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Technical Topics iDrive, Nav, Phone, Audio, Video, Cameras, Electronics Other brands going all touchscreen - how do we stop BMW?

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      08-17-2020, 04:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bpu View Post
My question, how do we convince BMW that this is a big differentiator for them and they should stick with it? I think superior ergonomics and ease of use has always been a highlight of theirs and it'd be terrible if they abandoned this setup and copied the other brands. Once every car just has a giant touchscreen inside there is very little to set them apart or make them feel special. So far everything they've released has been very good, but these 2 Series Active Tourer spy shots indicate they are toying with that direction as well.
I'm with you 110%!! A car should be as safe to operate inside as it is on the outside. The inherent danger and complete lack of action by regulatory bodies to combat this is appalling and will only get worse over time as the practice spreads like cancer all over the industry.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I strongly feel that iDrive's days are numbered, and I am as cranky about it as you. Screens are an easy way to say, "wow, look at us, we are so in tune with technology!" Please see this early example of this concept - this is the original Cadillac CTS-V interior:



That giant tall and rectangular center stack was intended to remind people of a PC tower! Here's the Model 3, the times may have changed but Elon again wanted to drive that connection to a tablet computer because its a symbol of the advancement of the times:



The traditional approach to luxury refinement and differentiating by feel is all but gone. The move to full touchscreens is endemic of the sickness infecting BMW of late, a move to follow the herd rather than blaze a path. BMW used to lead the charge and the others followed, now BMW is doing the following.

The F-series BMW interiors married the screen with the traditional layout very well. The G-series has improved the usability overall but has become lost in design rather than function. Simple example, F10 M5 vs 2020 F90 M5:





To BMW's credit, most elements of iDrive 7 have drastically improved from iDrive 6 in my experience. However I detest the new design-focused, cluttered, almost completely non-customizable instrument cluster. The old one was an elegant marvel of simplicity and information density that set the standard for years. And later when they began adding digital elements, they did so without losing this key feature. Here's three M5's, an E39 M5, an F10 M5 and the pre-2020 full analog flatscreen on the F90. Note here, as a full digital display there is literally NOTHING keeping BMW from offering this view as an option!







The doubling down on this and similar design elements, coupled with the doubling down on controversial design elements, and insultingly feeding us piece after piece until we choke and say, "wow, that's not as bad as I thought!" makes me feel that this regime at BMW is more interested in swallowing quick sales than in nurturing goodwill and long-standing relationships.

The engineers ironically haven't been torpedoed by this, just design and marketing. It's no mistake to say that BMW still drives very well and dynamically still shoots for driver engagement. But it's also clear that engineering seems to have less and less of a say. When the Ergonomics Product Planner at BMW gets told, "hey, we need to have a touchscreen only iDrive", they will do their best to get it to a good level but it will never be as safe as a system managed by feel.

I'm drawing the line here. I buy BMW for many reasons but one of them is superlative active and passive safety.
How can you champion a safe car when operating a key system in it is by definition unsafe?

I expect I will be keeping my M340i a long time, and then either moving to electric with stronger and trusted autonomy features to allow for inherent touchscreen distraction, or simply go back in time on my purchases rather than forward.
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      08-17-2020, 05:47 PM   #24
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I have a proposition. We can make petition for BMW to keep all essentials ex. iDrive, direct controls for main functions, ergonomics, driving feel, steering feel, manual gearbox for sport models, not to make Asian market design for EU and US (rear lights for G Series). If Asian market wants big screens and kitsch design I respect that, they can make different layout for Asia. I do not want to BMW looks like KIA or something worse. We want mean and good design, original BMW design. If Asia want something different it is ok. It is huge market, they can make models for them. We need a petition because BMW must know what their fans and long term customers want. They are not sure about this my friends. Hey, they made FWD 1 series that looks like Ford Focus from 50 meters. Who knows when the time will come to see FWD 3 series with some Asian design rear lights and one square meter LCD dash board.
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      08-19-2020, 11:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -EndOfAnEra- View Post
I'm with you 110%!! A car should be as safe to operate inside as it is on the outside. The inherent danger and complete lack of action by regulatory bodies to combat this is appalling and will only get worse over time as the practice spreads like cancer all over the industry.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I strongly feel that iDrive's days are numbered, and I am as cranky about it as you. Screens are an easy way to say, "wow, look at us, we are so in tune with technology!" Please see this early example of this concept - this is the original Cadillac CTS-V interior:



That giant tall and rectangular center stack was intended to remind people of a PC tower! Here's the Model 3, the times may have changed but Elon again wanted to drive that connection to a tablet computer because its a symbol of the advancement of the times:



The traditional approach to luxury refinement and differentiating by feel is all but gone. The move to full touchscreens is endemic of the sickness infecting BMW of late, a move to follow the herd rather than blaze a path. BMW used to lead the charge and the others followed, now BMW is doing the following.

