stiffness of steel/aluminum alloys at around half the weight given identical dimensions.

2018: BMW M puts ZFat on M5. Some long term owners start to complain its lack of input response.

2019: BMW M does not confirm which "automatic" transmission will be on the G8x M3/M4. But BMW's internal naming clearly differentiates torque converter automatics with dual clutch transmission (look up on dealer system, quite similar to R**loem)

I'm thinking that this is because BMW knows that some customers will immediately move on to Porsche or AMG if they were to offer the same transmission, so they are waiting for the old customers to "accept" that it will likely be automatic transmission. I refuse that, and so should you for a better world.
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      07-26-2019, 05:49 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
I didn't want to write this because it may give BMW marketing unnecessary ideas, but here's what happened the past few years.

2008: Remember how BMW boasted the shit out of consistent less-than-60ms shifting speed of M-DCT back in 2008? They now advertise ZF transmission in M5 as "M sport step-tronic 8 speed automatic transmission" without any of those performance adjectives.
Quite odd for M that likes to boast other technologies like M-xDrive, Don't you think? They don't claim the transmission is better shifting than previous generation. It is presumably due to legal reasons.

2014: BMW M markets the shit out of CFRP driveshaft in M4, boasting 40% weight reduction in rotating mass.

2017: BMW Group quietly announces on their webpage that M4s from October 2017 will gradually have steel driveshafts, on pretext due to inability to cope with larger diameter exhaust pipes of OPF filters.
Now anyone who took a materials engineering class would know this is pure bs as CFRP composite is able to achieve the same torsional stiffness of steel/aluminum alloys at around half the weight given identical dimensions.

2018: BMW M puts ZFat on M5. Long term owners start to complain its lack of input response.

2019: BMW M does not confirm which "automatic" transmission will be on the G8x M3/M4. But since BMW's internal naming clearly differentiates torque converter automatics with dual clutch transmission (look up on dealer system, quite similar to R**loem)

I'm thinking that this is because BMW knows that some customers will immediately move on to Porsche or AMG if they were to offer the same transmission, so they are waiting for the old customers to "accept" that it will likely be automatic transmission. I refuse that, and so should you for a better world.
I agree with most of your statement. I owned F90 M5 and I must say it's not the fastest but it's very close.
They don't advertised because most likely it's not faster. Plus there is cost savings.

I am sure M3 will get similar transmission as M5

About CFRP there has been testing done on torsion tester see below.

Will see if there will be one on new M3/4 i would assume it will sense they know they need to add OPF filter and they should make room.

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      07-27-2019, 12:09 AM   #131
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
The biggest complaint is not about speed but shift feel.

It is nowhere as engaging as the DCT on manual mode. Best performance when left in auto which goes against avid drivers.
Agree with the shift feel comment. I love the ZF auto in my F90. The ONLY think I like better about DCT, which I had in my e92 and F80 M3 is the more violent and aggressive shifts. Other than that, ZF all day long over DCT.
So you like the more violent and aggressive shifts = I LIKE DCT better then the ZF

Your words dude
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      07-28-2019, 04:42 AM   #132
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RIP DCT
I agree however I think it does not matter what technology sits in the box. Is auto transmission good is good that is all auto people (recently me too) care about.
I test drove the new M5 and was impressed. Same with 911 PDK.
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