[samchoi604]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Yes, fully agree. I spent an hour yesterday looking at the best of the best members here cherished, e36 e46 and so on, specifically their dimensions. The main thing that comes to mind is that we have to adjust our mindset as to BMW design roadmap, as they will not do the opposite. More specifically, whatever they are doing to the 3 series is irrelevant because whatever BMW owners want to see in terms of sportiness and feel is embodied in the M2x / M2 series. The dimensions speak volumes: current M240 and M2 are bigger, sleeker and far more potent than the 33x e4x series were, and have displaced what the 3 series in scope. The 3 series is now bigger than 5 series 15 years ago, lighter and more powerful, and are becoming comfort oriented beasts.

So the argument I here often amongst people, that the 2 series are too small, the 3 series too soft and that e46 were awesome (which they were), does not change that the next gen 2 series is what many wanted from a 3 series post e30 generation, powerful, dynamic, and sporty. And since the 2 series are incher wider and longer than the e30 series, it boils down to going one series down in order to retain the driving feel.

But as much as the G20 may be carbon evolutionary, less weight etc, the dimensions suggest it has to be somewhat less sporty than prev gen, and it will have a bigger floatier feel.

was going to post the same thing. The new G20 from the picture seems noticeably bigger than the already big F30, and this pisses me off. Last time I checked, roads and parking stalls are NOT becoming bigger, so why do they keep upping the size? The new G20 will probably be close to the 5 series 3 generations ago.

For those of us who want 4 doors but are not always carrying 3 adults in the back, we still have options like the S3 and CLA45.. but BMW is absent in this high demand market without a 2 series sedan. Either STOP making the 3 series into a Camry, or give us a 2 series sedan.

[EMpunker]

Originally Posted by samchoi604

was going to post the same thing. The new G20 from the picture seems noticeably bigger than the already big F30, and this pisses me off. Last time I checked, roads and parking stalls are NOT becoming bigger, so why do they keep upping the size? The new G20 will probably be close to the 5 series 3 generations ago.

For those of us who want 4 doors but are not always carrying 3 adults in the back, we still have options like the S3 and CLA45.. but BMW is absent in this high demand market without a 2 series sedan. Either STOP making the 3 series into a Camry, or give us a 2 series sedan.

+1

And make an M variant!

[goj]

Originally Posted by samchoi604

was going to post the same thing. The new G20 from the picture seems noticeably bigger than the already big F30, and this pisses me off. Last time I checked, roads and parking stalls are NOT becoming bigger, so why do they keep upping the size? The new G20 will probably be close to the 5 series 3 generations ago.

For those of us who want 4 doors but are not always carrying 3 adults in the back, we still have options like the S3 and CLA45.. but BMW is absent in this high demand market without a 2 series sedan. Either STOP making the 3 series into a Camry, or give us a 2 series sedan.

Noticeably bigger? What side by side comparison might you be referring to. I think you're trying to see what you want to see for the sake of complaining. Try not to be so melodramatic. The 3 is no longer the baby bimmer. The "baby bimmer recipe has not changed.

[c63er]

Damn it's huge. This is just nuts.

It's clear bmw gives a damn about sport sedan enthusiasts of yore. Where do we go since no one gives a damn about us lol

I'm making the prediction now. This car will be a shocking failure for bmw leading to further platform collaborations with other manufacturers. This car will be a failure because it's physically impossible for a car of this size with mainstream amenities and engines can be any kind of fun. A 3 series that is not fun will not have any competitive advantage over a c class or a4

[goj]

Originally Posted by c63er

Damn it's huge. This is just nuts.

It's clear bmw gives a damn about sport sedan enthusiasts of yore. Where do we go since no one gives a damn about us lol

I'm making the prediction now. This car will be a shocking failure for bmw leading to further platform collaborations with other manufacturers. This car will be a failure because it's physically impossible for a car of this size with mainstream amenities and engines can be any kind of fun. A 3 series that is not fun will not have any competitive advantage over a c class or a4

You're declaring a failure over 2 years before it's announced? good for you

[GTATX]

I am very disappointed looking at the interior. E46 interior was amazing, e90 not so much then the f30 I think ruined it and this going down the same line. F10 interior was a good modern compromise but f30 reminded me of late 90s civic interior

[Pinkoboe]

Originally Posted by c63er

Damn it's huge. This is just nuts.

It's clear bmw gives a damn about sport sedan enthusiasts of yore. Where do we go since no one gives a damn about us lol

I'm making the prediction now. This car will be a shocking failure for bmw leading to further platform collaborations with other manufacturers. This car will be a failure because it's physically impossible for a car of this size with mainstream amenities and engines can be any kind of fun. A 3 series that is not fun will not have any competitive advantage over a c class or a4

Or it will repeat the sales success of the F30 by being larger and softer than its predecessor, with super safe evolutionary styling. The masses love stuff like that.