The F-series BMW interiors married the screen with the traditional layout very well. The G-series has improved the usability overall but has become lost in design rather than function. Simple example, F10 M5 vs 2020 F90 M5:





To BMW's credit, most elements of iDrive 7 have drastically improved from iDrive 6 in my experience. However I detest the new design-focused, cluttered, almost completely non-customizable instrument cluster. The old one was an elegant marvel of simplicity and information density that set the standard for years. And later when they began adding digital elements, they did so without losing this key feature. Here's three M5's, an E39 M5, an F10 M5 and the pre-2020 full analog flatscreen on the F90. Note here, as a full digital display there is literally NOTHING keeping BMW from offering this view as an option!







The doubling down on this and similar design elements, coupled with the doubling down on controversial design elements, and insultingly feeding us piece after piece until we choke and say, "wow, that's not as bad as I thought!" makes me feel that this regime at BMW is more interested in swallowing quick sales than in nurturing goodwill and long-standing relationships.

The engineers ironically haven't been torpedoed by this, just design and marketing. It's no mistake to say that BMW still drives very well and dynamically still shoots for driver engagement. But it's also clear that engineering seems to have less and less of a say. When the Ergonomics Product Planner at BMW gets told, "hey, we need to have a touchscreen only iDrive", they will do their best to get it to a good level but it will never be as safe as a system managed by feel.

I'm drawing the line here. I buy BMW for many reasons but one of them is superlative active and passive safety.
How can you champion a safe car when operating a key system in it is by definition unsafe?

I expect I will be keeping my M340i a long time, and then either moving to electric with stronger and trusted autonomy features to allow for inherent touchscreen distraction, or simply go back in time on my purchases rather than forward.
Very well said. When you follow the pack you lose any distinction. There are ways to incorporate new technology and design while upholding your values and executing what you're great at. To date, they've done that exceedingly well. But the industry trends are worrying.

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Originally Posted by oz555 View Post
I have a proposition. We can make petition for BMW to keep all essentials ex. iDrive, direct controls for main functions, ergonomics, driving feel, steering feel, manual gearbox for sport models, not to make Asian market design for EU and US (rear lights for G Series). If Asian market wants big screens and kitsch design I respect that, they can make different layout for Asia. I do not want to BMW looks like KIA or something worse. We want mean and good design, original BMW design. If Asia want something different it is ok. It is huge market, they can make models for them. We need a petition because BMW must know what their fans and long term customers want. They are not sure about this my friends. Hey, they made FWD 1 series that looks like Ford Focus from 50 meters. Who knows when the time will come to see FWD 3 series with some Asian design rear lights and one square meter LCD dash board.
I'm not sure which type of feedback method is actually best. I've definitely provided this type of feedback through ShareYourThoughts and phone. They say they pass this along to product teams but who really knows. How do they select customers to reach out to for deeper feedback and product testing?

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Originally Posted by gofast182 View Post
You can reach out to BMW corporate and let them know. Make sure you're buying BMW. Make it known to friends/coworkers the pitfalls of touch screens and the advantage of BMW. Comment on social media posts and reviews of cars. Those are the main things you can do.

I think BMW knows this. When they released the new interior concept with iDrive 7 (including buttons) on the G05 they did it with intentions of it being a corporate design scheme and having it last through the current model cycle of new vehicles, at least 5-6 years into the future.

Our personal experience; we bought a G05 a couple years ago but before that my wife was sure she wanted a Velar. After driving the Velar, among other things, we didn't like how you had to look down at the touch screen to make sure you're getting the right function and how some functions were in sub-menus which compounded the problem. One of the things we loved about the G05 is that it gives you multiple (often redundant) options for controlling the car: touch screen, iDrive controller, hard buttons, steering wheel controls, voice control, gestures.
Yep, the hard buttons and iDrive knob are so easy and passive to use. It was truly designed for control in a CAR, which is how all of these systems should be. The things you list to do are all correct, the social medial probably the most. It's a lot of work! I wish the corporate teams were more transparent about what they do with the feedback.
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      08-22-2020, 09:24 PM   #26
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I currently have a 2018 S4 and love the car. But Audi decided for 2020 to remove the MMI controller and add a touchscreen. It is ridiculous that they didn't just leave the controller and give you the option to use both. The touchscreen is ok but without the controller it's a deal breaker. Not only did they remove the controller and all the physical switches they replaced them with a worthless storage compartment with no door or anything. It looks like a planter in the middle of the console, super tacky.

Been following the M340 and consider it my number one choice for replacing the S4 when the time comes and having the controller and touchscreen is one feature I really like.

