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      11-26-2015, 06:07 PM   #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP
Agree. We are at the point now that to push the cars to the limit, all wheel drive is needed. I would love this on the F82.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
After so many ponies 2 wheel drive becomes worthless in more ways than one.

Performance based rear biased xDrive with active rear diff makes complete sense to me.
Seems to work just fine for the Z06 and Viper ACR both on track and in a straight line . You just need good traction control systems and wide rubber , with efficient aero for the track . It's no accident that big horsepower rwd cars with aero are the fastest on track by far. People are delusional thinking awd will improve BMW's performance vs the competition . BMW needs to move to a modern double wishbone suspension , and actually make a significantly lighter car . The main reason the M3/4/5/6 have bad traction is the stupidly short gearing to limit the feeling of turbo lag . The reason they get beaten on track is because they are behind on chassis and suspension tech . It's sad day when a ATS-V has a better chassis and suspension than any BMW M car .
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      11-26-2015, 06:47 PM   #464
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      11-26-2015, 09:17 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP
Agree. We are at the point now that to push the cars to the limit, all wheel drive is needed. I would love this on the F82.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
After so many ponies 2 wheel drive becomes worthless in more ways than one.

Performance based rear biased xDrive with active rear diff makes complete sense to me.
Seems to work just fine for the Z06 and Viper ACR both on track and in a straight line . You just need good traction control systems and wide rubber , with efficient aero for the track . It's no accident that big horsepower rwd cars with aero are the fastest on track by far. People are delusional thinking awd will improve BMW's performance vs the competition . BMW needs to move to a modern double wishbone suspension , and actually make a significantly lighter car . The main reason the M4/5/6 have bad traction is the stupidly short gearing to limit the feeling of turbo lag . The reason they get beaten on track is because they are behind on chassis and suspension tech . It's sad day when a ATS-V has a better chassis and suspension than any BMW M car .
People are buying these car for real world performance not for a track rat. Viper is a track rat. Nothing more.
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      11-26-2015, 10:42 PM   #466
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Weight reduction and better rubber are going to be very important for the upcoming gen. The LaFerrari at 950+ horses is also rwd, so, the too much power to two wheels argument is kind of a no-op. I'm also hoping the exhaust is better (like the amg gts) and we'll finally have skinny lighter seats in the M5/6 and an all cf roof. At the moment, there's still nothing else that can do e'thing my M5 does better than the beast. //M are their own competition. As far as the M6, I hope they pull out all the stops for the next gen. They could make serious $$ if they get that right.
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      11-26-2015, 11:11 PM   #467
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Actually you'll see more M5's on the road if it becomes AWD. Also that performance AWD will trickle down to all models. It is called progress.
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      11-26-2015, 11:29 PM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blubaron79
Actually you'll see more M5's on the road if it becomes AWD. Also that performance AWD will trickle down to all models. It is called progress.
AWD as an option would be nice for snowy areas but not sure if we can necessarily tag it as "progress".
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      11-27-2015, 08:18 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
Actually you'll see more M5's on the road if it becomes AWD. Also that performance AWD will trickle down to all models. It is called progress.
Or if the price came down...
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      11-27-2015, 12:44 PM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmfive
Weight reduction and better rubber are going to be very important for the upcoming gen. The LaFerrari at 950+ horses is also rwd, so, the too much power to two wheels argument is kind of a no-op. I'm also hoping the exhaust is better (like the amg gts) and we'll finally have skinny lighter seats in the M5/6 and an all cf roof. At the moment, there's still nothing else that can do e'thing my M5 does better than the beast. //M are their own competition. As far as the M6, I hope they pull out all the stops for the next gen. They could make serious $$ if they get that right.
LaFerrari has two e-motors there to help perform that magic. Its also is riding on a full CF Tub and the balance is spot on.