BMW has abandoned its enthusiast core to appeal to the masses, and the sales numbers show it's working. There are just a lot more people that like to show off their sporty looking BMW than enthusiasts that derive pleasure from driving.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why BMW does not have a track or zhp, or M-performance package that includes a non wallowy suspension and a steering system that feels like it is actually connected to the front wheels. Make a soft luxury version for the masses, and everyone is happy.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by samchoi604

... The new G20 from the picture seems noticeably bigger than the already big F30, and this pisses me off. Last time I checked, roads and parking stalls are NOT becoming bigger, so why do they keep upping the size? The new G20 will probably be close to the 5 series 3 generations ago.

For those of us who want 4 doors but are not always carrying 3 adults in the back, we still have options like the S3 and CLA45.. but BMW is absent in this high demand market without a 2 series sedan. Either STOP making the 3 series into a Camry, or give us a 2 series sedan.

Agree. I think there are at least two ways of looking at the G-generation:

"There will be a stronger family resemblance between the G-generation 7, 5, and 3-Series."
- Glass-is-half-full people

"The G-generation 3-Series is a 5-Series wannabe. And the 5-series is a 7-Series wannabe."
- Glass-is-half-empty people

As for the steady increase in size, I call it the "Mercedes syndrome."
For decades, the competing Mercedes models have always been slightly bigger.
BMW fell for that bait and kept increasing the sizes of their cars, up and down the line.

And something else to think about:
The 3-Series has been BMW's bread-and-butter sales volume leader for quite a number of years.
But the 5-Series has earned the most revenue for BMW for quite a number of years.
Don't forget these facts.

[Bmw doubles]

Body roll for days

[spuntyb]

I lost interest when they said they weren't sending us the wagon.

I see an AMG wagon in my future...

[JunkStory]

Originally Posted by goj

Noticeably bigger? What side by side comparison might you be referring to. I think you're trying to see what you want to see for the sake of complaining. Try not to be so melodramatic. The 3 is no longer the baby bimmer. The "baby bimmer recipe has not changed.

they fitted the f80 m3's 18 inch wheels into one of the previous g20 test mules, and even with beefy tires, they looked small and barely filled the wheel gap. It may be too early to tell but all signs point to new vehicles becoming bigger. There is no denying that.

[tetsuo111]

BMW builds another fatso.

Rumored details and technologies for the G20 include:
Longer wheelbase
Wider track


Bye bye BMW. You were beautiful in your youth, but let yourself go in middle age. You were athletic, energetic, and agile, with a few rough edges. Sadly, after you made some money, you aged into a soft, fat, big, plush, ostentatious luxo barge, "smartphone on wheels (BMWs description, not mine) like the old Cadillac.

But there's hope. Caddy aged extraordinarily gracefully. Elegant (but she's not as good looking as the youthful BMWs IMO) but through discipline and exercise, a lot of hard work, and sense of purpose, Caddy now runs circles around the tired, boring, ugly German car.

Trends swing. There was a time when German cars were indisputably the best in the world, and American cars, not so much. Those days are past. In the 80s I had to explain to friends and neighbors why I chose German cars. Just like you would need to explain today why you chose a Caddy over the safe / conventional (but boring) BMW.

These aren't your father's BMWs.

[nanceman]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

BMW creates another fatso.

Rumored details and technologies for the G20 include:
Longer wheelbase
Wider track


Bye bye BMW. You were beautiful in your youth, but let yourself go in middle age. You used to be athletic, energetic, and agile, with a few rough edges. Sadly, you aged into a soft, fat, big, plush, luxo barge, "smartphone on wheels (BMWs description, not mine) like the old Cadillac.

But there's hope. Caddy aged extraordinarily well. She's not as good looking as the youthful BMWs IMO, but through discipline and exercise, a lot of hard work, and sense of purpose, Caddy now runs circles around the tired, boring German car.

Trends swing. There was a time when German cars were indisputably the best in the world, and American cars, not so much. Those days are past.

Testify. I'm beyond hopeful but know it's hoping for the impossible. I admit at this point if they could make it a reincarnation of the E39 (with I6 turbo to replace the V8) I would be beyond happy though.

[goj]

Originally Posted by JunkStory

they fitted the f80 m3's 18 inch wheels into one of the previous g20 test mules, and even with beefy tires, they looked small and barely filled the wheel gap. It may be too early to tell but all signs point to new vehicles becoming bigger. There is no denying that.

I'm just saying, there is so much negativity about this when we don't even know how the new 5 series drives. The three is not the baby bimmer anymore. There is so much judgement based on a camo'd up, parts bin mule and I don't understand it. All it will take is steering tuned for more feel and everyone will be "BMW is back" at this stage no one knows much about it other than General goals BMW is trying to achieve. But this just like any other forum on cars seems to be a congregation of negative people who think they can make conclusions from a few pics on their phone screen

[Jblack4083]

Originally Posted by goj

You're declaring a failure over 2 years before it's announced? good for you

I was also wondering how he was able to judge the car 2 years in advance lol.