I have never posted on this forum but when I read this thread I had to chime in since I am so mad at Audi for getting rid of the MMI controller.
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      08-23-2020, 07:15 AM   #27
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It's a money saver for manufacturer.
As a safety feature they should leave the knob.
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      08-26-2020, 11:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbpolaris View Post
I currently have a 2018 S4 and love the car. But Audi decided for 2020 to remove the MMI controller and add a touchscreen. It is ridiculous that they didn't just leave the controller and give you the option to use both. The touchscreen is ok but without the controller it's a deal breaker. Not only did they remove the controller and all the physical switches they replaced them with a worthless storage compartment with no door or anything. It looks like a planter in the middle of the console, super tacky.

Been following the M340 and consider it my number one choice for replacing the S4 when the time comes and having the controller and touchscreen is one feature I really like.

I have never posted on this forum but when I read this thread I had to chime in since I am so mad at Audi for getting rid of the MMI controller.
Be sure to let Audi know, and to let BMW know that that was a factor for you if you choose the M340. Only way Audi would ever change is if they receive that sort of feedback.
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      08-26-2020, 11:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz555 View Post
I have a proposition. We can make petition for BMW to keep all essentials ex. iDrive, direct controls for main functions, ergonomics, driving feel, steering feel, manual gearbox for sport models, not to make Asian market design for EU and US (rear lights for G Series). If Asian market wants big screens and kitsch design I respect that, they can make different layout for Asia. I do not want to BMW looks like KIA or something worse. We want mean and good design, original BMW design. If Asia want something different it is ok. It is huge market, they can make models for them. We need a petition because BMW must know what their fans and long term customers want. They are not sure about this my friends. Hey, they made FWD 1 series that looks like Ford Focus from 50 meters. Who knows when the time will come to see FWD 3 series with some Asian design rear lights and one square meter LCD dash board.
Yeah why you don't do that, I will sign it. change.org
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      08-27-2020, 05:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmad View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz555 View Post
I have a proposition. We can make petition for BMW to keep all essentials ex. iDrive, direct controls for main functions, ergonomics, driving feel, steering feel, manual gearbox for sport models, not to make Asian market design for EU and US (rear lights for G Series). If Asian market wants big screens and kitsch design I respect that, they can make different layout for Asia. I do not want to BMW looks like KIA or something worse. We want mean and good design, original BMW design. If Asia want something different it is ok. It is huge market, they can make models for them. We need a petition because BMW must know what their fans and long term customers want. They are not sure about this my friends. Hey, they made FWD 1 series that looks like Ford Focus from 50 meters. Who knows when the time will come to see FWD 3 series with some Asian design rear lights and one square meter LCD dash board.
Yeah why you don't do that, I will sign it. change.org
Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmad View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz555 View Post
I have a proposition. We can make petition for BMW to keep all essentials ex. iDrive, direct controls for main functions, ergonomics, driving feel, steering feel, manual gearbox for sport models, not to make Asian market design for EU and US (rear lights for G Series). If Asian market wants big screens and kitsch design I respect that, they can make different layout for Asia. I do not want to BMW looks like KIA or something worse. We want mean and good design, original BMW design. If Asia want something different it is ok. It is huge market, they can make models for them. We need a petition because BMW must know what their fans and long term customers want. They are not sure about this my friends. Hey, they made FWD 1 series that looks like Ford Focus from 50 meters. Who knows when the time will come to see FWD 3 series with some Asian design rear lights and one square meter LCD dash board.
Yeah why you don't do that, I will sign it. change.org
I will. As soon as possible. Thanks for the link.
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      08-27-2020, 07:06 PM   #31
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I will. As soon as possible. Thanks for the link.
I would do myself too it but english is not my native language so I would rather someone else to do it in order to not have redaction mistakes.

Would you mind posting the link if do create a petition?
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      08-31-2020, 03:01 PM   #32
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I have taken solace with the fact that eventually I'll just stop buying new cars and secure two forever cars. Something like a next gen M2C and a Toyota forerunner or Landcruiser are the main contenders I have been contemplating. I know the Toyota will last a lifetime.
This is exactly what I did. I bought an M340 plus a Subaru Outback and will run them into the ground. I work in IT and even I dislike this new fascination with full touchscreens. To me it will make cars disposable objects like phones. Imagine what the car you buy today with full touchscreen is going to look like against the refreshed model in 3 years - outdated! I think car companies are moving towards having the screen as a display only and all input done via voice commands which is a shame.
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      08-31-2020, 03:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bris-M340i View Post
This is exactly what I did. I bought an M340 plus a Subaru Outback and will run them into the ground. I work in IT and even I dislike this new fascination with full touchscreens. To me it will make cars disposable objects like phones. Imagine what the car you buy today with full touchscreen is going to look like against the refreshed model in 3 years - outdated! I think car companies are moving towards having the screen as a display only and all input done via voice commands which is a shame.
As an IT myself as well I fully agree. Touchscreen phones were cool at first, and now they are a disposable object no one cares about which is simply tied to your 2 year mobile subscription plan. Don't want a car to feel this way. Cars from the 2000s feel better now than cars from 2010 do, simply because they were nice and clever and now when you go in a 2010 car all you see is the small non functional screen.
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      08-31-2020, 06:40 PM   #34
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As an IT myself as well I fully agree. Touchscreen phones were cool at first, and now they are a disposable object no one cares about which is simply tied to your 2 year mobile subscription plan. Don't want a car to feel this way. Cars from the 2000s feel better now than cars from 2010 do, simply because they were nice and clever and now when you go in a 2010 car all you see is the small non functional screen.
Part of the problem is that most cars today are leased and really are disposable items like phones, because people want to always have the latest and greatest toy.