Another league entirely.
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      11-27-2015, 12:48 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmfive
Weight reduction and better rubber are going to be very important for the upcoming gen. The LaFerrari at 950+ horses is also rwd, so, the too much power to two wheels argument is kind of a no-op. I'm also hoping the exhaust is better (like the amg gts) and we'll finally have skinny lighter seats in the M5/6 and an all cf roof. At the moment, there's still nothing else that can do e'thing my M5 does better than the beast. //M are their own competition. As far as the M6, I hope they pull out all the stops for the next gen. They could make serious $$ if they get that right.
LaFerrari has two e-motors there to help perform that magic. Its also is riding on a full CF Tub and the balance is spot on.

Another league entirely.
50-50 weight. Power is directly over the drive wheels. Agreed.
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      11-27-2015, 04:46 PM   #472
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Saw some LCI 4ers today on transport outside of Frankfurt, didn't notice them until I was half way past since it was only the bumpers and lights. They were estoril blue, so probably the M Sport bumpers.
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      11-27-2015, 07:28 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
Saw some LCI 4ers today on transport outside of Frankfurt, didn't notice them until I was half way past since it was only the bumpers and lights. They were estoril blue, so probably the M Sport bumpers.
The front or rear of the car? If rear, did it have OLED?
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      11-27-2015, 11:53 PM   #474
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I'm so disappointed in bmw lately. I'm not sure whats worse, the numbers on the cars or the design language? Besides the 6 series and i8, I dislike most of them due to their design and what they have done to the M models. Originality is gone, bmw wants more mainstream customers and can not keep their promise for their 25 year old enthusiasts. Game and intention has changed in this brand and for the first time I'm looking across the road at Mercedes AMG.
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      11-28-2015, 02:28 AM   #475
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Quote:
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The front or rear of the car? If rear, did it have OLED?
Both the front and rear bumpers had camo. They were toward at the front and on the bottom of the carrier and I couldn't get a good look at the lights.
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      11-28-2015, 11:59 AM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36mmm View Post
I'm so disappointed in bmw lately. I'm not sure whats worse, the numbers on the cars or the design language? Besides the 6 series and i8, I dislike most of them due to their design and what they have done to the M models. Originality is gone, bmw wants more mainstream customers and can not keep their promise for their 25 year old enthusiasts. Game and intention has changed in this brand and for the first time I'm looking across the road at Mercedes AMG.
BMW is a mainstream albeit premium brand. Mainstream customers are a significant demographic to not just BMW but to all manufacturers.
Today an enthusiast relates to around 10-20% of global sales annually,to rely solely on enthusiast sales is no longer applicable for any manufacturer.

The rules of engagement have changed, sports cars no longer rule as the SUV is the no 1 best selling global segment and all manufacturers are competing in that segment. If you think it is just BMW then look around at everybody else.

Mercedes bringing more SUVs, Porsche went mainstream with the Cayenne and Panamera and a smaller SUV is planned below the Macan. And Audi are the same. People need to stop singling out BMW when everybody else is following suit because a business needs new customers and with that they need appealing product. Product that must be competitive,flexible and appealing to new customers.
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      11-28-2015, 12:40 PM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW is a mainstream albeit premium brand. Mainstream customers are a significant demographic to not just BMW but to all manufacturers.
Today an enthusiast relates to around 10-20% of global sales annually,to rely solely on enthusiast sales is no longer applicable for any manufacturer.
Relying solely on enthusiast sales never was possible of course. The problem with BMW circa 2015 is they've let go of what made them great which started for real with the insight of Max Hoffman and are now building a financialized product for mass consumption which has created the LexusMW on the low end (F30) and AMG-MW on the high end (F10 M5). As always, the hubris of product planning organizations is ruling the roost there today which of course will come back to bite them as we approach the next discontinuity in the marketplace. In the meantime, the unabashed arrogance prevails to attack anyone who voices any criticism, constructive or not, to be immediately shouted down. All the voices are "wrong" and "not to be listened to" -- all the signs of a general fighting the last battle while believing he/she is invincible.
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      11-28-2015, 03:35 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36mmm
I'm so disappointed in bmw lately. I'm not sure whats worse, the numbers on the cars or the design language? Besides the 6 series and i8, I dislike most of them due to their design and what they have done to the M models. Originality is gone, bmw wants more mainstream customers and can not keep their promise for their 25 year old enthusiasts. Game and intention has changed in this brand and for the first time I'm looking across the road at Mercedes AMG.
That's because AMG will not change the base-stock formula that is apart of every model. A hand built bestoke engine that 1 man is responsible for and signs his name accordingly. What a concept. True Passion !
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      11-28-2015, 11:55 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW is a mainstream albeit premium brand. Mainstream customers are a significant demographic to not just BMW but to all manufacturers.
Today an enthusiast relates to around 10-20% of global sales annually,to rely solely on enthusiast sales is no longer applicable for any manufacturer.