And he also says it as if the C-class and A4 are even close to being fun.

The C-class with it's old Buick style steering column gear shifter. The A4, a Volkswagen in a fancy shell

On first glance, the car appears larger. I agree. But i'll hold out for the final result before labeling it a failure.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by unit

Or it will repeat the sales success of the F30 by being larger and softer than its predecessor, with super safe evolutionary styling. The masses love stuff like that.

BMW has abandoned its enthusiast core to appeal to the masses, and the sales numbers show it's working. There are just a lot more people that like to show off their sporty looking BMW than enthusiasts that derive pleasure from driving.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why BMW does not have a track or zhp, or M-performance package that includes a non wallowy suspension and a steering system that feels like it is actually connected to the front wheels. Make a soft luxury version for the masses, and everyone is happy.

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

I was also wondering how he was able to judge the car 2 years in advance lol.

And he also says it as if the C-class and A4 are even close to being fun.

The C-class with it's old Buick style steering column gear shifter. The A4, a Volkswagen in a fancy shell

On first glance, the car appears larger. I agree. But i'll hold out for the final result before labeling it a failure.

But that's the very problem you so quaintly dismiss.

If a bmw is not considered the fun drivers car and just a larger more comfort oriented car designed to appeal to the masses, then what is it about the car that will actually draw the masses in this direction rather then to a c class or an a4?

I would imagine it would end up being an even 3 way split. More like 5 way if you include the Koreans. In that scenario it will be a loss in sales for bmw. A loss in 3 series sales would be devastating.

Don't forget. When us fanboys stop lauding the bmw as the ultimate driving machine then that filters down to the masses.

[Pinkoboe]

Originally Posted by goj

I'm just saying, there is so much negativity about this when we don't even know how the new 5 series drives. The three is not the baby bimmer anymore. There is so much judgement based on a camo'd up, parts bin mule and I don't understand it. All it will take is steering tuned for more feel and everyone will be "BMW is back" at this stage no one knows much about it other than General goals BMW is trying to achieve. But this just like any other forum on cars seems to be a congregation of negative people who think they can make conclusions from a few pics on their phone screen

One of the head engineers for the G30 five series has openly said that BMW is actively working to remove feedback from their steering systems, because that is what their customers want. There is little or actually no hope of classic BMW handling and feedback returning to the G20 or G30. This is not speculation but a fact.

[Pinkoboe]

Originally Posted by c63er

But that's the very problem you so quaintly dismiss.

If a bmw is not considered the fun drivers car and just a larger more comfort oriented car designed to appeal to the masses, then what is it about the car that will actually draw the masses in this direction rather then to a c class or an a4?

I would imagine it would end up being an even 3 way split. More like 5 way if you include the Koreans. In that scenario it will be a loss in sales for bmw. A loss in 3 series sales would be devastating.

Don't forget. When us fanboys stop lauding the bmw as the ultimate driving machine then that filters down to the masses.

This plan will work until it doesn't. I agree with you that BMW's reputation was built by a devoted fan base with great word of mouth from hardcore owners and the press. They are riding those coat tails for now, but that will not last forever.

It will catch up with them.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Pentium

lol man why so harsh on F30? it not that bad

Well it's certainly closer to a Toyota from behind the wheel than a BMW.

[JunkStory]

Originally Posted by unit

This plan will work until it doesn't. I agree with you that BMW's reputation was built by a devoted fan base with great word of mouth from hardcore owners and the press. They are riding those coat tails for now, but that will not last forever.

It will catch up with them.

Sale numbers in the US have already shown that their formula of creating the F lineup has failed. Yet they are continuing down this path. Year-to-date sales of the 3 German makers:

YTD BMW -9.6%
YTD Audi +2.9%
YTD Mercedes Benz +0.7%

Like you said, they've already lost the devoted fan base and their word of mouth. But some people will continue to drink the bavarian koolaid and think that everything is fine and dandy.

[Nomana]

Why indicator blink button need to be that big?:

[paul223]

Originally Posted by samchoi604

was going to post the same thing. The new G20 from the picture seems noticeably bigger than the already big F30, and this pisses me off. Last time I checked, roads and parking stalls are NOT becoming bigger, so why do they keep upping the size? The new G20 will probably be close to the 5 series 3 generations ago.

For those of us who want 4 doors but are not always carrying 3 adults in the back, we still have options like the S3 and CLA45.. but BMW is absent in this high demand market without a 2 series sedan. Either STOP making the 3 series into a Camry, or give us a 2 series sedan.

I agree with you. I manage hotels. People are getting increasingly getting fatter, so bigger and comfortable car make sense.