I read an article that 75% of Audi, 73% of Land Rovers and 72% of BMWs in 2019 were leased.

I wonder what these people trade more frequently, phone, cars, or partners?
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      08-31-2020, 09:39 PM   #35
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Part of the problem is that most cars today are leased and really are disposable items like phones, because people want to always have the latest and greatest toy.

I read an article that 75% of Audi, 73% of Land Rovers and 72% of BMWs in 2019 were leased.

I wonder what these people trade more frequently, phone, cars, or partners?
Haha, good points! Glad I got my M340 before BMW goes down this path as no doubt sales results will dictate their product roadmap. These first generation full touchscreen cars are going to take a while to get the user experience right and in a few years they will completely redesign making the first gen cars worthless in my opinion, just think back to the first iPhone.
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      09-01-2020, 01:52 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Bris-M340i View Post
Haha, good points! Glad I got my M340 before BMW goes down this path as no doubt sales results will dictate their product roadmap. These first generation full touchscreen cars are going to take a while to get the user experience right and in a few years they will completely redesign making the first gen cars worthless in my opinion, just think back to the first iPhone.
First two or three even, let's not forget, it took something like 3 years for touchscreen phones to work properly and car tech has always been slow, as we see a lot of the tech is outdated even at release.
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      09-01-2020, 10:20 AM   #37
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I will sign as well. Touchscreens suck. I've been using the iDrive controller for nearly a decade and can use it without having to look at the screen. You can't do that with a touchscreen, period.
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      09-01-2020, 10:58 AM   #38
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I will sign as well. Touchscreens suck. I've been using the iDrive controller for nearly a decade and can use it without having to look at the screen. You can't do that with a touchscreen, period.
The fact that you have to reach out of your seat to use the screen alone is enough for me.
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      09-03-2020, 03:38 PM   #39
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I don't understand why these manufacturers do not notice that fiddling with changing settings in multiple menus and sub-menus while driving is not safe... How do they not notice this when they design a car? Isn't it against the law to text and drive on a phone (in NYC it is) but car manufacturers feel its ok to go through menus and sub-menus searching to change stuff and take your eyes off the road.
This. It's inefficient, highly distracting and really irritating, not to mention a higher chance to inadvertently press the wrong thing because you're trying to keep your eyes on the damn road. I understand the need for sub-menus for complicated settings and modules, but for basic functions that are in regular use, it's unacceptable. I think these sentiments are pretty universal; haven't met a single person that thinks this transition to form over function for controls is useful or safe. I look at that ridiculous Tesla screen and just don't get what these guys are thinking. Reminds me a bit of Saab's stupid 9000 concept with the joystick instead of a steering wheel.
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      09-04-2020, 01:46 PM   #40
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Merc gets rid of knobs in the new S class. Sad direction of the future.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...lt6quudkme.jpg

I do like how the back wheels turn to steer though...
https://jalopnik.com/this-2021-merce...rok-1844943480
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      06-04-2021, 10:53 AM   #41
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Well, this is only getting worse with the release of the i4 and iX interiors. They still have the iDrive knob, but the iX is all capacitive buttons (steering wheel and center console), the 1-8 favorite buttons are gone, and all the HVAC buttons are gone. Somehow, BMW thinks it's better / easier to have to tap the bottom of the touchscreen to change the temp, and to change fan, seat heat, etc., having to press MENU first and then scroll through the options on the touchscreen. How is this an improvement over the dedicated row of buttons right beneath the vents in current cars? More taps and have to focus on the touchscreen. Plus the big black persistent bar at the bottom of the screen looks terrible. No one could argue this is a usability improvement. It's simply change for change's sake and following awful trends.
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      06-04-2021, 01:50 PM   #42
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Yeah, glad I got a 2021 4 series with iDrive 7. I won't buy an i4 iDrive 8 with this design. (I jumped from Audi, replaced a 2014 also with physical controls,to BMW for the primarily reason that BMW kept the physical controls.)
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