The rules of engagement have changed, sports cars no longer rule as the SUV is the no 1 best selling global segment and all manufacturers are competing in that segment. If you think it is just BMW then look around at everybody else.

Mercedes bringing more SUVs, Porsche went mainstream with the Cayenne and Panamera and a smaller SUV is planned below the Macan. And Audi are the same. People need to stop singling out BMW when everybody else is following suit because a business needs new customers and with that they need appealing product. Product that must be competitive,flexible and appealing to new customers.
Perfectly reasonable. You fail to realize that many brands also offer REAL choices for their enthusiasts. Porsche still has the Boxster/Cayman/911 and are very much on form, however, the Panamera, the Macan, and the Cayenne are also BENCHMARKS in the way they perform. Mercedes has been on their game lately with all their cars, especially with the C Class, and even Jaguar with their delving into mainstream with the XE and the F Pace has the almighty F Type and the fun XJ. Mazda's cars are so so fun, and Audi sure makes some cool cars too. How about Lexus and how nice they drive now? The list keeps going. I mean really. I own an E38 M Sport package and it drives SO much better and more enjoyably than my newer F02 7. The stereo kicks ass, the car is made impeccably, sounds great, feels special, looks amazing, it manages to handle telepathically but ride soft enough with great feedback, and everything feels so solid. Hop into my new 7 and it feels like a shadow of all that. I've watched you over the years try to keep pushing the forum into the BMW marketers' direction and stick up for all their decisions, but the fact remains that they can appeal to niches without sucking the life out of the cars. The cars are pigs.

The C class feels like a million dollars inside, while the 3 series feels like an economy car. Why? They're investing all the R&D into the wonderful EPS setup on the F30? Also, why does the C handle better than the benchmark? Why is it SUCH a nicer car in so many ways? I've driven them both, by the way. Do you realize that the 3, 5, and 7 have lost more and more comparison tests because other cars simply drove better? The IS and GS Lexus come to mind. Reviewers are now PRAISING lots of EPS setups, saying that they can't even tell that the steering is electric, meanwhile the Ultimate Driving Machine still feels like a damn golf cart. Do people even remember that the 7 still exists? Then BMW claims this revolutionary new 7 series that looks almost identical to the ugly boat that it replaces! As a long time admirer of the brand, I've given up trying to explain my passion to other people because people have adopted the new "luxury, popular, affordable leases, and mainstream" status of the new BMW, not the "insanely fun, passionate and 'cool'" BMW there once was. It's embarrassing for all three parties.

I'm not trying to grill you personally, Scott, but I highly disagree from a sensible point of view. I realize that BMW can't offer only the e46 M3 to all of its customers, but why can't the cars drive like the magical BMWs did? Why can't they look sharp and polarizing like they used to in the 80/90s? Why do the cars have so much body roll? The list goes on. I don't know.
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      11-29-2015, 05:11 AM   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentium
AWD M5?
I have to say I find it quite weird how a company as successful and as reputable as BMW can't offer all options everywhere for special order. There are loads of people in the US who will want RWD as there will be in Europe. In the same way they want Alpina.

I want the option of an Auxiliary heater but this isn't offered or mentioned in the UK; stiff upper lip, cold hands and squinting through the frosty glass will have to do this winter.



(PS To continue the subject of BMW following other manufacturers, whilst I love the look of the i8 there still seems to be a performance gap at the top which M could fill nicely, where Audi have their v10, Merc their GT and Porsche their Turbo S... Just saying!)
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      11-29-2015, 07:52 AM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1 View Post
Perfectly reasonable. You fail to realize that many brands also offer REAL choices for their enthusiasts. Porsche still has the Boxster/Cayman/911 and are very much on form, however, the Panamera, the Macan, and the Cayenne are also BENCHMARKS in the way they perform. Mercedes has been on their game lately with all their cars, especially with the C Class, and even Jaguar with their delving into mainstream with the XE and the F Pace has the almighty F Type and the fun XJ. Mazda's cars are so so fun, and Audi sure makes some cool cars too. How about Lexus and how nice they drive now? The list keeps going. I mean really. I own an E38 M Sport package and it drives SO much better and more enjoyably than my newer F02 7. The stereo kicks ass, the car is made impeccably, sounds great, feels special, looks amazing, it manages to handle telepathically but ride soft enough with great feedback, and everything feels so solid. Hop into my new 7 and it feels like a shadow of all that. I've watched you over the years try to keep pushing the forum into the BMW marketers' direction and stick up for all their decisions, but the fact remains that they can appeal to niches without sucking the life out of the cars. The cars are pigs.

The C class feels like a million dollars inside, while the 3 series feels like an economy car. Why? They're investing all the R&D into the wonderful EPS setup on the F30? Also, why does the C handle better than the benchmark? Why is it SUCH a nicer car in so many ways? I've driven them both, by the way. Do you realize that the 3, 5, and 7 have lost more and more comparison tests because other cars simply drove better? The IS and GS Lexus come to mind. Reviewers are now PRAISING lots of EPS setups, saying that they can't even tell that the steering is electric, meanwhile the Ultimate Driving Machine still feels like a damn golf cart. Do people even remember that the 7 still exists? Then BMW claims this revolutionary new 7 series that looks almost identical to the ugly boat that it replaces! As a long time admirer of the brand, I've given up trying to explain my passion to other people because people have adopted the new "luxury, popular, affordable leases, and mainstream" status of the new BMW, not the "insanely fun, passionate and 'cool'" BMW there once was. It's embarrassing for all three parties.

I'm not trying to grill you personally, Scott, but I highly disagree from a sensible point of view. I realize that BMW can't offer only the e46 M3 to all of its customers, but why can't the cars drive like the magical BMWs did? Why can't they look sharp and polarizing like they used to in the 80/90s? Why do the cars have so much body roll? The list goes on. I don't know.
you spoke.
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      11-29-2015, 09:01 AM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1 View Post
I'm not trying to grill you personally, Scott, but I highly disagree from a sensible point of view. I realize that BMW can't offer only the e46 M3 to all of its customers, but why can't the cars drive like the magical BMWs did? Why can't they look sharp and polarizing like they used to in the 80/90s? Why do the cars have so much body roll? The list goes on. I don't know.
Very good points - and I think the answer is because they want to be Toyota or VW, albeit at a higher price point. That's why the newer cars sort of blend in with everything else...because that's the idea - they will then appeal to a greater and greater % of the population. If you take the badge off a Camry and a 320i, can you really tell much of a difference, from a drive perspective? I know I can't, and yes I have driven both.

Additionally, I am not sure I agree with SCOTT's argument that a business always needs to enter new segments or attract completely new customers - that is a model of a business seeking growth. Yes, all businesses want to grow, but BMW has taken that basic concept and applied it in a very aggressive manner, repercussions be damned with their core customers. And the plan is working if you base the consideration upon sales numbers - they have never been better.

But the company has also lost its way, so to speak, with the core values and attributes that once made them who they are. They try to hide the loss of the chassis and handling magic of the past with more BHP. Just give it more BHP...lol...It is why I left the brand...I had purchased 5 BMWs in a row and the 5th was the worst one I had owned or driven...and the body roll and overall squishyness were the main reasons why.
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      11-29-2015, 02:47 PM   #483
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      11-29-2015, 04:13 PM   #484
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It is interesting to see that Porsche still does their exclusive sports cars amongst the mainstream yet BMW does not? Then what is the M2 or even the M4 GTS?
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